Just thought I'd ask. *It's something I've thought about for awhile. *Gets pretty frustrating when you spend $6500- cdn on a used sled, $130- Cdn on a pass, plus, clothes, gas, oil, accessories, etc. *Then you end up riding trails with 2 foot whoops, during the middle of the week. *Doesn't make sense.
I know the clubs do their best with the funds they have available. *That's why I was wondering about higher permit prices. *What do you think?

I wish Michigan whould charge more. They doubled it this year hopefully they double it again next year. I know it suck this year because of lack of snow but I hate spending 5000-8000 dollars on a sled 1000-5000 on a trailer tools oil hotel rooms and then have to ride 100 miles on a snow cross track. Not to say I have to drive a truck all year long. If I did not snowmobile I could drive a corvette or z-28.

Duane

WE already pay 180 for pass *in quebec if we could
get *better groomming 20 more would be ok
*http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yes, I'd pay $200. *But I had a real hard time not choosing the we have no snow option.
Hopefully, there will be lots of money in the OFSC coffers after this year, that they will have lots of grooming money for next season.

FishHog

yes we pay $130.00 before dec 1st and $160.00 after but let us not forget the ontario licence sticker for $15.00 what is it for ? but you better have it. $145.00 for all permits before dec 1, i know that the government has got their nose into everything and it is now a total big expensive money urinating screwed up mess. insurance has gone up 800% now that we have the government working with us in the ofsc. no cut the permit prices in half, kick the government involvement out totally and get back to doing things right with a common sense approach.

i would say, the ontario permit is out of line.
we in south eastern ontario, might get to ride 3 maybe 4 months of the year. Groom operators must make 25-30 dollars and hour to justify this cost.
last year was an excetional year and prices should not be based on last year.
look at this year, the trails are not open and we are in the middle of January now.
Whats march going to look like, if things don't change soon, i might better get the sled summerized.
$160 for a pass and no riding, not a chance

Hey Paul, The ONT reg. sticker on the sled, what about the one on your cars license plate? *That's a damn good question! *What do they do with the $$. *Gotta be a total cash grab!!!!

I honestly believe that the permit price in Ontario is as high as it should be and could even be reduced. *After this winter, there is going to be excess cash available. *Return it to the people who paid it, or, preferably, improve the existing services. *Like Paul said, common sense dictates that things could be done better and more economically.

On that note, however, I can say that I am pleased with the grooming services in my area. *This is only my second year here, but I was very pleased last year with the job done. *This year, I have volunteered my services to help out on the trails and am anxiously awaiting a call. *I suppose it will come along as soon as winter does!

Well here's some news for you , It is already on the books for a $10 permit increase next year. Thats a fact as long as the goverment gives it the ok . Before anyone says the goverment is just in it for the permit moneys you are wrong ! The goverment is kicking wads of cash into sledding in ontario $ 3 million this year alone and another $3million each for the next 4 years. As for better grooming and better trails. Well that is a topic that varies widly in this province , there are clubs out there with the equipment and the money but not the time or ambition to groom because they are voluntiers . Is money a problem ? It shouldn't be *with the new funding matrix. A properly managed club should not run out of cash and if they do there is help availible from the ofsc.
It's a long and detailed topic but don't just think that more money for a permit will make all the trails in this province a smooth as the 401 at all times . There is just too many variables out there to make everything perfect at all times .

What are they grooming the MUD. *They so over price. *Its nuts. *

They say the moneys for bridge building and repair. *I noticed that when a bridge becomes unsafe they just re route around it normally fellow paying sleders picking up the branches.

I THINK TRAIL PERMITS ARE PRETY MUCH AT THEIR LIMITS FOR NOW. OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS PRICE KEEPS GOING UP BUT THE GROMMING THAT I'VE SEEN DOES NOT IMPROVE. *ALL THESE INCREASED COSTS?? *I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A BUREAUCRATIC BUREAUCRACY THAT HAS BEEN BUILT UP AND ALL THE FUNDS ARE BEING FUNNELED INTO IT. *HOW COME 4 RUNNERS AND MOTORCROSSERS DON'T CARRY THIER WEIGHT ON THE COST OF THE TRAIL SYSTEMS YET?http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif??? *SNOWMOBILERS DEVELOPED IT AND WORKED AT IT FOR YEARS. *I THINK ITS TIME WE GOT A BREAK AND LET THEM BEAR THE GRUNT OF THE BURDON. *ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY GET TO USE THE SYSTEM LONGER THAN WE DO.


SNOWMOBILERS UNITE
WE HAVE TO STICK TOGETHER ON THIS.

one thing i did not say was the groomer guys in our area are fantastic. the guy in charge of it farms and i know that lots comes out of his pocket.

I feel sorry for you guys having to pay that kind of money for permits. Is it worth it? If they charged that in Michigan they would have to run me in a tree to catch me!
I rode in Wawa last year 500 miles, Durbinville, Hornpayne, half way haven and it was the best riding I have done in 30 years! WHY? Because no one is there! If they had the millions of people riding their one and only trail like Michigan the mogals would be as high as mount everest! If Michigan trails were as smooth as Wawa area I would pay what ever.
It sounds like you guys are paying big bucks and riding junk like Michigan. You can groom a trail till #### freezes over if all you have is one or two trails, we need MORE trails, like having four lane expressway's, groomer's just CANT do it right with all the people.
We pay $20.00 here soon to be $25.00. I belong to M.S.A. just because we need a voice in government. I like you guys am getting fed up with paying out hard earned cash and pumping big bucks into the economy for riding mogals...

This topic can be debated till the cows come home. I would like to know 3 things to put things in perspective:

1) How many permits the Port Perry club sold last year.

2) How much money was spent on grooming. (Not very much I would imagine)

3) How many of those permit buyers went north to find snow.

We all rave about the trails in northern Ontario (the Soo to North Bay & north), but how many of us actually buy permits up there? After we were up there last season, they got dumped on & I think the clubs got overwhelmed. Do you think the permit sales the Kap & Moonbeam clubs, for example, cover grooming expenses. These aren't the most heavily populated areas.

The matrix that IndySKS mentioned (maybe he can explain it for us) determines how much of the permit price the selling club keeps. You may complain that your club isn't grooming, but somewhere there IS a club grooming.

My concern is with the revenues that the OFSC receives & does not enlighten us in a sound financial manner as to how this money is spent. Maybe Arthur Andersen is doing the books for the OFSC. Could be because until the insurance fiasco last year, everything was rosy at OFSC HQ.

I agree with gt800xcr about the bureaucracy at the HQ. On another forum, (Indy was there too *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) things got quite heated when some people criticized the OFSC *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif

The posters who got upset with the criticism seemed to be of the opinion that we should blindly go along with the way the OFSC informs the membership on financial & operating matters.

Port Perry S/C
Audited kms = 194
total Grooming hours for 00/01 = 1200
99/00 =276
98/99 =414
total large groomers = 3
permits sold = 1647 in 00/01
permits / km= *8.5 ( standard is 3.5 )
and it goes on and on ........
Sounds to me like they sell too many permits !!!
No Revrnd ...you won't get me going http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I think the prices are way to high. Even here in Sudbury there is only 3 months of snowmobiling, if we're lucky.
I wrote to the OFSC last year and asked for a breakdown of the costs, and an explanation of where all the money goes.
The only answer I got was in $/km of trail.
What I had asked though, was how they arrive at those numbers.
Obviously in a year of more snow when winter lasts longer the costs will be higher, but the following year the costs might be cut in half.
Then we have the problem of liability. I know that in april last year the trails north of Sudbury were in great shape, but because they weren't sending the groomers out any more the trails were closed. So the season was cut two weeks shorter than it had to be for no real reason.
What really bugs me is how the club around here uses old roads for most of the trails, and then they rattle on about all the trail building they do. The biggest job they do is putting up signs telling people without permits to stay off of them.
I think if they dropped the price to $80-90 there wouldn't be a problem with people not buying permits

Newfie: welcome to the club. Your experience with the OFSC mirrors that of a lot of us. Unless one has access to inside information, you just don't know what is going on in Barrie. They throw a bunch of meaningless stats in the Ontario Snowmobiler Magazine & expect us to be happy.

I don't know if there is a way for the average member to directly convince the OFSC bigwigs that we want to be properly informed.

Maybe if all the members on this forum that buy OFSC permits were to email there sledding friends to email the OFSC, we might start something.

What do you guys think?

the snow pass price last winter in Manitoba, Canada wass $70 which is not bad at all. The problem I have is that the company that collects the money doen't distribute as much to the guys grooming as they should. I think there is some skimming going on here?? There is no way I would pay $200 unless the trails where mint and there were call girls in the warm up shacks.

another MXZ, is SnoMan not involved in the sale of the permits?

Indy, thanks for the Port Perry info http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif It was meant as a rhetorical question.

We had next to no snow here in Oshawa & I figured they sell a lot of permits because of the proximity to Oshawa/Whitby. I bet there are a lot of clubs in northern Ontario where the stats are reversed, lots of grooming hours & nowhere near 1600 permits sold.

This is where our permit money should be going, to the clubs that groom.

I think thats where the buy where you ride idea comes in . Just just too bad most people are either dedicated to a local club or too lazy to send away and get a permit from a club in the north by mail. I have 3 sleds and buy 2 of my permits from clubs in the north. Last year was Gogama and Lions Head . I have even sold permits for the Gogama club and spent 15 hrs grooming for them while on vacation, as well our club gave them $1000. one winter to help out. Before buying my permits I look back at where I rode the previous winter and choose a small club that was out there trying hard and had smooth trails. This coming season my permits will be from the lake nippising area.

There is so much varyance on how money is spent from club to club to say that a club that that sells only 2 permits / km *is poor and a club that sells 4 / km is rich . A lot has to do with management and the volunteers.

You could send the O.F.S.C. all the emails you want but I dought that you will get the answers you want. And I'm not here to defend them or to spend hours debating a topic on their behalf. I do what I can do for the betterment of the sport and thats as far as It goes .

I can see this ride we have planned for this comming winter will be interesting .........lol

Ok one more point that I would like to make clear , everyone talks about permit sales . But do you realize that not all clubs pay the same amount for their permits. A club in the north that has lots of trail and very few permit sales may only pay $ 25 ( appx. ) for a permit while a club like Revrnds Port Perry club may have to pay as much as $ 80 or more for that same permit . This is where a very complicated matrix system comes into play evening things out somewhat, then there's ... , grants , TSS money, district equalization payments ect. ect . *Yes there is clubs in the north that are in need of help but there is also some that do very well .
There is also clubs in the south that are stuggling to survive.

God I got to get out of here I'm getting in too deep ...lol

The grooming in the old hastings snow riders region has been great..if there has been snow to groom. This year permafrost and I will buy a permit from the old hastings and one from the cochrane club (polar bear I think). Everytime I leave my house by sled I am on an old hastings trail and if there is no snow here well the choice is clear cochrane is where we will be. I dont mind paying the money to ride. Unfortunately it seems the last few years if you dont have snow you have to go find it. With the money we put into this sport you have to go find the snow.I work too hard all summer not to ride in the winter if I have to I go on snow quest.The thing that bothers me is the atv's that ride on these trails in the summer who havent paid one thin dime to ride on the trails.I think permits should be $200.00 and be year round permits that are owned by the person not the machine.Just my $0.02. And yes we doo own atv's. There are 5 atv's at my house.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IndySKS @ July 17, 2002, 6:37pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">like Revrnds Port Perry club[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t buy my permit from Port Perry. I&#39;m a Paudash member. I put about a third of my miles on their trails last season. Old Hastings the second third & wayyyy up north, the other third http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Indy, great explanation on the permit price. Basically the same as I was told back when I was on the executive. It&#39;s too bad the OFSC is so secretive. Do you wish to share your opinion why?

I&#39;ve been told a couple of reasons. They seem petty in a way. They are afraid the uneducated sledder will find out how much money they take in during a season & complain then about the permit price.

Maybe I&#39;m in the minority here, but I look at the permit fees as a drop in the bucket for what I get out of it. *Compared to the sled, fuel, oil, motels, travel expenses, insurance, etc., $130 is sweet #### all.

I&#39;ve been on alot of trails throughout southern and northern Ontario, and can appreciate all the work that must be put into the trail system. *I feel I get alot of value for my $130. *Especially when I see volunteers grooming at all hours of the night. *I wonder how it makes them feel when they hear bickering and complaining about the cost, when they put in all those hours for free.

Sure I&#39;ve been on trails that I wish were groomed more, but I&#39;ve also seen how fast a trail can get beat up when there is alot of traffic on it. *

And its also frustrating when we don&#39;t get any snow, but alot of the cost have already been paid, before they ever now if were going to get snow.

Anyway, enough of my rant. *But my opinion, we have it good. *And I think we should be much more appreciative of what we have, and the effort to keep it there, instead of bitching about a measly $130 bucks.

FishHog

I wish the ofsc would allow us manitoba riders to ride on their trails with our manitoba permits as snoman does for them.

I agree with that Zert. *There should be some crossover on border areas. *I can&#39;t see that amounting to that much money for the few people that would ride both.

I think the reason the OFSC doesn&#39;t have reciprocity with Manitoba riders is that they&#39;re afraid Ontario riders will buy their permit in Manitoba at the reduced price. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Well then they should come out with a dual pemit, even if its a little more expensive. (split the difference perhaps)
Or get an Ont permit, for regular price, minus your Manitoba permit cost, if you show you already bought one.

Aren&#39;t there different visitor passes in Quebec? A few years ago the OFSC & FCMQ had a dual permit. I think it was when the OFSC permit was cheaper than a FCMQ permit. Now that the two systems permit prices & trails are relatively close, why not have reciprocity?

We don&#39;t have to buy a license plate for our vehicles for each state/province we drive in, so if we can prove we pay to ride on our home trails, that should be good enough.

They need to set the price and leave it there.Carry over the balance,keep the account out of the red and keep grooming!

Too many fingers in the pot. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Fixed Trail Permit Fees Set by the Goverment of Ontario for the 2002/2003 season

Seasonal $170.
Seasonal before Dec 1 $140
1 day * $35
7 day $ 100
Replacement $10

Although I have a problem with the first sentance this is what I have in my hands for the coming season.

2 questions :
-does the word "fixed" mean no insurance surcharge ?

-does "set by the Goverment of Ontario" actually mean the think they are the one setting the permit price ?

Well I found the answer to Question # 1 . The prices listed above are what the permits will be sold for this season. They have alocated $18 from each permit to pay for the insurance for the OFSC . I was also told that Bill 101 ( our deed with the devil ) has been signed for this year and permits are being printed as we speak and should *be released on time this year.


revrnd : In answer to one of your earlier questions , I have come up with 18 employes, some are full time some are part time and some are contract.

On another note :
How much does the big brass make at the OFSC ? *
Guess what your not the only one wanting to know this there is a motion being presented at the AGM to have this information released to us.

On good note the permit price for the 2003/2004 *season is proposed to stay at $140 before Dec 1 and $190 after Dec 1
Definatly a good reason to buy early


Thats all I can say for now ......

If anyone is curious about the "deal w/ the devil" the OFSC has entered into w/ the Ontario government, here is the link,

http://gateway.ontla.on.ca/documents/StatusofLegOUT/b101ra_e.htm

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (paul yarek @ Jan. 14, 2002, 09:40am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but let us not forget the ontario licence sticker for $15.00 what is it for ? but you better have it.[/b][/quote]
$15 x 100,000 sleds, based on permit sales & the Ontario government rakes in 1.5 million. It would be nice to know if they&#39;re putting that money back into sledding.