It seems that lately the Manufacturers are using the public as guinea pigs,as in the 2003 Arctic Cat F7 fiasco and the 2003 SkiDoo MXZ800 troubles.

On paper the new DirectDrive seems like a winner,but will you be left on the trail with a broke $9000 sled???
???

Thats a good point you bring up! Iam a cat guy all the way and have recently snow checked my red f7 ext(got to love the 144 option)but the only reason i bought it know is because they have pulled the kinks out of the sled.The direct drive has been used by blade snowmobiles but I will be the first one to tell you,I live in Maine and have never seen a Blade on the trail so I have no idea if this direct drive is any good.They keep talking about the 11lb weight savings but as far as we know that weight might only save the sled thats pulling it home.I think I will ride my f7 this year and if the direct drive is a champ like it could possibly be I will be ordering a zr 900 sno pro for 2005. Until the end of next year the public will never know. P.S you are right how they use us the public as there research and development. Kind of wierd i think we buy it and we have to be the first to die with it!!!

Seems to me that they are adding a lot of parts to the machine, and the only benefit I can see is the space savings of not having the jackshaft.
The 11 lb. weight saving is debatable (A/C is famous for weight claims), this planetary might not even be as efficeint as the chain drive (there are 8 gears in it), and it will certainly be more expensive than the chain case.
But hey, that's progress and I give them credit for trying something new.

I agree we will see alot of progression in the jack shaft and drive systems in the years to come technology is fast and fun if handled properly! If it does work out cat will set the standards again for everyone to follow and i mean follow!!!!!! :p :p

I think if the direct drive works this will be an awesome sled for top end compared with it's 03 version with 11 pounds (maybe) less of rotating mass.

Don't forget, it's not just the 11 pounds of weight saving it's 11 pounds of rotating mass. Imagine making your track 11 pounds lighter! :p :p

Think about it :D :D :D :D

To be technical, the ACT system on the 04' Cats is not direct drive. ACT simply eliminates the chain case, replacing the case with planetary gears. Since I am a goofy mechanical engineer, anytime you can have planetary gears the easier your life will be. AC should only worry if the sprockets on the gears and gear teeth start breaking!

So SULLY being a mechanical engineer whats your prediction on the planetary gear holding up? Think it will? If it does start breaking teeth how hard is it going to be to replace it? I'am not a mechanic so thats why I ask.Although the planetary gear if it works does look like it could be fast and sweet!

Something else you might want to consider as an engineer is the Gyroscopic interia tha is removed from the crossshaft and how the remaining gyroscopic effect is lowered on the chassis.

I will just bet that that ZR chassis will handle even better than before with this setup. The lower gyroscopic effect will make it run on rails!

ZRJOE what is gyroscopic does it have something to do with the ergos of the chassie??does it give a different pitch or angle to the track?You Canadiens are some smart mother jumpers!! Ive never heard of gyroscopic and i've been from a machinist to a state worker!! :D :p

I think if Cat had any doubts about the reliablity they would have put in on the z570 or other less powerful models not the 900 which is the flagship for the zr chassis. If it is reliable no one can deny the benefits and we could expect to see it become standard through the cat lineup. Could be costly to repair if it breaks and parts availability could also be an issue the first season if the problem is widespread.

Originally posted by 97cougar@Mar 20 2003, 11:42 AM
ZRJOE what is gyroscopic does it have something to do with the ergos of the chassie??does it give a different pitch or angle to the track?You Canadiens are some smart mother jumpers!! Ive never heard of gyroscopic and i've been from a machinist to a state worker!! :D* :p
Well MACHINIST. take 11 pounds of metal and spin it on your lathe at 4500 rpm then try to turn it about another axis.
Pretty tough EH????


How do you think all those rockets and smart bombs are guided??
Yep that's right Gyroscopes!

Professional Engineer - Mechanical - 1983

Thanx ZRJOE thats the answer I was looking for.That gives me a little better perspective of whats going on here.I still get the feeling this is either going to work awesome or we could have a few years of hell!!But its a cat so it's gonna be good once the kinks have been figured out in the next two or so years! :D :p :p P.S I felt your sarcasm on the capitol lettered ,machinist you thought i should have known that and honestly i had no clue what that word was.Still don't know exactly what it means other then this picture of the lathe running in the back of my head while somebody tips the axis and all hell brakes lose!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZRjoe,

Any thought on the planetary drive system reliablity? It is my understanding that planetray drives have been used for many years in cars, tractors trucks etc. with a reputation for being very durable.

i think the "direct" drive will be fine after all it is basicly a gear to gear chain case just on the same side as the clutch...if ya ask me no chain to stretch and break is a plus and there have been gear to gear kits for a while....this is not a true direct drive there are still gears and a "chain" case of sorts .....so where would there be problems? :thumbsup: SWRules

More Bearings, and machine pulls to the left more without jackshaft. With less weight on throttle side, it will probably torque over to left when studded and on bare ice or grass. Harder to point and shoot in a drag race. Put a couple 5.5 lb.weights where exhaust exits, lol.

Planetary gears have been around since the caveman. (remember barney rubble??) Had gear timing on my 1976 international scout..couldn't break it.

They are reliable, provided they are made of metal. Some were made of nylon, and they could and did wear out. Cost to replace should be close to all the redo of the chain drive. Chain is good and reliable, but it doesn't like to handle high torque. Masive torque is why they changed, and I suspect the whole industry will move thada way sooner or later.

Once again, cat leads the way. EFI...major improvement over carb.

Notice all the so called new front suspensions that cat has had for several years? Doo, and yammers are just now gett'n em and pollers are just thinking about it. NO trailing arms good.....news....parts man....bad news.

Got to love those Minnesotians...they seem to not be afraid to go where the others tend to hesitate. Now if they would only make a four stroke mountain machine....I would be a cat man forever.

It will be interesting to see how the brake performs, it is directly mounted on driveshaft instead of jackshaft- approximately half the rotating speed.

Originally posted by konkinj@Mar 19 2003, 03:32 PM

But hey, that's progress and I give them credit for trying something new.
Thats right just trying something different. Different is good :)

that is what warrantee is for. specially for all the guinee pigs out there trying all this new tech. SWRules

The Diamond Drive is bullet proof.. It has been around for years and tested on numerous applications. It was originally built by Black Diamond but then sold to Cat 2/3 years ago.

The gear drive will take the weak point out of the chain case. Now if slippage is required it will be at the drivers/track or the belt..

Can't wait to get mine for my race sled..

yes i hope this works out a little better than most firecats this year,but i do think cat r&d'd the black diamond system a little more than the f-7.if i am correct they ran them in some of the sno-pro sleds the past couple of years. it should make the zr handle a little better with 90% or more being neaR THE BOTTOM OF THE SLED.anyways after it passes the big torx test of the 900,it should be the standard.

Originally posted by T_Cat@Mar 23 2003, 02:44 PM
The Diamond Drive is bullet proof.. It has been around for years and tested on numerous applications. It was originally built by Black Diamond but then sold to Cat 2/3 years ago.

The gear drive will take the weak point out of the chain case. Now if slippage is required it will be at the drivers/track or the belt..

Can't wait to get mine for my race sled..
Do you have any experience with the Black Diamond drive?

I'm trying to figure out how the sucker works!

You have an input shaft off the driven clutch, then a big gear which meshes with another big gear that has a smaller gear connected to the back side of it.

This smaller gear meshes with the five planetary gears that appear to be fixed in place...but then what?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

-Rob

Depending on the gear quality and type. Planetary gear systems are infamous for generating heat. (Stands to reason due to the increased amount of gear contact ) Also there will be NO give in the drive line system like the chain case. It might mean more broken belts. ( pure speculation ) Also if you do trash your gearing expect big $$$$.

On the bright side. Planetary systems can handle scads of horsepower for their size. As well making a reverse is as simple as locking or unlocking the sun. (Light weight - simple - no need to have fancy helixs and electronics )

As far the the weight balance issue. They had to REALLY beef up the brake assembly on the throttle side. so I think that balance will be a toss up.

Regearing will be a pain though depending on how the ring gear and sun system are configured.

My only beef is how much the price increased over last year and (IMO) the butt ugly graphics!

But I would overall trust the system myself. Like was said before planetaries have been aroung a long time IE POWERGLIDE trans. (and we know how durable they are!) But auto trans have a torque converter to soften any shock loading.

Ok, Gotta put in my two cents.
Just a couple things that I see that will be a plus to this system. When you had the chain case system and the chain broke, You didn't have any brakes anymore.
Now you will.
One less shaft that had bearings in it that are known for wearing out.
Definite plus there. Mine is going in the shop right now for possible bearing replacement.
The gyro aspect was a good point.
Lowered center of Gravity. Should be a definte plus.
If this case is bulletproof, then should be awsome. Just change some fluid and call it a day. No more chain tension to worry about. Should be a great new product. :D SWRules

From my experiance with planateries from Heavy Duty Equipment to the planetary box on my dirt track race car I see this being a big plus for drag racing. Less slop in the driveline, more power makes it to the track as well. Most of the weight loss is in rotating parts. You loose power trying to make these parts spin. Durability will be a question mark as well as servicability. It was usually easy for the average guy to make fast changes to the chaincase ratio for different riding situations. Now most people will just have to live with whats in it.

Cat has some great info on there web site on the Diamond Drive. And remember that they've been testing for two years on there own since buying the technology. Basicall they've eliminated alot of rototing mass, gained a better ballance as you have pipes going one side of the sled and the D-drive weight on the other to actually balance the sled better. Also the sled naturally torques to the right in the old confifuration. Now it is suppose to accelerate straighter with the way it's driven from the left side and the more even weight distribution.

I'm not a huge fan of AC and will disagree with a lot of what you guys say they started the trend on...., but I have to say they have a damn good thing going with the direct drive. Don't know why they haven't been used in all sleds. They wouldn't be any more expensive to make would they?!?! Simpler is better

the planetary drive system has been used on construction and farm equipment for years. the only problem i have ever had with planetary drives are the seals in them leaked so i took them apart and fixed.

So it is more like a gear drive to on a camshaft in a car?????

After the F7 I've lost a little faith in big green.I think i'll wait and see.First year on a production sled.I just keep thinking F7. :(

zr800,
what is wrong with an F7 ? i ride in yellow and i like the F7.

Originally posted by dooittoit@Apr 5 2003, 04:23 AM
but I have to say they have a damn good thing going with the direct drive
Lets get this straight once again. It is not direct drive. Direct drive would mean that the sec. clutch is attached directly to the drive axle. This is not the case. The clutch is connected to the planetary input. You still have a gear reduction.

Originally posted by rob7374+Apr 6 2003, 09:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rob7374 @ Apr 6 2003, 09:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--dooittoit@Apr 5 2003, 04:23 AM
but I have to say they have a damn good thing going with the direct drive
Lets get this straight once again. It is not direct drive. Direct drive would mean that the sec. clutch is attached directly to the drive axle. This is not the case. The clutch is connected to the planetary input. You still have a gear reduction. [/b][/quote]
Lets get this straight. Who cares! Would you rather we call it GEAR DRIVE. Geez! Drop it already.

Originally posted by LabradorBoy+Apr 2 2003, 09:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LabradorBoy @ Apr 2 2003, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--T_Cat@Mar 23 2003, 02:44 PM
The Diamond Drive is bullet proof..* It has been around for years and tested on numerous applications.* It was originally built by Black Diamond but then sold to Cat 2/3 years ago.*

The gear drive will take the weak point out of the chain case.* Now if slippage is required it will be at the drivers/track or the belt..*

Can&#39;t wait to get mine for my race sled..
Do you have any experience with the Black Diamond drive?

I&#39;m trying to figure out how the sucker works!

You have an input shaft off the driven clutch, then a big gear which meshes with another big gear that has a smaller gear connected to the back side of it.

This smaller gear meshes with the five planetary gears that appear to be fixed in place...but then what?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

-Rob [/b][/quote]
Has anybody had one of these in their hands?

Does anybody know the answers to the questions I posed above?

-Rob