: The great debate
01-17-2002, 03:26 PM
Seems funny that the rx 1 is only a couple of days old and already people are either raving about its potential or rippin it in defense of their 2 stroke or cursing yamaha for potentially screwing up future sales of sleds. so here's my 2 cents worth for what its worth.
First off, hats off to yamaha on a rather bold leap into this new and untamed market. unfortunately its a little much price and power wise (and possibly a little radical looks wise) for the "average" person who may eventually prefer a 4 stroke for durability, quiet and gas milage. Less than a year from now we will start hearing the stories about wheither or not this "blue bandit" live up to the hype or not, only time will tell.
The single most important thing I feel about this step is that it does several things for this sport. for the "tree huggers" it provides a positive step toward cleaning up a sport that like it or not has not been "keeping up with the jones'" as far as 2 stroke technology is concerned. It also provides a suitable power requirement for those who require it. And one thing it may do that some are neglecting to think about is that this step toward cleaner, quieter sledding may in fact be the basis for saving our trail systems and riding areas that are coming under fire more every day and you all know the last thing you want to do is lose your trail system you live for every winter. Just remember there are a couple hundred thousand (or whatever) sledders against a few hundred million who dont. I think this step will also push the others into applying DFI and the likes into 2 strokes to clean them up as well. So all around I think its a good first step.
This is just my opinion and doesn't mean crap to anyone but my self but i think some issues need to be put into perspective.
Dont be afraid of a little change. 2 years from now you just might be sitting on a DFI 800 twin/tripple becuase of these changes and loving every minute of it..steve
01-17-2002, 03:36 PM
Steve - you have made some very good points and I agree wholeheartedly. *I think this new Yamaha is going to bring about some interesting changes in the whole industry. *It may be the kick in the a, oops, buttocks that the other manufacturer's need.
I am a die-hard big-iron Cat man, but hats off to Yamaha - they have produced a nice sled! *Let us see how the others react.
Happy sledding, buddy!!
01-17-2002, 03:50 PM
I'm with you Rottie. *I couldn't have said it better myself.
Don't be afraid of alittle change....... http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
01-17-2002, 04:13 PM
The new Yamaha won't be for everyone, if it was, the other three manufactureres wouldn't sell any snowmobiles next year. * However, it will be "the right sled" for some people and for those people, I hope its fun, reliable and they are glad they bought it. * Yamaha will say it's the greatest snowmobile ever made, and why would their marketing department say any different? * Could you imagine them saying: *"We just spent millions making a new model, but we hope you don't buy it because we would rather have our engineers drive it for three more years to work the bugs out. * For those that buy it, I think they should expect there may be a couple bugs to work out, hopefully very minor ones, as I'm sure Yamaha isn't selling it with the hopes that everyone has a bad experience owning it. * We all win, when we can choose 2 or 4 stroke; one or two up; 45, 85, or 145 hp; fan or liquid; green, blue, red, or yellow. * I'll keep riding my Arctic Cat ZL 2 stoke and thinking its the best one made, and I know others will be of the opinion that a different make or model is better, and I'll respect their opinion, even though I know I'm right and they are wrong - LOL! * Some people may want a 300 hp, 2 stroke, nitrous oxide, turbo charged, direct injected, pink snowmobile, but how many, and how many of us would pay $100,000 for it? * Not me! * So lets be thankful that all the manufacturers, Yamaha included, are trying to offer a variety of models to satisfy most (but not all) of us.
01-17-2002, 04:40 PM
Man, I would sure hate to toss a con rod in that engine when the sled is out of warrenty. I would probely have to go to a bank for a loan. I wonder what that eng. is worth?http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
01-17-2002, 05:15 PM
I would guess it's going to be pretty darn relaible. *Rods, cranks ect. go thru more torture in 2 strokes since they run so much hotter. *If the first tune-up is at 27K i would think the warrenty would be at least 10K. *If they come out w/ some BS like a 1yr. warrenty then i would assume it's not as reliable as "they" say.
01-17-2002, 06:18 PM
First off hats of to yamaha because it is a cool sled and it can perform. *
But... *As far as the tree huggers go this thing is still loud maybe louder since the exhaust is right out the back. *It still polutes just it doesnt have the smoke and other then that it is just heavy. *I heard you guys talking like 5 lb heavier then the srx. Well yamaha had somewhere on there web sight somthing like 15 to 20lb heavier. *
So yamaha built a heavy 4 stoke that doesnt fix any of the 2 stroke problems. *
Now i will be the first to say that heavy isnt bad. *But if you can knock of some weight why not just stick with the 2 stokes. *
Also this year a 2 stoke polaris engine made less emitions then a 4 stroke but also gained 5 hp. *This wasnt even with DFI it was with special carbs and a modified muffler. *Put DFI on the 2 stokes and the greenies will have nothing to say. *THey shouldnt even say anything now. *Snowmobiles are only out in bulk for 4 or 5 months this year hopfully 2 and its mostly on the weekends. *I bet our lawnmower makes more polution. *So who cares about that issue.
As for reliability. *Well say what you want but my Yamaha atv engines seem to break down more then my skidoo and there pressed now where near as hard. *My last one made it to 9000km and then started eating oil big time. *I have seen rotax 583, 500, and some triples make it over 26000km with nothing done to there engines. *Yamaha claims this 4 stroke is running 11.8 to 1 compression thats real high. *And head gaskets and such might be an issue. *
My views are that the manufactors should develop the 2 stokes and forget the 4 stokes. *4 strokes are fine for atvs and other things that need the torque but in winter on skidoos i want my simple 2 stoke. *
Ever think about how long it would take to replace a piston on one of these 4 stokes at a dealer. *I would say a 2 stoke would be about 2 hours or less and a 4 stoke would probably be a day job for a dealer. *That means that if somthing happens during the season warrenty or not your going to have a long downtime. *
ANd last most of the fun i have with snowmobiles is dialing in the 2 stokes the clutches the carbs. *If need be take the head of for inspection. *But this 4 stoke thing scares me. *Its a maze of japanise technology and everything is expencive and parts are on the other side of the planet. *
2 StOKES FOREVER!!!
01-17-2002, 06:32 PM
I just checked out the sled at the Yamaha website. *Specs look pretty good for the racing folks. *I for one like the idea of the four strokes finally getting put into the machines. *If something can be improved, why not? *I for one am hoping and praying that the national park snowmobiling ban can be overturned. *These machines will help this happen.
The warranty for the one who was asking about it is one year. *Seems pretty standard for the industry from what I've read online.
01-17-2002, 07:19 PM
9000 is a bit high for a new introduction sled.especialy for a 1 year warranty . I think 6-7000$ 2or3 year warranty would sell a lot better . I still think 2 strok is good for ditchen couz of the weight but for that long trail ride that yamahahaha may have somthing
01-17-2002, 07:35 PM
not being a real sledhead I won't try to impress anyone about twostroke or 4 stroke.
I want performance & *quiet from my equipment *Having a hearing loss and riding *my 2 stroke sleds means I have to wear ear protection when I ride and that is a real pain in the butt ( ears also) *my 4 stroke atv I can stand to ride without ear protection. *however I am not willing to give up the horsepower on my sled just so I don;'t have to wear ear protection. *I don't really care if they put a v 8 engine in the sled just make it quiet. http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
01-17-2002, 11:06 PM
First of all there are two things about the RX-1 that we have to point out. The first is that it is going to have its problems. It is too new of a concept to expect otherwise. Second it may not perform like it is supposed to. Either way, eventually they will work the bugs out and I don't care what anyone says...two strokes will never be as clean or reliable as a a four stroke in the long run. If it doesn't out-perform the two-strokes then these other factors will prove it to be just as good as a buy. Anyone who thinks that two-strokes are just as clean has got to get their head out of the a#@. Sorry but this is reallity. You can talk about direct injection but that has an even longer way to go than the RX-1. Even then it still won't be as reliable. So there, these are the facts, now we have to learn to except them.
01-17-2002, 11:28 PM
Get your facts strait. *2 stroke have been made cleaner then 4 stokes and the cleaner 2 stoke made more power then the dirtyer 2 stoke. *This was done with carbs not DFI. *When DFI comes out and this new technology is used 2 strokes will be cleaner and lighter and faster then 4 strokes can ever be. *Look how that 4 stroke needs 4 cylinders to make 150hp and it already has the best stuff on it like performance exhaust and probably since it was the R1 engine thats done up as well. *All this and a 2 stroke twin 670HO with some mods can match that. *Not to mention the Mach z which makes more then that and its only a 800 triple. *
I wont fight you on the reliability thing you got a point there. *But I wonder if these 4 strokes will live up to what everyone says. *
Summer storage is what kills both 2 and 4 stroke engines. *But It hits the 4 strokes harder because the storage oil cant and wont get on the valves and cams. *An other thing that kills the engine is how only run them in cold weather. *Everything expands and then contracts when we cool it down. *A snowmobile engine is under the harshest enviroment. *I think the 4 stokes will be having the same problems as the 2 stokes. *Sure they may operate better but i dont think you can escape the other things i just mentioned. *
Now how much is that going to cost everything is cheaper on a 2 stroke and much easier to do it yourself. *This new 4 stroke and all the 4 strokes to come are going to be a nightmare. *
I own a 150 2 stroke yamaha outboard. *This thing is 11 or 12 years old and never needed a tune up. *But its running all year and only needs to be stored for a short emount of time. *My 1978 everest has no cowl on it and when it rains it rains into the carb. *But it starts on the first pull. *
Both will have problems but unlike the 4 stokes ours will be easier and cheaper to fix.
01-18-2002, 12:30 AM
It's all about pushing the envelope, and it all helps. *Cleaner, more dependable 2 strokes, or high power to weight ratio dependable 4 stokes... *Doesn't matter to me, it's all good.
I'm not going to be the first on board, but I'm all for any company that's willing to try. *Remember when fuel injection and onboard computers we just getting going in cars? *High tech gadgetry that was unreliable and expensive right? *A lot of people, me included, didn't want any part of it. *Who here would trade a 2002 Silverado, F-150, or RAM for a '76 c1500, f150 or RAM(powerwagon?)? *It took time, but after a few wrong turns it came around. This could be a wrong turn, or the future, who knows and who cares.
From a sheer "if you're gonna do it, do it right" standpoint I have to laugh. *Cat builds a heavy, slow limited production 4 stroke sled, Polaris follows the next year doing the same. *Then Doo comes out with what looks to be a more powerful and sporty 4 stroker but still limited production and no where near current 2 strokes, and all 3 of them shoehorned into existing chassis. *Then Yamaha comes along and says "hey guys, we got this 4 stroker, that will match or beat ours our your top-of-the-line muscle sleds, in a completly new chassis and you can order it this spring"
Got to love it. *It sounds like Yamaha is adapting the Colin Powell doctrine "Overwhelming Force".
01-18-2002, 07:41 AM
machzzzz1 is right there is a 2 stroke out there that has been made cleaner that the current four stroke sleds on the market.it was a modified polaris in the clean air challenge last year.
01-18-2002, 01:55 PM
Dooman is right, came right out of Snotech Magazine, I believe.
01-18-2002, 03:57 PM
If you are concerned about summer storage machzzzz1, you will be able to start the 4-stroke more often without worrying about it loading up like a 2-stroke
01-18-2002, 04:14 PM
First, *I don't want to bash anyone, *I've been riding yamaha for 13 yrs. *Good points from all of you. *This sled won't be for everyone so don't get excited. *It's going to be heavy or yamaha would state its actual weight. *Remember, *now you have a crankcase full of oil. *Also you are producing the same power with 4 cylinders that you have been doing with 2 and 3. *Performance mods are going to break the bank as will the price of this sled. *There are alot of oil companies now making enviornmentally friendly injector oils. *I personally will stick to my 2 strokes. *I just hope it isn't hard to tune like the fz1 I bought last summer.
01-18-2002, 08:53 PM
I've heard about the ultra clean 2 stroke engines. *Only problem is, that these are not in production, and are simply one off experimental jobs. *When looking at the emissions standpoint. *The comparason is between existing 2 stroke technology and the new 4 stroke engines. *I'm not playing down the improvements in 2 stroke engine technology, as they are vastly improved over the old JD clunker that I tinker with currently. *They still have a long way to go in the production form.
01-18-2002, 09:58 PM
I say hats off to yamaha. I thought when I saw four strokes comming it would be the end of the hod rod sled. But know I see diffrent. The only thing I can see is that some people think that the four strokes are quiet think again. Think back to last summer listing to motor cycles the harleys (I have heard talk of v-twins coming out in sleds) and the cbr, fzr ,gsxr s all of these bikes are great stock. But its when you put a moron owner at the parts counter with a vance n hines or a scream in eagle catolog in front of them when these machines become annoying to the public. Its the same thing with two strokes My mach z is pretty quiet with the stock exuast I have not had any complaints yet but one time I swiched with a friend and rode his 99 zrt 600 with d and d pipes boy what dirty looks I got when I pulled up to the gas pump with that. All I can say is keep vance and hines away from the pipes and even the tree huggers will like snowmobileing.
01-19-2002, 07:55 AM
The talk about price is interesting too. The RX1 is listed at $8,850. A 800 MXZ sport is $7,650 and a 700 legend lists for $8,150. Thr RX1 is also $1,000 less than a Mach Z. I don't think it's priced out of line. Not like a Blade or Redline.
01-21-2002, 10:11 AM
I agree with B D. The price of this sled seems extremely reasonable. How much was a 2002 T-Cat? I believe list was just shy of $11,000.00. This is a ground-breaking sled. A lot of you are talking about the small amount of horsepower made by this sled. They claim more than any twin, but the torque is what's impressive. 65% more torque than the big twins. Weight is supposed to be the same as an SRX 700 with electric start. Sounds like a pretty good package to me. If we could get some snow, I would like to ride one.