Let's assume for a minute that Yamaha has nailed the new era for snowmobiling. Not to tuff for them to accomplish right? They have been making 4 cylinder 4 stroke for decades and obviously have had plenty of time to optimze the powerplant - 5 valves per cylinder, light weight and production of who knows how many engines a year - dare I say - probably serveral times more than all the snowmobile engines combined.
Let's also assume that it won't be hard for Arctic to make it happen with the susuki partnership. Where does this leave the skidoo and polaris 4 strokes. I think one of them better get in bed with Honda and the other with kawasaki and fast. I don't believe there's any way in hell that the money or the production economies will ever be there for skidoo or Polaris to develop an engine comparable to the Japs Motorcycle engines. What do you guys think? Fitch to the rescue? Victory to the rescue??? http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Well Bombardier owns alot of companies and they make jets for christ's sake so I don't see how they couldn't put together a good 4 stroke engine. Plus they own about every company that is into the direct injection so they should be getting that out on a sled pretty soon and those are supposed to rip and have good emissions just like the 4 srotkers.

Simple. *Rotax or bombarider will just buy out there engineers. *But they dont even need to. *Rotax has been making bike engines for BMW and others and can whip somthing up in no time for a sled. *

Yamaha is always playing catch up with doo and cat and i cant see much changing. *As far as im concerned they took a step back. *4 stroke just arent for me. *

I dont see what all the celebration is about. *For months everyone has told me the mach z sucks at handling because its two heavy and such. *Now heres yamaha with a 4 cylinder and its all of a sudden the best and the mxz and other machines are forgotten.

bigdaddy,
some good ideas there and yes yamaha has the motorcycle experience same with suzuki so cat will benefit from that. polaris has the victory motorcycle, it is a four stroke and will come in handy as time goes on. ski-doo has been building motorcycle engines for bmw and along with their planes, trains and automobiles they have a huge corporate base.

so i think not one of them is going to fall from the view of the competitions taillights.

i agree Bombardier has deep pockets, but they also need to make money. puting a BMW V twin or V4 in a sled? *When was the last time you saw a BMW motor cycle win any races - especially 1/4 mile ones. I am not rushing out to by a four stroke quite happy with my 2 strokes. Just food for thought.

bigdaddy,
have yourself a beer with that food too. *http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Rotax makes excellent engines, unfortunately I think the biggest 4 stroke they make is a 650 single? *They could easily come up with a competetive 4 stroke, it's not like an inline 4 requires a magic spell to create or anything like that - that's the stuff engineers are paid to do!! http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The new Yamaha looks pretty cool, but there's always room for improvement. *I know tat it'd have to be pretty darn good to plop down $9000 for the right to own it.

It's ALL Good Paul http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I don't think any of the four would have a problem with building a 4 stroke to match what yamaha has built. *The question is will they build one??? *I would say that Polaris would have the most work ahead of them as the only 4 stroke they produce right now are low revving V-twins for their Victory motorcycles(I think). *I don't think they would have a problem building one, but they have the least experience to go on. *KEEP THE TWO STROKES!!!

I can almost garentee you that Cat, Bombarider and polaris has a highpowered 4 stroke sitting on a work bench or already in the machine. *There not stupid. *I just hope none of them build them. *

2 strokes are still the way to run.

Polaris has Direct Injection 2 strokes in their watercraft. I would think that they would use that technology in their sleds instead of a hi performance 4 stroke. I read somewhere recently that a 2 stroke beat out the 4 strokes for the Clean Sled Challenge this year.

Lee

Well guys, I'm sure I'll start a fury of posts but the yam looks awsome and is going to have more power than there srx. that deserves alot of respect. So much so that I believe I may just go down lay the dwn-pmt for one soon, possibly though I doubt that I plan on getting a mountain viper also for out west,east and up in the deep up back country. It has the suspension, motor, emissions, and the looks. I Doo hope S-Doo comes out with a competitve 4-stroker as promised. Not for me though. Raptor,R-6, And now the RX-1.

There had better be some damn snow someplace next winter though.

Just my 2cw
Caleb

I believe the motor in the Mini-Z is a Honda. So that might be thought, using the CBR motors in the bigger sleds.

Fellow Two strokers,

2 stokes are still going to rule. *I bet bombardiers got somthing up there sleaves.

Not sure what just happened there. Anyhow, two stroke guys should be chomping at the bit. Think of the deals that will be out there as everyone rushes to buy the four bangers. I myself will wait a couple of years to let the competition evolve and let the bugs get ironed out. I have to believe that pricing on both new and used two strokes will get agressive in the next couple of years. I do believe we have to thank Yahmee for this "awakening" This is a "concession" that we as the snowmobile community have given to the environmental-cases and it will work out in the long run as technologies will evolve to make sleds better and eventually cheaper. Anybody ready to give away their 02 700mxz?

Not sure what just happened there. Anyhow, two stroke guys should be chomping at the bit. Think of the deals that will be out there as everyone rushes to buy the four bangers. I myself will wait a couple of years to let the competition evolve and let the bugs get ironed out. I have to believe that pricing on both new and used two strokes will get agressive in the next couple of years. I do believe we have to thank Yahmee for this "awakening" This is a "concession" that we as the snowmobile community have given to the environmental-cases and it will work out in the long run as technologies will evolve to make sleds better and eventually cheaper. Anybody ready to give away their 02 700mxz?

Machzzz is right, you can bet they have 4 stroke motors on the bench as we speak. *Doo is already on the leading edge for 4 strokes on sea-doos, don't think for a minute that they haven't been doing research for sleds at the same time.

Hey Machzzz have an open mind, 2 strokes are the cat's ### right now, but give it a few years of progression, and we'll all be riding 4 strokes and happy about it. *Thats whats great about technology and research. *Things just keep getting better and better.

FishHog

I wouldn't worry about Ski-Doo. *Rotax (owned by Ski-Doo) I believe makes engines for Aprilia motorcycles. *Aprilia is very competitive in world superbike competition! *Bombardier has also cornered the market on Direct Fuel Injection technology by purchasing OMC and in turn FICHT.

Polaris and Ski-Doo have a bit of an assovciation already inasmuch as Rotax is a subsidiary of Bombardier as is (now) OMC which came with the FICHT injector technology which Polaris is using on their 4 stroke engines. As for Polaris having no association with any Japanese engine makers, wrong. Fuji Heavy Industries, the builder of many Polaris engines, is also associated with the manufacter of Subaru engines. Look under the hood if you doubt that. Just a couple more thoughts.....

Bombardier bought Evinrude (outboard motors) a couple of year ago and they have excellent 4 stokes. Outboards were suppose to be 2 cycle engines only because small boats couldn't take big, heavy motors but the outboard industry proved this wrong. With all the experience Bomb. has with 4 strokes and all types of vehicules, I'm sure they'll come up with something good.

What I don't understand is that over a year ago I started riding sport bikes. *And I got on the SW website and asked everyone why don't Cat and Yam put their sportbike engines in the snowmobiles? *I thoght that would put an end to the national park debate at that time. *The responses I got from fellow readers was that it couldn't be done. *I think the reasons were that the clutching wouldn't work with the rpm range, and the engines wouldn't work in the cold, etc. *I can't remember the people that replied to me, but I bet some of them are the ones that are now saying that they knew this was coming and that the big 4 have it all figured out.

I think the change over to 4 strokes is good. *I like to see new technology. *Anyone else on this board that has ridden or owns a sportbike knows that they make serious power, great acceleration, and they are light. *They are getting better each year. *However I don't want 2 strokes to dissapear and I don't think they will. *They will develope something to keep up with the four strokes and meet emisions. *Look at motorcross. *There is room for both. *Right now 4 strokes can't compete with the same size displacement, but if the market demanded it, the manufactures would put money into R&D and develope something that would beat the 2 strokes.

It will go back and fourth for ever. *Everyone has to understand supply and demand. *What ever there is a demand for, it will be supplied. *Right now the demand is for fast, light 4 strokes, and that is what Yami gave us. *In the next decade it will be for faster and lighter 2 strokes(probably big fast 3 cyl since everyone will begin to accept the heavier 4 strokes) *and then that is what we will get.

So everyone stop bickering and enjoy the great technology that we have. *I love it. *Bring on faster lighter 4 strokes, once 2 stroke twins are out of fad, the manuf. will bring out faster lighter 2 stroke trips to compete with the 4 strokes. *Peace.

I agree with JayJaysin to a large extent. The one thing I don't believe to be true is that most seem to think that building a 140-150 hp inline 5 valve *or any comparable configuratiin that fits in a sled can be done as easy as pie. I don't think any Arctic,Skidoo and especially Polaris would want to spend the money to develop a 140+ four stroke when they are readily available from Japan. It's not that they can't - it's that the payback on the development would be hard to achieve. Remember this Yamaha engine just didn't fall off the test bench it's been refined for over 20 years. Why do you think the Mach Z has been in the CK3 since '98. Because there isn't enough payback from the R&D *relative to the units sold to justify *a new one. Isn't easier to develop a chassis than a lightweight 140+hp 4 stroke. Hell Polaris has a new chassis for something every year. These guys are in business to make money not to give us whatever we demand no matter what the cost. *I love my 2 stokes, I love the smell, the sound, everything, but if I was going to buy a new sled that would beat an SRX and has 65% more low end torque than an SRX, I would have to look closely at a sled that offers this. Hell it's already lighter than my Mach Z http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif. This is an exciting time to be in the sport. As long as they keep making 'em them with better handling and trying to improve the performance I'll be addicted to the sport. *http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Don't forget that 4 strokes were used in the early snowmobiles but were quickly replaced by 2 stroke engines. Four stroke outboards were and still are very heavy, often about 100 pounds more than the equivalent horsepower 2 strokes. The manufacturers have, so far, not made great headway in reducing the weight. Getting rid of the cam(s) and developing lighter weight and reliable electronic valves will be a start. I don't look for high horsepower light 4 stroke engines in snowmachines or outboards any time soon. The one thing I've observed which does make heavy 4 strokes, at least outboards, more palatable is the fact that as environmental regs have pushed for cleaner engines, the two strokes have gotten heavier. The clean technology comes at the expense of more and heavier stuff like compressors, pumps, etc. This in turn has made the clean two strokes almost as heavy as equivalent four strokes so the switch is not quite so tough to adjust to.

How long will you have to crank on this four banger to get it started? Have you tried to warm up a crotch rocket, it takes forever on full choke, a half hour on a 600 4cylinder at 35-40degrees. They will have to richen choking systems alot, and you won't be able to slip your helmet and gloves on and expect it to perform like our two strokes. Foresee needing to bring along a spare battery on trips. http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I'll bet that Yamaha will have a 120V plug for the blockheater sticking out of the hood. *Just like a Peterbilt with a C-16 Cat!!

Mark http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Part of me wonders if Yamaha hasn't just sped up the death of the 2 stroke? *http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

People talk about the durability of a four stroke well being a boater I can say that the switch to four stroke is not a good one take a four stroke and run it under a load for to long and knock knock knock go the rod bearings try it with your car go run it at 6000 rpm for about 5 hrs.well the same goes for the outboard if you run it at fast cruising rpm for to long it will spin a bearing.think about how a car starts at 0 deg turns over slow have to warm it up for ever till everything is loosened up because the oil is to thick for it to flow.the performance dif between a 90 hp 4stroke outboard and a 90hp 2 stroke is the 2 is two boatlenths ahead before the 4 gets out of the hole.and the weight dif is about 30lbs.I could go on forever against the 4stroker. but think about it.how about this it takes a 1000 cc 4s to make the same power of a 700 2s also what is your insurance agent going to say when you need to insure a 1000 cc sled and you have a few speeding ticks or a claim from a perevious sled.

Bigdaddy
Bombardier has made 4 strokes for years and this past fall they released the first 4 stroke watercraft that comes in a mild state of tune .anyways the rotax 4 tech (1494cc) 4-stroke 3 cylinder Rotax SOHC with 12 valves and multi-port fuel injection *is Rated at 155 hp. and this motor exceeds the 2006 watercraft emissions so actually rotax is ahead of the game.And they have the new a arm chassis that is *dominating racing this season .now put the two together??? also suzuki made the 4 strokes for omc not bombardier and seadoos also come with orbital and rotax fuel injection *RFI...and ficht injection is only on the omc lines.

Hopefully Ski-Doo and the other manufacturers will ignore the Yamaha hopeful, and see what it can do first. *We still need 2 strokes out there to kick the 4-strokes but. *I hope we can see the 4-stroker race this fall in the grass drags so that everyone can see how poorly it performs against a 2 stroker. *The way they talk they will be snocrossing this thing!

Just to add a point, I think the one thing most don't realize is that the push to 4 strokes is not something the manufactures are doing because they want to, its because they are going to have to. *A few years ago the government passed legislation pushing companies to end the production of 2 strokes in outboards because of the amount of polution they create. *Eventually 2 strokes will be a thing of the past. *Thats why all the manufactures have been tinkering around with them. *Yamaha just seems to have jumped in with both feet and they've produced what looks to be a well engineered performance sled. *Get used to 4 strokes guys, 2 stroke extinction is eminent.

Nobody has mentioned that besides an aftermarket exhaust, how expensive it will be to modify the 4 stroke - comparatively, extra hp from a two stroke comes much easier and cheaper!!!

well Polaris already has one the frontier so it isn't all that but wait a couple of years and you'll see.. yamaha has one how reliable is it with this engine with 4 cylnders

Check the ski-doo website and click on rotax engines. *It shows motorcycle engines and aircraft engine. *Also check out the site below


http://www.sebring-airport.com/lockwood/rotax.html

Rotax can build some hot engines easily

IMO 4-strokes will slowly become the dominant force in snowmobiling. All of these problems everyone talks about like rod bearings going out, not starting in the cold etc.....will not be a problem with proper maintenance, and good quality lubricants etc..... I welcome the day when a 4-stroke sled weighs only 20 lbs more than the equivalent two-stroker....I will be taking the 4-stroke hands down. great mileage, smooth torque, durability, no more filling the oil tank etc...I dont know about you but especially when they put closed loop management systems with efi on them, they will start and run like your car, hit the key and go! No extended warmups etc....4-strokes will do so many jobs better than 2-strokes, and engines will probably never need rebuilding in the average life cycle. No finicky jetting issues. However, for now it is the two stroke until I see how this will pan out.

Originally posted by bigdaddy@Jan 16 2002, 08:26 PM
Where does this leave the skidoo and polaris 4 strokes. I think one of them better get in bed with Honda and the other with kawasaki and fast. I don't believe there's any way in hell that the money or the production economies will ever be there for skidoo or Polaris to develop an engine comparable to the Japs Motorcycle engines.
i don't know if ski-doo needs to get in good with any 4 strokes from the success of the past 2 seasons with the SDI.

Any reason why you're diggin up 2 year old posts Paul? :lol:

time on his hands,,,,no snow,,,,but he does have a valid point.

Paul how many pages did you have to go back to find a 2 year old post???

It is funny to read this post and see what everybody thought two years ago. You know what they say about hindsight....

I think the guy who wrote that post 2 years ago is still riding 2 stokes

I just finished reading all those posts thinking it was a good time for an SW virtual war-of-words, only to find out these comments were 2 years old!!!

Kinda looks funny in retrospect, doesn't it. I especially liked the post about how 4-stroke boat engines don't have the longevity or performance of a same-sized 2-stroke... :lol: As an owner of a well-used 10+ year old Honda outboard (that replaced the same size Mercury POS...), I can probably be more of an authority on the subject, rather than a speculator.... It runs as strong as the day it came home. Still starts first crank. Never stalls. Gets the boat up an plane faster and has a higher top speed than with the old Merc (same size). Did I mention never stalls??? Enough about that...

Even though I'm a big fan of the new Yamaha 4-strokes, and definitely feel that they're making tremendous head-way in the industry, I'm not sure why people feel that it is a threat to the 2-stroke engine. Certainly Bombardier's SDI offerings will keep the 2-stroke around for a long time to come. And, of course there's many other manufacturer's out there building similar SDI and DI systems that easily pass emission regulations for 2006 and 2010.

I'm sure we can all peacefully co-exist....

Thats what Skidoos goal is to keep the 2 strokes around for a long A$$ time.
I just cant see myself gettin used to a 4 stroke engine in a snowmobile.
To me it just wont be the same without the sound, smell, and the get up and go.
But like anything else if u had to get used to them u would in a heart beat.