: Xtra-10 Settings?
02-17-2003, 12:22 AM
I have a 97 xcr600se with about 4500mi and seem to have trouble getting traction on anything other than hardpack trails. Even on that, I can't even squeak any daylight under the skis. Sled runs awesome, no bogs, just seems to be poor weight transfer or something. I have 144 studs, have the frss in the high setting on the only hole available. The rrss is in the low setting in the forward set of holes. The rear limiter strap is about 1/4" from maxed out and the fronts are about 1/2" from maxed out. The front skid shock has the spring less than half way up the available adjustment area. I was thinking about moving the rrss into the rearward set of holes and lengthening the front straps. I elongated the holes for the shock pivot / inner idlers so I have the skid out to repair the holes and will get the shocks rebuilt since I am going through the trouble. Before I wore out my carbides on the plowed fields of Wisconsin, it did seem to corner fine, so preload is ok for now. By making the adjustments I mentioned, am I on track to get more hookup or transfer? I was also going to step up to the larger torsion springs since I weigh 230 and they are the originals. I assume I will have pushing problems if I make any adjustments to the front spring and straps? Can ski spring preload help compensate? From what I understand and have seen in this forum, the rrss moving to the rear holes should help, or have I been mislead? Any help is greatly appreciated.
By the way, now that my sled is tore apart we will probably get some snow for once this year in North Eastern Wisconsin. Conditions here are partly to mostly crappy for trail riding.
02-17-2003, 07:55 AM
rrss rear hole,set on low,or remove them altogether,front straps long as possible,your rear suspension springs might be set to high,sounds like you have enough f.skid shock pressure,loosen front ski shock pressure.
if it was cornering fine before,it won,t if your looking for transfer,hard to have both,
02-17-2003, 10:36 AM
YOU ALSO DO NOT WANT SKI LIFT!!!!!! you want to hook and go straight not lift the ski's. Thats the biggest misconception. You can stand any sled on end if you truelly wanted to but it won't win the race.
02-17-2003, 05:16 PM
I realize that ski lift is bad and that is not what I'm looking for. More traction so that I'm not as loose as I currently am on a groomed trail is my goal. I'm getting my shocks rebuilt since I have it apart. Could that also be a factor in the weight transfer issue? For aggressive trail riding do I want to couple the rear suspension sooner or later? Frss on high would be sooner correct? Is there any advantage in my situation to going with the heavier torsion springs and running the tension on the low setting? I currently run on medium to high depending on where I will be riding.
Thanks so far!
02-17-2003, 07:41 PM
You want wieght transfer - I'll get you some.
I know alot about those xcr's.
Set your front limiters high, 1/4 inch thread showing
Front shock - set circlip to 2nd, or 3rd ring from the top
Frss set on high
Rear spring preload to low
RRSS blocks to low and move them to the lower hole
You need to have the back end of the skid light to get maximum pivot.
But, you know what, you will have the slowest running XCR around.
Been there - done that.
These aggressive chassis XCR's can be the fastest thing on snow with proper set-up. I just came back from 1 week up north running faster than 600 ho REVs.
The key to these chassis is the weight of the front end and the CRC front steering. When well set-up you can corner well over 65mph and still stay flat as a rock!
While your twisting down the stretches, the Bombardiers are fighting inside ski lift and risking roll-overs.
Proof to this, 1 MXZ REV had a roll-over at speeds that I found really easy to turn, and a s-chassis MXZ flipped twice that week at low speeds.
But - to each their own
02-17-2003, 10:44 PM
I assume the recipe you gave me is for maximum transfer? In your opinion, where is a good starting point (specific settings) for a compromise between weight transfer and handling / cornering? I realize you can't have the best of both worlds, but from what I hear about these sleds there has to be a better setup than what I have without upgrading sleds.
02-18-2003, 10:41 PM
been thinking about your problem for a while, and can't really think of a good set-up.
-If you go too light on the coil spring, your going to bottom out.
-If you keep the Frss on high, the small stutter bumps are going to pile drive your spine
- If you tighten up on the front shock spring your going to have trouble cornering.
I think your best bet is to try Frss high, torsion at low, and rrss at lowest position. Do this with your front preload at about 1/2 and limiters all the way up.
If it's too choppy, lower the Frss.
Sorry I can't help more.
Just a thought, Al mickahicks is probably the most knowledgable person I have discussed suspension tuning with on this site. Maybe he can set you up better.
02-18-2003, 11:13 PM
I've been watching this post because I have the same sled.
I went to Grayling last weekend and my back is still sore.
I haven't touched anything because I wanted some miles first. I have access to a pps shock but is this the way to go? I'm about 90% trail so I want to tune for that.
If you tuners have any advice I would greatly appreciate any help you can give
Here's a link on the xtra10
02-19-2003, 12:42 AM
I read the link that ebgb68 posted and found it interesting. I've found that the more you remove your skid the easier it gets and I guess if I tried what the article suggests I could always go back since I'm getting better at it. I am worried about running my torsion springs on low, but I have new ones on order so that may help. As I ripped apart the skid to get the shocks out I was wondering what the upper front shock mount was for and that article explained it somewhat. I also noticed that the front torque arm tube that has the shock swing arm mounted to the rearward area of it (assembled before welding at the factory) has a crack through the entire diameter of the tube. I work at Miller Electric and am surrounded by welders all day, but since the part is basically in half and the crack is under the swinging arm portion, I will forego the cheap fix and order a new part. Between the shocks, worn springs, and busted parts, it is a mystery that the thing moved at all. Thanks for all your help on this. Any further thoughts or comments are welcome. Madsledhead, I hope my problems don't drive you mad during the day! Thanks.
02-19-2003, 10:15 AM
Your note the other day with the settings you were running, after messing around with it for a weekend,
caused a major change in my previous line of thought.
I was at a dead end, and facing some rough trails last weekend. Took your settings/logic and transfered them to my '02 XC8. In short, after a little tweaking, I couldn't believe I was on the same sled.
We have a 230 lb experienced rider that runs with us on a 98 700 XCR. Very good driver. We are messing with the settings on his sled, using lessons learned from above. So we only have the one weekend (500 miles) of tweaking with it. Our main plan is very high performance trail use. This will cause all compromises to be slanted towards positive handling first. In other words, the front end needs to be planted first, then everything else follows. Settings in use as of now:
He is also running 144 1" studs
Polaris metal EZ-Steer kit in place, using 6" carbides.
IFS springs set tight enough to prevent rattle with no weight on the front end(sled on it's side) -in other words, very little pre-load.
Same story on front rear suspension spring, very little preload. Personnal taste here. Obviously slanted in this case towards the positive front end. Steering on straights sensitive.
Front straps have 1/4" threads showing, we'll be changing that to 1 full thread.
Rear straps removed completely
FRSS low, RRSS front hole, medium, higher in the rough.
HD torsion springs installed, on medium
He's now reporting no (or VERY little) ski lift in corners, good traction, neutral handling in corners (machine will fade to the outside under hard acceleration). Firm, but comfortable ride in Saturday afternoon stuff. Not the bone jarring we had previously. We are working on the firm part now.
Hope this helps, and thanks for the ideas Madsledhead.
I think you're the one with the knowledge here...
02-19-2003, 10:29 AM
Here's a link to look at. This is where I'm at now,thought I would try this.
02-19-2003, 10:02 PM
All of these suggestions are right on the money for a "ski-yankin', snow flap blastin', stud spittin' holeshot terror, BUT let me give you a little tip, most of the above mentioned adjustments will definately compramise cornering bite. Too much weight transfer on the Xtra-10 will develop a nasty push throttleing out of the corners. So try to dial in a happy medium, of good holeshot traction, and good cornering. Good luck,
02-19-2003, 11:03 PM
I agree, no handling through the corners = trees and brush. I'm in process of getting things repaired and cleaned up, so in the mean time I'm eager to learn more about the xtra-10. What does the frss control? The soaking up of stutter bumps? If I understand correctly, it determines how soon the front of the skid borrows travel or coupling from the rear? So, does a high setting (nub to the back) mean I will handle the stutters better / sooner or harsher ride? Does the rrss then control weight transfer? Does further back equal more transfer? When or why would I move the shaft lower within the scissors? Not that I want to, but I would like to satisfy the thirst for knowledge on this beast. Just killing time waiting for parts and trying to determine what setup I start with. I think Michahicks has a good starting point, but I do know where I am at today and could go extreme and back up. I now have similar handling in the corners, but loose on the straightaways Bad thing is that they closed the trails here in NE Wisconsin due to a lack of snow. I may use the lake as a test and then head north for testing trail performance. Not much snow until the UP from what I hear. By the way, what material or type of grinding wheel (bench grinder) would work for sharpening carbides? I see Shadetree sells a green wheel for $25. I would think there is a cheaper alternative.
02-20-2003, 10:24 AM
Geez Popeye, your as bad as I am. Lots of questions nobody wants to answer.
On the FRSS, you're right, the higher the setting, the sooner it contacts the scissor arm, when suspension is hit in the front, and the sooner it couples. We've been finding the high setting a little too much of a good thing. RRSS controls the same thing, only with messages coming from the rear, as in coming down off a bump or a jump, landing on the back. We like to run that on high when the going gets rough, back off a little when things smooth out.
The more coupling you are using, the more you will spin your track. End of story. Just ask the M-10 guys. Those machines are full time coupled with very little adjustment available to control it. That's why the guys with the Edge have a slight advantage if they are willing to mess with them. Coupling also sacrifices weight transfer. If you want a lesson on weight transfer, remove your RRSS. It won't hurt a thing...until you get to a corner. Front end becomes a little unpredictable at that point.....
I might be mistaken, but I think the holes in the scissor arm are for lightening purposes?
Sharpening carbides is a waste of material for a trail machine. The guys doing that are racing on the ice. The rocks and pavement will wear them all too quickly anyway.
02-20-2003, 12:17 PM
I personally didn't care too much about weight transfer, I ride, I am not into constant drag racing all my buddies. I had a '98 XC700, which hooked up very well, once some studs were added. I did however have a bad push exiting the apex of corners. I rotated the RSS blocks to the min. gap, and made a huge difference. It did however stiffen up the overall dampening in my rear suspension. Every adjustment you will make will have a positive, and a negitive reaction, it's all about "balance". Don't be afraid to systematically play with all the suspension adjustments available, and you will quickly learn how each component reacts. Only make one adjustment at a time! This way you will know immediately if you made progress or not. Good luck,
02-24-2003, 10:13 AM
Hey Popeye I'm interested in what adjustment you went with?
Have my sled down for awhile.
I'm replacing bearings,rebuilding front shock adding pps to rearand new hyfaxes.
As soon as i find a new used track I can start testing these settings.....
03-04-2003, 12:14 AM
Here is where I am at now that I have things together. I had a chance to put on about 100mi this weekend and was amazed at what I had done with everyones help. It was like a different sled! I increased preload on the front skid shock to about 2/3 of the total distance. Why? My rubber bumpers on the rails were smashed and split and the rails had hammered spots from the front end of the skid bottoming out on them. I bought new torsion springs and set them to low. The new springs really took out the sag and even on low I haven't bottomed out yet and I'm about 230lbs. I loosened the front limiters to about 3-4 threads showing. The rear limiter strap was left alone at about 2-3 threads showing. I moved the rrss to the back hole and turned the block to high setting and left the frss on either a medium or high setting. I had both shocks rebuilt as well. I also tried sharpening my carbides. Best $15 I've spent. (green wheel from Grainger) It put on a decent edge freehanded by sharpening on a bench grinder. Could get maybe two more sets out of the wheel before it is too small in diameter.
With all of the changes, I get almost twice the holeshot traction as I did before and have gotten rid of the scary shuffle action that took place at 60-90mph. I can actually pull the skis off the ground if I sit or stand way back (it isn't a very light sled like the new twins). I have more ski lift in the corners than before (which was almost none) but the tradeoff is the ability to get traction out of the corners, whereas before I just spun the track for a few sled lengths. If I hold the line in the corners I can power through them pretty decent with the inner ski sort of teetering. It is possible to get some good inner lift in the corners if you go into them turned and jerk it straight a few times for a little one skied excitement and fun if your messing around. I love what I did and seems to suit how I like to ride which is aggresive trail.
The worst part is getting beat by 2002/2003 500xcsp's on the holeshot, but I don't let it get to me too much since my sled is about 200lbs heavier with rider. Plus I paid a lot less. Now, how do I fix the holeshot issue? Clutch tuning or clutch kit? I don't seem to have any flatspots, just too soon of engagement. Motor runs great, so I hate to mess with it, but would like to tweak the clutched if I knew what to do. I read that maybe a tooth less on the top sprocket would help. Is that true?
Another chapter in the quest for knowledge!