I never realized how much the locals hate Snowmobilers. We came to view this first hand this weekend in Lakes of the North.

I won't go into the details but one of our sleds were damaged by a kid and the father told us that he has no sympathy for us "Snowmobilers" That we were all bad people and deserved whatever happened.

I was floored and pissed.. We had to call the State Police to get this guy to make things right.

While talking with the police they told us how much all the locals hate us "Downstaters" It was a real eye opener.

I think some how we need to go out of our way to show the locals courtesy. Stay out of their yards and off their property. We will loose the battle if we continue to #### them off.

The locals are the ones that vote and control the trails in our recreational areas.. Think about it..

Ya, this is true, but it's also true that we "downstaters" keep their economy alive.

Thats still no excuse for his childish behavior........what a looser

Originally posted by ARCTICZRT600@Jan 21 2003, 03:06 PM
Ya, this is true, but it's also true that we "downstaters" keep their economy alive.
Great point !!!

I can see how a few 'bad apples' spoil it for the majority, but most small towns in Northern Michigan would be dead during the snow season. :(

I live in the eastern u.p. and have a trail that runs through my property and across my drive way. It is nothing to see a couple hundred sleds go by in a day. Most of the people I have talked to are from lower mich and ohio. I would have to say that 90% of the people are nice and very helpful to others. The other 10% are riding across my yard jumping there sleds off the snowbanks in my drive way and throwing garbage on the trail.
What has been said before a few bad apples makes it worse for every one. Like I said 90% of the riders are very nice. I just saw 4 riders "flip off the groomer " as they flew by him. It is this kind of person that hurts this sport.

In our small Ontario, Canada community, I see snowmobiles driving along peoples front lawns so they don't have to drive on the sparsly snow covered sidewalks. I can understand how this ####'s people off. Eventually they will be down to the grass and next summer the property owner will be out there trying to repair his lawn and guess who he is going to be cursing.........not Dave or Steve or Pat or Mark, it will be those ####'n snowmobilers. That's me. I'm a snowmobiler. I don't drive on other peoples property. I am preaching. to my son (18 years old) to stay off peoples front yards. I noticed a couple of posts and pictures of fathers going out with their sons for the first time and I too was there and I enjoyed it (except for the part of digging his sled out of the snow after getting stuck). Thats when you start teaching the rules of responsible snowmobiling. So you fathers of future sled-heads, enjoy your time out with your son and teach him respect for nature and your nieghbor.
Just my input, for what it's worth. SWRules

:withstupid: Advise like that......................priceless!!!!

Well said blackcat. My father taught me respect and yes everyone in my group is to but just one respectful person in a group can influence the group. I may not be from michigan but we go through the same thing every fall with hunters here in ND. Yes our small town 100 people enjoys the extra income and boost to our economy but we don't need it to survive. We can make it without and i'm sure the small towns in MI are the same way. I never use that excuse cause a seasonal sport doesn't make or break a community.

One way i've always though might be a good idea to make things right is in the spring when you pull the signs out maybe we should be doing whatever we can to help restore the lands our trails run over in any way possible, pickup garbage, clean rocks of lawns and such. Just my .02

I can't believe some idiot would actually flip a groomer off...we always make it a point to wave to the groomer and give him a thumb's up, no matter what the trails are lilke. Are you sure they weren't waving to him...that's just assanined (sp) if they were really giving him the bird.

There has to be something we can give back to these communities to show our appreciation, and to make up for the bad apples...hmmmmm....

Your such a nice guy jim :D .....

When my friend went to Wyoming for the first time he noticed some locals from there didn't like snowmobilers. They stopped and asked a guy directions and he themit didn't matter where they were going because they didn't belong out there anyways. It was the first time they had even gone so they didn't do anything wrong. Its just a few giving everyone a bad name.

redF7sp... we have the same problem with lots of out of state hunters, they don't do us any good because we have no hotels or anyting so we don't make money off them in our town.

Frigg i hate people like that. Wish we could a ll get along. I think sometimes people are jealous cause we get to play while they mat be working on that certian day, i dont know but it ticks me off.

RedF7, you are wrong to say that a seasonal sport can't make or break a community. The U.P. is not the same place as ND. Most towns in the UP were founded on mining and lumber, neither of which can support them any more on their own. They get MUCH more snow than ND, and depend on snowmobiling for income. Not just resort and tavern owners, but almost everyone with a business there would be looking for jobs down south, if sledding were gone.

not a problem here in Lanark County (aka Gods Country) :inlove:

There are 2 restaurants and 1 bar that closed within the last few years because of the lack of snow around my place. There is a truth about it F7.

Yes, unfortunately for those folks, it is true to some extent. Just watch and see how many places in these little towns change ownership after a couple bad (lack of snow) winters. At least in the St Germain area, that is pretty evident. And the stores can charge higher than normal prices for items because they know that either the sledders have no other place to shop, or that we won't fuss about prices since we're on vacation. Last week at one stop we paid $1.99/gal for regular gas at the Rainbow Lodge....I don't mind paying a little extra, but I felt like I should have had my pants down and bent over the seat of my sled...OMG!!! :nervous:

Hey jim fritch to make it a little easier bring along a jar of vasaline that will help ya a little bit.

Originally posted by 2002 zr 800 efi@Jan 21 2003, 01:54 PM
Hey jim fritch to make it a little easier bring along a jar of vasaline that will help ya a little bit.
...yeah, I felt like telling the guy to give me a quart of 10w/40 too so I had some lubrication...

if you only paid 1.99 a gal you got off cheap try gas in ny in the tug hill area sometime. It is so high you cant afford the qt of oil for lubrication when you get bent over. ha ha :D

Your right its always that few that give a bad name. I personally am a hunter and visited with many out of state hunters in our area and the majority of them are great people. Yes there are businesses that are going to die without the business but there not the ones that don't appreciate the sledders. Its the other ones the majority of the people that make there living in some other industry that have the voting majority and the majority influence that have to be convinced that were not all bad. Its hard to explain but someone can only take so much before they get fed up even if it is what keeps there business alive. As an examply we have a local gas station that thrives off of snowmobiliers in the winter and hunters in the fall. We were visiting with the manager the other day when we were eating there and she was saying she wished the trail didn't come by there station any more. They had there sewer vent ran over by people riding to close to the building. This fall some out of state hunters shot to close to there place and put wholes through her building. The cost of repairs and the hassel starts to exceed the income. I know this is an odd senario but its an example. We need to show the locals and not just the businesses we patronize that we appreciate and respect them. Our local trail system puts on a supper for everyone that signs a lease for trail property. Its supported by businesses that make a living off the support. Little things like this go a long way in making people feel better. Sorry this got so long.

Originally posted by alindazip@Jan 21 2003, 03:04 PM
1.99 a gal *
OK, I don't want to hear any more about high gas prices south of the border!!!! Your just rubbing it in now!! :(
Try 73 cents a liter (in some places more) for regular gas! 1 gallon = 3.78 liters x .73 = $2.76, plus the fact your dollar is worth more!
I sure do love Canada... but I sure like your price on fuel better then ours! lol

np zr rider I will be up in canada jan 25 thru feb 1 I will
be bent over every time I fill up. :D if you want to ride you got to pay and it does not matter what sport.
one guy with our group last year said they sell gas by the teaspoon in canada. I got a laugh out of that one. :D :D

T Cat,
Would the problem you happened to run into at Lakes of the North a 10-12 year old brat throwing snow balls?
We were running roads Saturday because the trails were junk.
We wern't speeding or on private property. We came aroung this sharp 90 degree turn about 15 MPH when this little brat started whipping ice balls! He hit each one of us in the leg! I was going to go back and crack the little b*stard across the skull but my buddy talked me out of it.
Seeing he did no damage [luckly] I let it slide as I pulled crap like that as a kid too.

jeez did they give you some lube with that gas, do not feel bad, that happened to us up in northhern mn once, will never be a problem again.

Usually in the mountains the gas gets pretty spendy, but its worth it!! The guy that drives the semi to get it up there has big balls and deserves every bit of money he gets for it! I would never take a semi up some of those mountain roads!! :D

:nervous: I can't believe that somebody flipped off a grommer,that would be about as bad as knocking over a old lady in my book. :nervous:

F**k um :nervous:

Last weekend in Grand Marais, during the few minutes I was in Bayshore Market, they had two drive-offs!! Now I know that gas is not cheap but after spending who-knows-what on sleds, trailer, apparrel, parts, etc, is the price of gas hardly worth stealing for, is it? Needless to say, this only fuels the fire for the locals. The proprietor was threatening to shut off the pumps and he wasn't joking. Yes, he makes money off of us but wouldn't it bite if there were no gas available in that area? Who are these boneheads?!?! :(

As a UP native, and a snowmobiler, I see both sides of this issue....Look at it this way...say you live in a semi pristine wilderness area. You live there because you dont like the hustle and bustle of city life. You enjoy the peace and quiet. You feel somewhat possessive of your way of life. Then the snow starts falling, and pretty soon the southern invasion starts. Every weekend it is a constant barrage of people on snowmobiles. During the day they are jumping your driveway, racing up and down your snow covered road at Mach 3, cutting through your back yard for a shortcut. Then at night it gets worse... They are still rippping down your road but only at mach 2 now... Then the bars get out, and at two in the morning, a group of sleds goes by... you wouldnt have heard them except for the guy with triple pipes running WOT past your house. The next day you run across some sledders in a gas station and hear an asinine comment like "without us, you wouldn't survive during the winter" Well guess what.... without the landowners who are giving you access to their land you would have nothing but a bunch of isolated state forests to ride on... No network of trails criscrossing the UP. Many of those business owners look at snowmobiles as a necessary evil, not as God's gift to the cash register. Granted, 90% of the people who ride on that landowner's property are courteous and respectful, but the other 10% are the ones that stick in the local's minds.

Case in point: up until two weeks ago there was no, and I mean ZERO, trails that connected East and West across the UP. Why not you might ask? Because landowners who granted access to their land for a trail decided that the trail was no longer coming through thier backyard. Right now the railroad grade from Munising to Marquette stops near Harvey, it does not connect through to marquette. Why? because the landowners have filed an injunction against the state of michigan to prevent the trail from using the railroad grade through their backyards. The other East/West trail, Trail 8 from Chatham to Gwinn, was closed because a landowner decided that they did not want sleds running through their field anymore. After quite a bit of negotiations, and a five year lease, the trail finally opened up two weeks ago. The snowmobile club was putting up new signage on January 11th to open the trail. It wasn't a big deal this year, because at that time there was barely enough snow to ride on.... but imagine the uproar if the UP would have been loaded with snow, and there was no easy way to cross the East/West???

What does it boil down to: RESPECT.

Snowmobilers need to respect the property they are riding on. They need to be courteous to the people that they meet. They need to stop coming up and acting like frat guys on a three day party. And we need to cut the cocky attitude of "I am the reason your business stays alive year round" In turn, the local residents of the areas that you ride may change their attitutes.. But, it has to start with the snowmobilers.

It IS about respect, for each other, and to encourage the continuance of the sport. Wherever that takes us.

IMHO, a GUEST in a local community should also be doing their damndest to help minimize the differences in the "us" vs. "them" thing. Man this gets me going too. That needs to go away, regarding ANYTHING. Anyone who gets off on the belief that they are supporting the local economy, enough to actually say it out loud, would be further ahead.......well, home. Do the rest of us a favor, keep your money, and stay there. Rent a movie. You don't have enough money where you can get away with the belief that you need not respect the people you are dealing with fully. Quit trashing it for the rest of us.

Those are probably your beer cans I had to pick up anyway....

AL

whatta dick :cussing:

Originally posted by mx_462@Jan 21 2003, 08:10 PM
whatta dick :cussing:
Who are you referring to mx?

:) I like the respect other peoples property Now if we can get the gov to do that ??????
I whish there was an exhaust system to make my sled quiet enough so I don't need to wear ear plugs while riding.
I have had snowmobiles use my lawn for a shortcut also. I do not mind them crossing but it would have been nice if they would have gone around the little trees instead of over them. I also keep trail open though a wooded area that leads thru my yard. like you said respect is the key..

Originally posted by michahicks@Jan 21 2003, 09:08 PM
. *Anyone who gets off on the belief that they are supporting the local economy, enough to actually say it out loud, would be further ahead.......well, home. Do the rest of us a favor, keep your money, and stay there. Rent a movie. You don't have enough money where you can get away with the belief that you need not respect the people you are dealing with fully. Quit trashing it for the rest of us.

Those are probably your beer cans I had to pick up anyway....

AL
I don't think anyone in here gave the impression that they were "getting off" on their belief that they support the UP economy. The discussion was simply about how it is a two way street. The UP needs tourism, and sledders need a place to ride, especially when WI and MN never seem to get much snow anymore. It requires respect and cooperation from both. You seem to be the one fostering the US VS. THEM mentality; perhaps you are one of the locals who resent the out of towners- even if they are well behaved- simply because they are more traffic on "your" trails. Since you are in lower MI, you are likely putting up with a-holes from Detroit, not folks from WI, MN, etc.

Originally posted by michahicks@Jan 21 2003, 09:08 PM
Anyone who gets off on the belief that they are supporting the local economy, enough to actually say it out loud, would be further ahead.......well, home. Do the rest of us a favor, keep your money, and stay there. Rent a movie. You don't have enough money where you can get away with the belief that you need not respect the people you are dealing with fully. Quit trashing it for the rest of us.


You know Mich, you have had one big attitude since you and machzman got into it with pipes. No one here said anything of the sort. You really need to read the posts carefully before going off half cocked.

I'm a UP resident and small business owner. I don't like/dislike any downstaters in general. I judge them as the individuals they are. I've seen many who love the natural resources here (almost :p ) as much as I do and respect it as such... Then there are the idiots who think that my home exists only to amuse them for a 3 day weekend, tearing it up, disrespecting the land and people, and leaving it worse then when they got here.

I suspect that the people reading these boards are not in the same group as the latter, but consider that these people have soured a lot of locals opinion on the whole lot.

My bottom line thought is that: we do need tourists (to an extent) to help our economy and I, for one, welcome and appreciate them. I promise to be a good host and help recreationists have a great vacation.... Just do me a favor, be a good guest in return; don't kick my dog or plss on my carpet and I'll invite you back every time.

my $0.02

DamageInc, I live in SW Michigan, own property in Northern Lower Michigan and ride both there and in the U.P. I disagree with your statement about the Lower seeing mostly a-holes from downstate. There are plenty from all around doing things they should not.

I am continually amazed at the lack of courtesy certain snowmobilers show for the communities in which they ride. As fellow riders, we have a responsibility to continue to influence those we ride with to respect the surrounding communities. And, if a certain rider continues to display unsatisfactory actions, to stop riding with them and/or have this person exlcuded from rides.

Yeah, I know this sounds harsh, and is very analogous to the drinking and riding situation, but we need to be proactive not reactive to these situations.

Mikadoo..

Yes that would be the one!

There were two of them there. I laughed when I saw the snowballs flying but then the last guy in the group pulls up and his windsheild is broke.

Their fun ended quick after that.

Gald to see this has turned into a solid discussion about property and our rights and theirs..

As far as I'm concerned we are guests while in the north and we should treat the land better than if it was our own.. Respect people's property..

Sorry guys, I was a bit raw with that note last night. When I was refering to the guys getting off, I was thinking of more than one occasion where I have witnessed people (who admittedly may have been having a bad day) who brought up the fact that they were contributing to the local economy in a manner I felt was demeaning to the person they were speaking with, to the point where I was embarassed ('If it were not for snowmobilers, you would be starving', or words to that effect). I think that might be relevant to this string. It probably was a poor choice of words. Like I said, that issue really makes my blood boil. In any case, when it's gotten to that point, respect has gone out the window, and in all likleyhood snowmobiling has alienated another member of the public.

Fostering the "us" vs: "them" thing? I'm trying to point it out so that it may be addressed, then squashed. Maybe we should just ignore it?

Addressing where I am from, it shouldn't make a difference where I am from, or you are from. Why would it matter if I'm from, or the person you are talking with is from the UP, or Ill, or Ind. or wherever? That's my point. Us vs: them makes no sense, or shouldn't. Should
I only say 'thank you' if you are from Wisconsin?

As far as the attitude thing resulting from the discussion with MachZman.....that is a complete crock. Where did that come from? I have no ill feelings from that conversation and have no clue as to why that conversation has even been brought up. That's old news.
But it was fun. :)

AL

Another "minor" point to add. When your group heads into a gas station to fuel up, how about using 1 pump, filling your sleds, move them and get out of the way. So many times I am embarrassed when I get to a set of pumps and others in my group EACH take a pump. The locals get po'd because 4 or 6 sleds have managed to tie up the entire station, 10 gallons at a time.
Show some courtesy, keep a side of the pumps open for the locals.

just my 2 cents

I hear you on the gas pump point but what makes a sledders purchase of 10 gallons any less important than the guy with a car coming in for the same?
The polite thing to do no matter what your driving is to get your fuel and pull off to the side to pay.

Just my 04

Rick.

It IS all about respect!
I have a relitive that retired and moved up north (for the peace and quiet). Try to see it from someone like his point of view.
Work all your life on some auto plant assmy. line. Saving up all your money to buy the American dream. Retire at 62 and move you and the wife into your dream home. Your first summer was great. Next comes fall, still nice and quite with the ocasional hunter being spoted. Next thing you know it's winter and all of a sudden your woke up by some giganticly LOUD noise at 3:00am. You go to the window and see some moron with his ear piercing tripple-tripple w/open cans blasting through your yard. Then another, and another, all night long. It seems your yard, even though your nowhere near a trail, has become a faviroit short-cut for everyone (cuz now that the've spent the last 3-4 hrs. at the local pub, it's shorter this way). This goes on all day and night for the next 3-4 months. You wanna see a guy on the edge? This may very well be the next serial killer in the making!
The next fall, he's out putting up a plastic orange drift fence to keep people off his property/yard. Some moron simply runs it over and by the next day you don't even know it was ever there. Then the kicker. Some dope hit's his phone box on his lawn. Tears it right out.
These are the reasons that people don't like us.
Remember, we are a very SMALL minority. Most people DON'T ride snowmobiles.
Oh yeah, here's something to think about. Before the loud pipe craze, non of this ever bothered him.

Trapper

Back to the top for Mikadoo.

That's BS. People don't realize how much money snowmobilers bring in to there community. I don't know if you were in upstate NY but they tried shutting down all the trails at one point but were forced to open most of them just because of the huge economic loss. I think these people hate snowmobilers cause they can't afford them :) Oh well. I would of flipped if the dude said that too me. It's frustating with people. A guy i live buy has let me ride on his land my whole life and all he says is "just have fun and don't tear the ground up too much". Why can't eveyone else be like that? jeez

I'm new to the sport, moved to Mn from In recently and have never had the opportunity to ride on a groom trail in my life, considering the past two winters snow falls. I have yet to experience the U.P. of Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, or Yellowstone. I'm 24 have a mint 1998 EXT Tripple Touring, and am just anxious as hell to get out and experience these trails with my wife. In otherwards don't F**K IT UP, for me please.

:(

Originally posted by blackcat@Jan 21 2003, 10:37 AM
In our small Ontario, Canada community, I see snowmobiles driving along peoples front lawns so they don't have to drive on the sparsly snow covered sidewalks. I can understand how this ####'s people off. Eventually they will be down to the grass and next summer the property owner will be out there trying to repair his lawn and guess who he is going to be cursing.........not Dave or Steve or Pat or Mark, it will be those ####'n snowmobilers. That's me. I'm a snowmobiler. I don't drive on other peoples property. I am preaching. to my son (18 years old) to stay off peoples front yards. I noticed a couple of posts and pictures of fathers going out with their sons for the first time and I too was there and I enjoyed it (except for the part of digging his sled out of the snow after getting stuck). Thats when you start teaching the rules of responsible snowmobiling. So you fathers of future sled-heads, enjoy your time out with your son and teach him respect for nature and your nieghbor.
Just my input, for what it's worth. *SWRules
I went by this property this morning that I mentioned above that snowmobilers were riding on. The owners son had acces to some heavy machinery and had a Cat with a big bucket pick up some snow and dropped it so these guys would have to stay off of his property. I wonder if these disrespectfull snowmobilers will get the message or will they just try and find a way around the pile??
I'll wait and see.

Hell, they'll run over the top of it.

Agreed, over it.