01-18-2002, 07:13 AM
Ya know im not one to stir up controversy but this 2 stroke - 4 stroke debate has a few ppl buzzin. Im no engineer so I cant tell you wheither or not beyond a shadow of a doubt which is a cleaner burning engine but I am pretty sure that engines are where they are today because of changes, some big, some small. All im saying is that these changes to our sport must happen in order for everyone, not just sledders to be able to continue to enjoy what i consider my favorite (and most expensive) hobby. I enjoy watching the passion flow from some of your fingers and wheither i agree or dismiss your comments i respect your opinions and love for the sport and your tenacity.
Just try to keep the big picture in perspective. We need to continue to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of our sport. Im not going to lose my right to ride because the manufacturer's didn't continue to evolve the products they sell.
Continue the debate..and long live Sledding!!!
01-18-2002, 07:50 AM
I agree. *Look at the car industry. *No car enthusiast wanted to see all of the smog junk show up on cars in the 70s. *The car companies had to scramble to make them emissions compliant, and the result was terrible performance. *But, it didn't take long before the car companies began to think outside the box and began to produce some amazing vehicles.
Look at the Z06 Corvette. *Do you really think that without the emissions laws that we'd have a car that's capable of running high 11 second 1/4s with virtually no mods, and getting 30mpg to and from the track? *Unheard of.
The snowmobile industry will likely follow suit. *With the introduction of the 4 strokes earlier this year, it all seemed that the snowmobile industry would follow a similar path. *I figured that the early 4 strokes wouldn't have much to offer in terms of high performance, but unlike the auto industry, the snowmobile industry has time to fine tune their products before we will no longer have the 2 strokes. *But Yamaha just beat everybody to the punch and has provided us with an ultra-high performance 4 stroke way before anybody expected it. *I'm sure that the other 3 aren't far behind.
4-stroke technology has some pretty major advantages. *In addition to burning very clean, it gets better milage and is more reliable & more durable. *4-strokes can be easily modified, and I suspect that high horsepower, highly modded 4-strokes will have a level of reliability & ridability that you can't get with a highly modded 2 stroke.
Then there's EFI. *On a 4 stroke, there's the very real possibility of running a closed-loop multiport injection system. *This will open all kinds of doors for performance. *With the 2-stroke, you can't really run a closed loop system because you can't keep an oxygen sensor clean. *Just wait until you see what a closed-loop EFI 4-stroke sled can do.
01-18-2002, 07:55 AM
Call me boring but i just hope that this 4 stroke doesnt slow things down.
It seemed like every year the manufactors were making big progress with sleds and engines. *Look at the skidoo f chassie in 96 to the zx in 2002. *Its two diffrent worlds. *Look at the engines. *The heavy rotary valve engines in 98 to state of the art cyl reed engines that sit low in the chassie in 2002. *
Look at DPM, RER, HAC, DESS, MPEM and all the other new technology bombardier has come up with just in the last 4 years. *Just for 2 stroke. *Look at RAVE valves and all the other hp trickery that they came up with.
Bombardiers not alone. *Look at yamaha with there detonation sensor. *
Look at arctic cat for there suspention. *
And polaris with the liquid cooled brakes and octain selector. *
And every year they keep improving and makeing bigger engines and new gimmiks come out. *Engines burn cleaner and were right on the front door of DFI and Yamaha desides to come out with this. *
What do you think all the manufactors are going to be reasearching for the next few years or so. *WHat do you think 2 stroke progress will be like if there all running to build a 4 stroke.
I have to admit that yamaha did it right. *I still dont know where bombardier got this V-twin idea thats sounds like a harley. *And why cat put such a low performing engine in theres. *If people can make there hondas do the quarter mile in 10s why couldnt cat make that engine compeat with 2 strokes. *
THe answer is simple. *They just made the 4 strokes to get the greenies of there backs. *But now yamaha like always is of doing there own thing and they just might have ruined it for all of us.
01-18-2002, 07:59 AM
I definately think that our sport is going to go through some major changes in the next 5 years or so.Some will be good and others bad.I personally think that it's a good idea to have the touring and small entry level sleds as 4-strokers.My opinion is that we will see a good attempt at 2-strokes with DFI in sleds very soon and i think it will work.Has anyone else here drove a johnson outboard with ficht fuel injection?Well in case you havn't,it kicks a@%.Awesome power and superior fuel economy with very low emmisions.So it can be done,guess we'll just have to wait and see. http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
01-18-2002, 08:12 AM
You hit the nail on the head..all of the changes you mentioned have bettered our sport (not without some bugs i might add) so its only logical that engine technology and emissions are next to be tackled. Most will agree that with most sleds falling within the 100-150 hp range provides most ppl with decent performance. the next step is simply to offer choice and hopefully part of that choice will be next gen 2 strokes as well. I dont think 2 strokes will die any time soon but they must adapt as well. You are quick to blame a lot of whats going on on the "greenies" but just from my experience if it wasnt for some of these "greenies" we wouldn't have a tree left standing here in northern ontario and there might not be the forestry management that there is today and Id much rather ride through a forest or along a tree lined lake than over hundreds of miles of farm land. Im not starting an arguement for or against them but they have their place and wheither you realize it or not some places where you ride are still there in part because of what they do. Just like the commercial says. "Its all about balance"
I do agree with some of the things you say, but there is the other side of the coin as well that needs to be looked at.
P.S. Its snowing..Steve
01-18-2002, 09:39 AM
Many good points being made...the fact is, progress doesn't come without experimentation. *Some of these strong feelings for/against Cat and Yami should be put on the back burner for now...but they prove that passion that snowmobilers have. *Wait til the Yami's out for a year and see what else hits the market. *It's not like each manufacturer only has one chance to offer a 4-stroke sled. *It's all a part of the big evolution picture...environmentalists included. http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif *All this talk of 4-stroke motivates the 2-stroke lovers to create the cleaner 2-stroke sled. *2-stroke, 4-stroke, 20-stroke, whatever it takes!! *I'll keep riding my current sled untill someone "proves" to me that they have a better/cleaner sled that still allows me to ride the way I want to ride. *Hat's off to all manufac-
turers for trying to better our sport...the result is we get better sleds.
IROC, did you know that Cadillac's next STS will be rear-wheel drive? *It's amazing how things have to run their cycles. *Have you driven the Z06...I have, it's truly awesome.
01-18-2002, 10:22 AM
Iroc. *DFI is not a throttle body type injection. *Its not like what arctic cat has on there snowmobiles thats Throttle body efi. *A closed loop system on two stroke would cause a loss in power compaired to a DFI.
DFI is a high pressure injection. *Efi is like 12 to 15psi of pressure. *Closed loop is like 30-50psi(not sure) *and DFI or FITCH or ORBITAL or what ever you want to call it is between 90 to 700psi depending on what works best.. *
THe performance of DFI will be awsome. *That is what the outboard have been using and Performance, Fuel economy and drivability have been up. *It uses an injector and with 700 psi it atomizies fast and makes a almost perfect combustion. *
Once this comes out there will be no more JETTING, Or fuel problems with the 2 strokes also. *I wouldnt even consider buying a 4 stroke untill i see whats going on with this.
01-18-2002, 11:30 AM
I dont understand why you are so close minded about 4 strokes machzzzz1. this DFI which you talk so much about (which i dont really understand, but i gather that it works something like a diesel) is a rather unproven technoligy compared to 4 stroke moters. *
the fact is, nobody really knows what is going to work the best. *it may turn out that no one can get the smalller 4 strokes to run right in the winter and they will be throwin rods all the time, or whatever, and dfi turns out to be a great success. *it also may be that dfi doesnt work for ####, and in 5 years, 2 stroke moters are gone completly. you cant say, but you have to keep an open mind about everything untill you have good reason not to like it.
snowmobiles are going to change, and you have to change with them.
just my $.02
01-18-2002, 03:58 PM
Though Honda does not make snowmobiles, I have always been an XR fan.
The 4 stroke technology does include High RPM. IMAGINE a lighter version of the V45 Intercepter motorcycle engine with no gearbox that operates at the 3500 to 9000 RPM range with CVT clutching, we are talking an engine that could push the 150hp mark.
01-19-2002, 09:34 AM
I hate having the 4 strokes shoved down my throat, but you have to admit these Yamaha's really look cool. *If they can out perform, and the key words are "OUT PERFORM" *the 2 stroke, then I will be interested. *Until then, no way.
01-19-2002, 02:17 PM
whos shoving 4 strokes down your throat? there are 3 count em 3 available and how many 2 strokes are still available?
nobody's stickin a gun to your head and tellin you what to buy. Oem's are finally offering a choice to those to want it. Simply put if you dont like it dont look at it.