I'm looking for an all around good option for traction. I have a ZR800 and want traction in the trail (loose or groomed trail). I also want to be able to run good on the lakes that have really hardpack to icy conditions. How does the 1.25" paddle track work with studs? What about a good 1" track with more studs? Is any protection needed for the tunnel if 1.375" studs are used? What do you think is the best?

rode an 800 mxz this year with a 1.25 and 96 studs in the center only and it hooked in the snow great I'm going to one next year,maybe more studs like 144.

1.25 paddletracks work awesome in the snow. *I will probably be going to one next year.

I have a zrt800 with 144 1.25" studs. The best thing I noticed is the braking ability.

one of the best all around on the 800 is a staggerd 1" camoplast with 144 studs 1.25 if you go to long on the stud and run alot of ice or road or even hard packed you will pull them thru and bend some

(Edited by machz69 at 12:20 pm on April 17, 2001)

I can't believe how little studs everyone is putting on. *I have 192 on a 600 and i still complain about no traction. *My 440 has 96 studs (1.175 woody's) and it spins the track sometimes. *I can't answer about hitting the tunnel on your ZR800, but i would not even bother with less than 192 studs.

I can tell you this, do not place them within 2 inches of the edge of the track or they will rip out on a sharp curve on hard packed trails

I too are very surprised at how few studs these forum users use. I think studding also largely depends on the area in which you ride and where I`m at were lucky to have some good dirt and some shiny ice, at best our trails here are always extremly hard pack snow and usually *very icy. 192 does not seem out of line for most 600`s my ZX 440 runs 168 and to get it to hook the coupling is loosend on it... but to each his own, It seems like everybody here is going to deep lug tracks for a traction cure all and higher speeeds because of the lack of the stud weight, but I don`t keep sleds open for more than 6 or 700 feet and I don`t see it.

I too only race for shorter distances (600-1000') but I was beat many times by a few guys I ride with (on airport or groomed trails) because they had higher lug tracks. In conditions where traction was equal the sleds ran about the same. At the time I had a .87 Camoplast w/192 studs. I want to be able to hook up like them in those conditions, but also be able to race when icy conditions exist...maybe its impossible to be able to do both? In Michigan I can be riding in 2 ft of powder one weekend, and on ice the next.

[b]Quote: from ballsout1 on 5:39 pm on April 18, 2001
I too are very surprised at how few studs these forum users use. I think studding also largely depends on the area in which you ride and where I`m at were lucky to have some good dirt and some shiny ice, at best our trails here are always extremly hard pack snow and usually very icy. 192 does not seem out of line for most 600`s my ZX 440 runs 168 and to get it to hook the coupling is loosend on it... but to each his own, It seems like everybody here is going to deep lug tracks for a traction cure all and higher speeeds because of the lack of the stud weight, but I don`t keep sleds open for more than 6 or 700 feet and I don`t see it.


If you are using 192 studs on your 600, then you are using too many.

There is no reason to use this amount with a 600. I have been using 192 on my 1000cc TCat for 2 seasons now and don't have these traction issues. I am a firm believer that it makes a big difference in the type and size of the stud, as well as placement.

You may be better off looking at the type of stud you are using, and what applications you are using them in.

Some sledders believe that adding studs will help with deep snow traction. Obviously this is wrong, but it shows that there is some of us that don't quite understand the concept here.

If I can easily get away with 192 studs on my 172+ hp sled, then why would you need to use 192 on a 600???

Just something to think about guys.

Later,


(Edited by Thundercat1000 at 9:24 am on April 19, 2001)

On bare ice I go with 208 1inch spears and won my class for season on my stock 600 Mxz and still spun a couple feet at 1 event, with the 1/2 inch lug speed track. That is drags tho trail sleds depend on carbide on ski's as to how much push you have in corners, 144 is a minimum for me to be content with on a liquid, and it is easier on the track than 96 or less, is not good.

T-cat 1000 I am with you all the way. *I think 192 studs is almost too many. *I don't really care if I spin a little bit, I want the sled to be manuverable in the turns. *

[b]Quote: from 1000cc on 7:35 pm on April 19, 2001
T-cat 1000 I am with you all the way. I think 192 studs is almost too many. I don't really care if I spin a little bit, I want the sled to be manuverable in the turns.


Hey 1000cc,

Not trying to be an ### here but you would do a heck of a lot better if you lose the D&D clutch kit. Trust me, I have tested and testing these things. They are not even close.

Just my &#36.02 so don't get upset.

Later

[b]Quote: from Sharkey on 7:24 pm on April 19, 2001
On bare ice I go with 208 1inch spears and won my class for season on my stock 600 Mxz and still spun a couple feet at 1 event, with the 1/2 inch lug speed track. That is drags tho trail sleds depend on carbide on ski's as to how much push you have in corners, 144 is a minimum for me to be content with on a liquid, and it is easier on the track than 96 or less, is not good.


What is spear. 30 deg pick? 40 deg 60 deg? carbide tip, wedge?? Not sure what a spear is.

I am not being a smart ###, i simply do not know what a psear is and I am trying to figure out why everyone needs so many studs.

Later

Tcat1000, even on the instructions to any set of studs, they recommend 168+ plus for the horspower a 600 puts out. *If you are not spinning a track off a Tcat, i would really like to know either how long your studs are, or how much you weigh. *In my example, i weigh 195 with 1.075 60* woddy's trail studs. *(Lets not start a brand bash now, the 60* is the important part)

I know engagement stiffness has a big part to do with it, but after trying half a dozen combinations this year, it spun every time. *

What kind of pattern do you run? *All in the center, every other on the outside, every lug on the outside?

I usually run every other on the outside section of the track with a pattern found in a Roetin catalog for 192 studs.

It is a cross between a chisel stud and a pick. I put that many studs in to use all the horsepower, and you can stop in half the distance. Maybe I Hate loosing too!! LOL. If your going to the work of studding why not have the best traction money can buy.

[b]Quote: from JoeServo on 8:30 am on April 20, 2001
Tcat1000, even on the instructions to any set of studs, they recommend 168+ plus for the horspower a 600 puts out. If you are not spinning a track off a Tcat, i would really like to know either how long your studs are, or how much you weigh. In my example, i weigh 195 with 1.075 60* woddy's trail studs. (Lets not start a brand bash now, the 60* is the important part)

I know engagement stiffness has a big part to do with it, but after trying half a dozen combinations this year, it spun every time.

What kind of pattern do you run? All in the center, every other on the outside, every lug on the outside?

I usually run every other on the outside section of the track with a pattern found in a Roetin catalog for 192 studs.


Joe, you run nearly an identical setup as I do.

I also run 192 woody's 60 deg carb gold diggers with a roetin 192 pattern (slightly modified for additonal scratch lines.

It spun like a ##### at first, until I figured out that I was not getting enough PROPER weight transfer.

Does your cat come up high in the front. I didn't say I wasn't getting enough weight transfer, just not proper transfer. It takes a bit of tweaking and testing to arrive at the right combo. By the way, I weigh in at 205lbs.

Once you find the correct setup, you can really go up in engagement before breaking it loose.

I currently run my engagement at 4300RPM.

Whether you believe my NEXT statement or not is totally up to you, but I *prove it time and time again.

I RARELY EVER LOSE FROM THE HOLE.

I don't care if I am racing a 500, I usually get the hole shot everytime.

BTW. Setup is strictly for 600FT.

This is why I say that some people here are running too many studs. They are trying to solve a traction issue that really doesn't have much to do with the quantity of studs, just the rest of the setup. If more sledders would start looking at their suspension setup and not order 300 studs they would be better off.

There has to be a point where you can get too many studs, right? (bed of nails principle.)

I feel 192 for a tcat1000 is just right. If I can get mine to stick like glue, so can everyone else. It's not magic, just trial and error.

And during the season, I pull out those 192 60 deg gold diggers and insert 192 woody's steel 30 deg drag eliminator ice picks for the ice (all T-nut style for faster changing).

It also hooks up beatifull on ice with those.


Later

[b]Quote: from Sharkey on 8:34 am on April 20, 2001
It is a cross between a chisel stud and a pick. I put that many studs in to use all the horsepower, and you can stop in half the distance. Maybe I Hate loosing too!! LOL. If your going to the work of studding why not have the best traction money can buy.


Hey Sharkey,

This may be one of your problems. I'm not exactly sure what this thing really is, but if I was you, I'd lose it and go with a good 60 deg carb gold digger or something similar.

I have never had any problems with these and my track doesn't sit there and spin.....Running 192

Later

When you talk of correct suspension setup for traction, what do you mean? (i.e. limitor strap, shock adjustment, etc.)

[b]Quote: from zr800man on 12:59 pm on April 20, 2001
When you talk of correct suspension setup for traction, what do you mean? (i.e. limitor strap, shock adjustment, etc.)

This is precisely what I am referring to. Along with front ski adjustments, and total height of the sled. All of these things are very important when trying to acheive good traction.

NO BRAND BASHING HERE BUT, haven't some of you guys heard that the MachZ's are hard to get to hook up? In racing, this is common knowledge as the Mach can be a pain to setup. But with some trial and error, they can get these things to stick. Not because that added 100 more studs, but because they adjusted their setup better.

Most Doo guys will readily admit that the Mach needs to be properly adjusted to get it to hook. This goes right back to the fact that MORE studs is not necessarily the correct answer.

Later

i agree completly *with you i said it before and ill say it again too many studs is not good even at 192 you have to loose speed .not on ice or a road but on hard packed yes , if your dragging like you said 660,750,1000 then yes 192 is good again its more quality then quantity but as fare as you saying the mach is hard to set up ...not realy it is about the easiest i have ever tried. it tranfers so easily maybe what they ment was it was hard to set up for trails because they tranfer so easily that if you dont ride agressive you wont like the front up in the trails. but i do.on the cats its a little harder but i can be done. i still have 2 cats and both my brothers are die hard cat fans one rides a 97 t cat and the ohter has a 2001zr 800 and a98 1108 hooper sled *and i have set up all three. with the 97 just clutchin and suspention everone around here had/has a rumore that its modified but its not. so it just goes to show that it is all in the suspenting and clutching * ps. on the 900 we run 144 trail studs and a 1 inch stagered complast and the same on the zr and a speed track with 198 picks on the 1108.this sled has 240hp if i can get it to hook then you can get a stock 600 to hook. all it takes is time

I think I lost everybody, I race on bare Ice!!!! The only real test of clutching, horsepower, weight of sled, and ponies to the ground, and a unmatched time on a timing system. A carbide pick is for trails, spears are RACE ONLY>Where &#36&#36&#36&#36&#36 are on the line every time you pull up to race. * T cat 1000 apparently engages at possibly rpm, I do not. Mine is at legal limit of 5500, and by 2003 that will increase slightly. My spears are a third lighter than 30 degree picks and grab more surface, heck I had woodys picks for 6 years and had to change to keep up.


(Edited by Sharkey at 1:17 pm on April 21, 2001)

OK, I have been following these posts and Here is my 2 cents worth and I may get hacked-on by a few, buy here goes..
First of all when you stud, or hear about studding, understand there are two or possibly more situations for studding. Flat out Ice Drag Racing, (sharkey's Situation), and Trail Riding/backyard Drag racing. (most others who ride) I have seen everything in the book in the past, over studded, under studded, Improperly studded, and Correctly studded. and here is why I feel this happens..
First you get Someone who doesn't understand the proper technique of studding, and more importantly how to set up a suspension. He studs his sled, goes out on the trail Spins everywhere and then goes and adds more studs until he stops spinning. Then the guy ends up with a sled that is over studded and he can't turn it in the corners. I have seen 600's with 288 Studs!!! Not understanding it wasn't a studding situation, but a suspension setup situation.
And on the other end of the spectrum, I have seen 800's with 96 studs and some of them ripped out and the owner wondering why? First I recommend, either have someone who knows suspension setup and studding either help you or take it to someone who can do it properly. And not all dealers know how to stud properly, so buyer beware... Here is a standard I use with a "PROPER SUSPENSION SETUP".....
Trail Situation/BackYard Drag Racers.
Use a good Carbide stud.
440cc and 500cc 96 studs
600cc and 700cc 144 studs
800cc and 900cc 192 studs
1000 and up 240 studs
Set up in a proper pattern where no scratch line repeat themselves... I know this works with the proper suspension setup to go along with it.

Professional Drag Racers.. I will not attempt to recommend your stud amounts or patterns. Each and everyone of you have your own Special Techniques and I will not insult your intelligence with my thoughts....
So here you have it in a nut shell, I ran my Polaris, Yes I said Polaris, Flannery Improved stock 800 with 192 studs and It hooked perfectly, My Mach Z did the same with 192 studs, My improve Stock 600 I used 144 Studs and it hooked perfectly. Now I use a 1 1/2 Paddle track on my Mach Z and I still hook in Northern Michigan where I Ride..

Z..........

[b]Quote: from Sharkey on 3:39 am on April 21, 2001
I think I lost everybody, I race on bare Ice!!!! The only real test of clutching, horsepower, weight of sled, and ponies to the ground, and a unmatched time on a timing system. A carbide pick is for trails, spears are RACE ONLY>Where &#36&#36&#36&#36&#36 are on the line every time you pull up to race.


I don't think you lost me at all Sharkey,

You using bad terms here. The name Pick is used to descripe a pointed end.

Carbide tipped studs are for trails. Picks are for ice. You can get NO better traction than using a 30deg pick whether or not it is carbide tipped. (Yes they have both).

ON bare ice I run 192 woody's 30 degree steel eliminator PICKS. They are very sharp and will cut you if you brush against them. I DO NOT HAVE A TRACTION PROBLEM WHAT-SO-EVER ON THE ICE.

Toss these daggers or spears or whatever they are and at least give the REAL picks a try. It is just a suggestion Sharkey, but they really work good.

208 studs on a 600? Way too many. Whether you agree or not, it is too many. This is not a horsepower thing it is a setup issue or stud selection problem.

Bottom LINE: You are using way more studs than you need simply because the sytle stud you use is wrong or you haven't arrived at the proper suspension setup. PERIOD!

Later

T-cat 1000, what clutch kit do you suggest???

What difference does the degree make after some road riding and 1000 miles? *I believe that woodys gold digger studs are the most durable stud out there. *To me that is all that matters.

Sharkey, Thundercat 1000, Everyone, take a deep breath and ease up.. These are peoples opinions and everyone is entitled to their own personal opinion. No reason for everyone to get High Blood Pressure. So, let's all use what we personally like and go from there. Let's keep this forum "light" and informative".

ZMachMan-Moderator-Snowmobileworld Forum....

now were getting somewhere youve all made excellent points and exactly what i was thinking and baybe didnt come out right but your on the right track now! all these points were made with the assumption that either your on trail so you go for durability and you will not get *real good or hard hook up. next you have drag racing on ice *and here everyone has there own set up and amount and the reason here is that every sled has its own personality and there owners know it. so its hard to have the best of both worlds btu you can have it but at a price.

Yes but, Arctic cat rider have attitudes, at least that's what I hear from everybody else. *:.)

I wouldn't say we are getting high blood pressure, just having a great argument.

TCAT100, i have loosened my limiter staps a bit, but not to far as to loose to much top end. *My front skis are tightened up good. *Your enagement seems low, but i guess if you 172+ hp, might as well pull from the dig rather than smack the clutch as hard as possible and spin. *

I think where i position my feet is a big factor. *I notice the best traction with my feet in the foot wells, with my body off the seet slightly.

This year i think i am going to go with those black studs from woody's, i forgot the name. *The guy tells me its the same as the gold digger's but less durable. *He wouldn't give me a percent less durable figure, but i know they are half the price.

[b]Quote: from 1000cc on 12:06 pm on April 21, 2001
T-cat 1000, what clutch kit do you suggest???




It is my opinion that clutch kits are just an item for people that do not know how to clutch. And that's great for those people who don't want to learn it, but, if you want the most out of your sled, you need to clutch it yourself.

The best advice I can give is to throw away those clutch kits, grab a copy of Aaen's clutch tuning handbook, and learn exactly how these things work. This is where you can really get the power from.

Clutch kits are just happy mediums. They make very minor imporvements to your clutch system (sometimes they make it worse) and try to get you the best of both worlds. You can't have it both ways though if you want maximum performance.

Decide what you will be doing, dragging 600 ft, trail riding, whatever, then clutch the sled from there. There is a lot to be said with testing, and trail & error.

The clutching I have on my tcat (for 600ft dragging - ice) would make a D&D, BM, etc clutch kit look laughable. It is not because I am some kind of rocket scientist, I just understand how clutching works and have applied that to my sled in particular.

Here is a statement that will start some more talking:

If you are clutching for 600 ft drag, lose the roller secondary.

Yep, that's what I said, get rid of the roller cover secondary if you want better performance in dragging. Now I know people will ridicule me for saying this, but it will only be those that don't quite understand how these things work.

Roller secondarys are great for the trail, and they have superior backshifting capability. Unfortuneatly, noone cares about that apsect when dragging.

1000cc, the clutching I have on my sled would make your cat scream compared to the clutch kit you use, but you would have to lose the secondary.

Later

[b]Quote: from 1000cc on 12:15 pm on April 21, 2001
What difference does the degree make after some road riding and 1000 miles? I believe that woodys gold digger studs are the most durable stud out there. To me that is all that matters.


1000cc, it doesn't make much of a difference if you are riding on roads. But Sharkey is racing on ice and he's using the wrong stud. (in my opinion ONLY)

Stud tip degree makes a huge difference on ice. Just as a 45 deg carbide tip will give you better traction on hard pack and ice than a 60 deg carbide. Yes, then 45 will wear faster, *but you have to decide what you want.

The 30 deg steel ice pick won't last 30 feet on a road, but it is the absolute best stud for ice. On ice it lasts quite a long time and can be re-sharpened over and over again.

If you are into trail riding and roads and don't go down on the ice to race to win, then you are probably right, the tip degree is all academic from there.

I have literally seen a picked (ice) 600cc sled just kill a 1000cc tcat or machz just because the big gun wasn't picked. If you spend any time at all on ice, you have probably seen this as well. It just goes to show you how important stud selection is, depending on the application.

Later

thunder 1000 your absolutly right om when you say pick what your doing and do it and as far as the roller and clutch kits we seem to have the identical thought patern here take the roller and chuck it *you have to lern your sled and no one kit will do it. i personly like a staight angle cam for the tunder but i do engage them a little harder on hard packed about 5500 *i would like to get to run your thunder in the 660 it would be good to see a thunder thats all stock (if thats the case) he he *run but *i actualy pull the back in just a little for the thunder for trails for the ice ,grass,hard pack well thats another story. *

I know I have 64 gram primary weights, and a 60/40 helix. *As far as the springs go they are D&D's colors, but I can at least tell that the secondary is wound tighter. *I rev 83-8400 at WOT. *I would be interested in what your setup is Tcat 1000

[b]Quote: from 1000cc on 5:54 pm on April 24, 2001
I know I have 64 gram primary weights, and a 60/40 helix. As far as the springs go they are D&D's colors, but I can at least tell that the secondary is wound tighter. I rev 83-8400 at WOT. I would be interested in what your setup is Tcat 1000

I take it you are mainly setup for trail riding from the setup you give. What, no dragging? I thought that is why people bought the big gun in the first place. Much better trail machines out there besides the mighty Tcat..

My setup would be useless to you unless you are gunning for 600 ft drags.

Later

Many of you are talking about "proper suspension" setup. What do you mean? I know how to set my zr800 suspension up for the ride I want in changing trail conditions, but what is needed for the best traction and the "proper" weight transfer?
The 800's have the bar moved back a hole in comparison to all my other cats...is this a help or a problem? What else have you found that works? Is there something radically different I should try from the stock setup?

Personally, The 136 1 1/4 track with over 120 lug studs would be the best!

hay what about lts long track studs i put 1 1/4 luged track on my zr 440 could use 96 studs looking for input *seen them somewhere on internet but cant find them now.what about patterns they screw right into the lugs.

Make sure the stud head is 1" or bigger if you go 1.375 because they will pull through with a 7/8 head I run 120 in the center of the track and love it! not so much bite and able to turn and gun without ski lift!