Leave the groomers Parked , leave the trails stakes in storage and the signs with them for this coming season! Right now all ( except Quebec) Provincial and State Snowmobile Associations in North America are or will be soon in an insurance crisis. The liability rates have gone too high for the Associations to be able to pay. New Brunswick ,British Columbia and New York State have already experienced insurance problems and have had to stop all trail operations until they could secure a resolve to the problems. Here in Ontario the OFSC is tapped out trying to pay the insurance bill for this year...who's going to pay the bill next year ? ....You are ! The Ontario Provincial Government needs to make changes to the occupiers Liability Act as well as putting a cap on liability Claims towards the OFSC and it's Clubs. This same scenario I would assume is the same for other States and Provinces. I sometimes wonder who runs this organized snowmobiling in this Province ? The snowmobilers or the Insurance Companies ? Most of you have no idea of the paper work that is now involved in running a Club but I can tell you it gets worse every year and most of it is all directly related to Risk Management and keeping the insurance rates down. Being a member of a Club in Ontario has become a part time job much like being an MTO employee. More signs , more paper work more jobs that the volunteers have to do are not going to solve this problem......we need change and we need it at the Provincial level ! SHUT DOWN this Billion dollar a year business in this Province and watch them react in a hurry then .

You thoughts are welcomed :)

Man I hope this isn't going to be the case, is this for sure Indy? Any body wanna buy a sled! :cussing: :cussing:

I want to know where the sled manufacturers are in all this. I would think they realize that they're not going to sell sleds if they allow insurance companies to make them illegal to operate. :angry:

man this is a big issue, this is going to suck. ! :cussing: :cussing: I was planning to use the trails in a year or so as well. ???

This was featured on SnoTrax today, If they manage to find a way through this financial quagmire, the costs will be passed on to the sledder in higher trail passes. Not so bad by itself, but couple with personal insurance hikes that will rival your car's premium, and you will see people dropping out, or rogue riding without the paper work.

I never said it was a for sure thing but has been suggested at District levels and it wouldn't surprize me if it came up in other meetings later this year. Don't go selling your sleds or giving up just yet. I just want you opinions on this matter and possible solutions. A mass boycot is a very harsh step that non of us really want but something has to be done. I don't mind volunteering my time to make snowmobiling better for everyone but working for the insurance companies sucks !

Maybe I'll keep my sled then in a few years I can send it to Ripleys -believe-it-or-not archives section :D :D

Sledding is BIG business in most parts of Ontario.If organized sledding was to stop then the economy would greatly suffer in turn.Unfortunately no one in the government appears to give a damn because the writing is almost on the wall :(

The same thing happens time and time again, cash problems, just pass it on down the line to the little guy, they can pay for it :angry: It's simple, if insurance rates go up at the percentage they did last year you will again see a noticable drop in permit sales.People will just not be able to afford it and families with 2 or 3 machines just won't be able to doo it :(

Why can't they just change the laws? If I crash my truck on the 401 I can't sue the gov't for it, so why could I sue the OFSC for crashing on their trail system?? I have given insurance companies tens of thousands of dollars over the years and I have NEVER made a claim, I know I am not the only one like this. Something needs to be done as Northern Ontario communities rely on snowmobile income for survival.

Thats exactly what I was thinking Kim, how can any judge let this kinda thing go on? Man people sue everything and anybody these days!!! :cussing: :cussing:

Maine has good landowner liability laws (its where I ride) basically if you get hurt on someones property on a snowmobile the landowner is exempt from liability.

I don't know why people are such idiots. Like this year, i was on a derby, and i was flying down the trail pretty good in the bush and what do you know, i came across an unmarked 90 in the trail, well, i flew off the end, missed a 2 foot diameter tree by like 3 inches, and hadda crawl outta the bush through a bunch of brush. Some one else did it before me, and a guy who was riding about 10 miles behind me did it too. I could have sued if i ran that corner smack into that tree, but, i know i was going a little too fast, and i should have been watching more, but i know that if the guy behind me who ran that corner hit that tree, the club would have had to give up every thing they had because the guy is a real pecker head. He would have went after them for every thing, and the rates would have went up.

Originally posted by LadyK@Mar 30 2003, 12:01 PM
Why can't they just change the laws? Something needs to be done as Northern Ontario communities rely on snowmobile income for survival.
Exactly LadyK ! ...but do you realize how long it takes the Goverment to get off their butts and actually do something........years, by then snowmobiling in Ontario will either be dead or run by the MTO ! The Goverment knows there is a problem and have they done anything? NO ! Take out a Billion dollar a year industry and then see if we get any attension ! A boycott is a strong suggestion but something has to be done. The OFSC's insurance company already runs most of the programs of the OFSC...they have their hands in everything from signage to , paperwork, to policys , trail reporting...everything is a risk management thing to keep the insurance costs down and everything thing else the Goverment has thier hands in since Bill 101. This all shakes down to more work at the Club level and more work for volunteers!What ever happened to some dedicated volunteers marking and grooming some trails and having a good time throughout the winter riding?
I would feel deeply sorry for anyone that relies on snowmobiling as a winter income if this was to happen . We as supporters of organized snowmobiling need to get the message out that we have had enough ! I'm not saying to mass email the OFSC but someone in the Goverment needs to get things changed or this sport is dead !

The way the price of snowmobiling is kept at a reasonable rate is because it is spread across a large number of people. How many people like me who average way less than 1,000km per season are going to keep buying permits and insurance (in my case for multiple sleds) when the prices keep going up and up?

Then the cost is divided between fewer riders, which makes their cost even higher still. I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that I don't have bottomless pockets.

While we don't get a lot of miles on per season, our family group gets a lot of miles on per ride. Trailblazer has a 15yo son and I have a 14 yo daughter who LOVE to ride. My 12 yo son will be on his own sled this next coming season. It has become a great family excursion for all of us. I'm sure we're not the only ones to experience this. I know so many people who don't know what their teenagers are up to on a Saturday night, but ours are right by our sides, riding their guts out! :D

But if the price of insurance and permits continues to rise, I don't know how much more I can justify. As a single Mom, I'm trying to pay for 3 sleds for insurance, permits and gas and oil as well as parts and regular maintenance. This is of course on top of owning and maintaining a house and supporting my family. Can I continue to insure and buy permits for 3 sleds when we're only averaging less than 1,000km per year?

When I first got into this sport is seemed like a great family outing. It's starting to feel more like the great government cash vaccuum! ???

wow this doesn't sound good. maybe it's time to put a understandable waver clause in all registrations and trail permits. making operator responsible for control of their sled and following laws. just like our vehicles. ignorance is no excuse by law.

Man .. Sometimes I am so glad I live in Newfoundland. WE have two Cops that ride around on sleds and all they want you to do is have your sled registered. they even watch us water skipping. LOL Only thing is here is if someone crashes thgeir sled they never go looking for someone to blame it on. they just fix it and go.. not many law suites here.

Originally posted by Andy Dragon+Mar 30 2003, 11:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Andy Dragon @ Mar 30 2003, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Rocketman@Mar 30 2003, 11:29 AM
I want to know where the sled manufacturers are in all this. I would think they realize that they&#39;re not going to sell sleds if they allow insurance companies to make them illegal to operate. :angry:
Any money put forth by the manufacturers will come from one place - us. They will jack up the prices (even higher!) and we end up footing the bill. [/b][/quote]
Well I agree and disagree.

Obviously they will use revenue from sleds to accomplish anything. That&#39;s a given.

BUT...how much more can they jack the price up? Sleds are definitely becoming a toy for the rich.

What I see happening is a drastic decline in new sled sales if the prices go any higher. We will just have people hanging on to sleds longer instead of buying new every year. It doesn&#39;t make sense. Seems to me you would want to look after the people that give you money.

At least here in SK we don&#39;t have the insurance claims like other places. I don&#39;t think anyone has ever sued the Saskatchewan Snomobile Association..ever. BUT, thanks to the big numbers insurance companies in the east are getting away with, I&#39;m sure our insurance here will creep up to.

At least in Saskatchewan, you can ride with no insurance.

WOW

What a post

I have posted similar posts on this subject and most of the same people here jumped all over me :p

Hey SKS I guess it is my turn to agree with ya :)

Why don&#39;t ya post this on the other two sites we frequent and see how the natives respond

We should all thank IndySKS as he has been sorta the go between guy with the OFSC and us net sledders:)

here we can ride with out insureance (*I do*) but, i am registered and trail passed. I also have 200 000 liabilty which comes with my registration, just incase. My sled wouldn&#39;t be worth insureing because in the 3rd year of driving, i would pretty much have paid what i paid for the machine (next year is 3rd year for it with me) so i am pretty much just going to be riding for gas, oil, and maintanance. I think i am buying another machine next year though. :D

This is a crock of $hit if the is true im gonna be pissed :cussing: :hallo1:

The only true way to stop this bullsh$t is for every single person that ownes a sled sit out for a season and not ride. After they loose a few million dollars in just one season i think they might get the point.
But are you gonna be willing to park your sled for the winter?

Thanks for the info Indy, its time more people take responsibility for the choices they make in life and quit blaming others for their own stupidity.
I would think some sort of legislation where as it would be impossible to hold the OFSC or landowners accountable liability wise is what we need as common sense and being accountable for ones actions are things that have some how slipped away from our modern society.
Will it take shutting down the entire trail system next fall to get the governments attention..........likely, but I cetainly hope not. Are the insurance co&#39;s greedy and selve serving? Yes and no, its hard to blame them for raising premiums when they can prove (so they claim) that each and every year they&#39;re losing money insuring snowmobiles but their biggest reason for raising premiums is still based on their losses of 9/11. My biggest argument against them raising premiums, based on these supposed losses, is that during all the good years when record profits were the norm they certainly didn&#39;t drop my insurance premiums, did yours? I didn&#39;t think so.
The only ones that win with our current system is the dummies that hurt themselves and the lawyers that represent them.
I should also add, the scammers that most years manage to have a sled either stollen or written off (strange how it always happens late in the season or if they&#39;ve had lots of trouble with their sled) don&#39;t help our case any either. How many of you know of, or have knowledge of someone like that..........me to.
The fact that the manufacturers (escept for Ski-Doo) don&#39;t have any form of theft protection as factory or optional equipment doesn&#39;t help cut down on claims either. With thefts on the rise each and every year they don&#39;t seem to have any concerns, well lets see just how much their concerned when an entire market such as Ontario just closes down along with their dealers.
Their continued marketing towards the "gotta have it racer sleds" certainly doesn&#39;t help out either. Even most of the entry level sleds are far too powerfull for entry level riders, how about a graduated sled drivers lic? Go to some of the sled wreck auction sites and check out how many 1 / 2 / 300 miles sleds they have that are totalled, they seem to make up a huge portion of their overall offerings. New sleds with new riders totalled and likely hurt in the process.
Rick.

Well said Rick :)

But by shutting down or not sledding it is not the government nor insurance company being hurt financially unfortunately :(

It will be the dealer that has sled to sell to pay his shop expenses,his employees that get laid off

It will be the Ma and Pop places that might lose their livelyhood

It will be the Resorts having to lay off their workers due to no one being there and spending money

:cussing: What can we do without hurting our supporters????

A boycott is to dangerous. Once we all shut down, we cant be sure it will come back up. Besides it would be impossible. I for one would not sit out a season. The off season is hard enough and im sure there are more like me.

This is a problem that can only be fixed at the political level. The goverment does not need to get involved directly but laws need to be made to protect the ofsc from idiots that try to get rich from suing.

Another problem is the land owners. These guys can only take so much. A lot of them are non sledders that couldnt give a crap about the sport. There doing it for nothing. Damage, Noise, and chance of lawsuit are turning them bitter. The OFSC needs to find a way to give these guys some benifits. Or they will shut us down.

I think a total boycott for a season is the only way the government and insurance companies will change. Once the businesses and manufacturers start complaining that is when the government will starting listening. If we just complain and do nothing about the problem, we will just be hit harder financially every season. How much more can you afford to spend? We have three sleds to put on the trails, by the time we pay insurance, trail passes and gas them up for the first trip out, we have spent $2000.00 plus.
It is time we did something.

Maybe its time we made ourselves heard then. Here is the Premier&#39;s e-mail address and a copy of a letter I sent him. feel free to cut and paste it,sign it and send it along or write to him yourself and explain your concerns. We cant really expect to just come here and complain and have anything change can we?

http://www.premier.gov.on.ca/english/email/

Honourable Mr. Eves

I would like to draw to your attention the looming financial crisis in the sport of organized snowmobiling in Ontario. A one billion dollar industry is in peril of being lost if action is not taken immediately.

Insurance costs and their effects on the consumer.

Spiralling insurance costs are working on multiple fronts to drive the cost of snowmobile ownership and operation upwards at an incredible rate forcing many people to abandon the sport completely. These people represent the livelyhood of many Ontario businesses. When they leave the sport,they take away from the Ontario economy not just the money spent purchasing new vehicle product, but all the money spent on lodging, eating, fuel, repair services, accessory purchases, vehicle licencing, and of course, insurance premiums.Much of that money is spent in Northern Ontario communities Many of these businesses, their employees and families rely heavily on the sport of snowmobiling and will not survive the coming crisis. The average snowmobiler spends between two and ten thousand dollars annually to participate in the sport. For every person who descides they can no longer justify the ever rapidly increasing insurance costs, and trail permit costs, this province&#39;s economy suffers another blow.

Insurance costs and their direct effect on tourism.

The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs has been financially devastated buy skyrocketing insurance premium increases in just two short years. The possibility that it will no longer be financially viable to operate a snowmobile trail network in Ontario will have far reaching economic impact on tourism spending in Ontario. Not just out of province tourism but also the thousands of touring snowmobilers who frequent the numerous small businesses of Ontario.

Insurance costs and their effect on Snowmobile Trail Permit costs.

The O.F.S.C., in order to finance these huge insurance cost increases has been forced to raise the cost of a single snowmobile trail premit year after year until they have reached a point where many snowmobile owners can neither afford nor justify the cost of permitting one or multiple machines in order to continue to participate in this sport as a healthy outdoor winter activity to be enjoyed with the whole family.

Solutions for preventing this financial disaster.

The Ontario Government must implement changes in law to protect the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs, Ontario land owners and their insurers from lawsuits arrising from the use of the Ontario snowmobile trail system. Put in place legislation that would limit the settlement for claims made by individuals involved in accidents while engaged in the sport of snowmobiling. Institute a snowmobile operator licencing program and lobby snowmobile manufacturers to improve and anti theft devices to reduce the high rate of theft in Ontario.

Mr.Eves, I urge you to act on this problem now so we may avert the loomig crisis and protect the sport of organised snowmobiling in the province of Ontario.

and they want to legalize more brain numbing substances.

I know some of you will say that this is a stupid idea, but, what would happen if every one just boycotted insureance companies. You know, just get your local club to have signs saying ride at your own risk, pay the club strictly for the groomer and signs. They must how ever be sure to make all riders known that they are not carrying insurance and riding is their own risk. This way, you can still ride, and the people who depened on the sport will stay alive, or at least get by. REMEMBER, THEY CAN&#39;T STOP EVERY ONE FOR NO INSURANCE!








Can they??

I hope that something can be worked out. For the most part, wrecks are the rider faults and they should step up and take the blame and not try and pass the blame on. I agree with Machzzz1 that I couldnt sit out a whole winter without riding my sled. Some new laws have to be written and quickly!!!

Well done doonut ! I applaud your efforts , this sport needs more people like you that actually stand up and do something when they have a cause. I would also mention that you might want to keep the OFSC informed on your efforts letter and send them a copy of it.

I appreciate the comments from everyone here , it helps me to understand how my "net sledder" buds are thinking and helps me form my opinions to help out the entire cause.

One thing I did suggest at our last district meeting was if the permit price was going to go up make it well aware to the permit purchaser why the increase and how much of that permit dollars actually goes to the insurance compny&#39;s. Any increase will be going to the insurance company&#39;s and not the OFSC or the Clubs.

Permit price $ 110.00
OFSC insurance charge $ 50.00
---------------------------------------------------
total cost (before Dec 1) $ 160.00

Thats the way it should be printed on the permits...by the way those numbers are just for examples they are not actual. If the OFSC sells 100,000 permits a $10 increase would create $1million dollars. They scraped the barrel this year to pay the 3.2 million dollar insurance premium , and next year may hit 5 million...you do the math ! Increase of $20 ? , $25 ? $30 ? ....? Where does it end ?

Permit price $ 110.00
OFSC insurance charge $ 50.00
---------------------------------------------------
total cost (before Dec 1) $ 160.00

Thats the way it should be printed on the permits...by the way those numbers are just for examples they are not actual. If the OFSC sells 100,000 permits a $10 increase would create $1million dollars. They scraped the barrel this year to pay the 3.2 million dollar insurance premium , and next year may hit 5 million...you do the math ! Increase of $20 ? , $25 ? $30 ? ....? Where does it end ?

This is the first year in about 6 years that I bought a permit. I only bought one because I bought a new sled. Six of my friends that always buy permits didn&#39;t this year because of the cost.

The average sledder is going to look at that and say "I already pay $400 insurance! Why should I cover the OFSC"s rear?"

IMHO I think trail passes are already at the peak of affordability. Any increase will lead to loss of revenue for clubs.

Remember what Bob Rae&#39;s tax increase did to revenues in Ontario.

I don&#39;t have to buy a permit. My cottage has lots of private trails and lake running and there is always Georgian Bay.

DC

I used to keep an extra sled for my wife and kids to put 300 kms a year on.When permits went from 100 to 120 that was it.Sold the extra sled and now save 130 + 230 for Insurance.That was an expensive 300 KMS a year.
In Quebec when you buy your trail permit that includes your LIABILITY and you get a deduction on your personal INSURANCE.Maybe the OFSC should pull their heads out of the snow and look into that.(So what if the French had the idea first)
Also maybe if all Provinces ban together and have 1 permit for all and buy their INSURANCE from the same Company they could save a bundle and people would venture out of their own province more.(there is buying power in numbers)

Originally posted by doonut@Mar 30 2003, 08:16 PM
Here is the Premier&#39;s e-mail address and a copy of a letter I sent him. feel free to cut and paste it,sign it and send it along or write to him yourself and explain your concerns.
Done!

We have e-mailed the premier and sent our sledding friends a copy of our letter urging them to do so also.

Originally posted by doonut@Mar 30 2003, 08:16 PM
Maybe its time we made ourselves heard then. Here is the Premier&#39;s e-mail address and a copy of a letter I sent him. feel free to cut and paste it,sign it and send it along or write to him yourself and explain your concerns. We cant really expect to just come here and complain and have anything change can we?


Well Doout I emailed Mr.Eves as well. He is for sure getting sick of my emails regarding the snowmobile industries problems with insurance ;)

My OFSC club, Sunset Trail Riders, was closed this year already. We are in the far western part of Ontario, Kenora, and there was just too much crap going on to open the trails. The government was even taking our club to court for cutting deadfall and using it as firewood at our one warmup shack. I heard we won the case but their was a lot of other stuff also.

A lot of people sure missed the trail system this year, a lot of our trails are on the lake and if you don&#39;t know where your going you will get lost in the middle of Lake of the Woods.

The city of Kenora had zero tourism form snowmobilers this year, nobody knew how to get there!

What was the reaction from the powers to be in Kenora over the economic impact closing the trails had? Some towns here in Southern Ontario do everything in their power to chase sledders out of their towns and the surrounding area. What the local mayors are thinking is beyond me.
I don&#39;t know what the ultimate solution is but theres no doubt we need nothing short of a miracle to see trails open next season. Insurance is killing our sport??? Or is it more those that use insurance as a reason to throw caution to the wind?? Something to think about.
Hope it works out.
Lady K,
How&#39;d the insurance petition work out / final numbers? It sure seemed like precious few had a real interest in something that either has or will be affecting all of us. Its kind of a shame that more were not having insurance issues this season as it may have just got more of the masses off their butts to get involved.
Its going to take a huge push from everyone involved with snowmobiling to make a difference, from riders to sled vendors to local mayors, we gotta band together to make a difference and up to now its just not happening. Too bad that oh so many always think that others will do all the work on their behalf.
Rick.

Rick, the current # of sigs is 1928. But the petition still seems to be running? I have contacted petitononline.com about it and they have yet to respond to my email :( There aren&#39;t nearly enough signatures on this petition :( The laws must be changed or snowmobiling will become extinct. :( :(

if i light up a smoke i am second class, if i go hunting with my gun i am second class and if a ride my sled i am second class.

if i am gay i get all sorts of special privileges.

the minorities are running the world.

Let me get this straight. Your trail permit is your insurance coverage? If so, that&#39;s rediculous! I have a good record and have my sled insured on my car policy for $65.00/yr for full coverage including over $100K liability. If I wreck my sled, then my rates may go up. If I file too many claims, then my ins. co. drops me and I have to go elsewhere( fortunately I have never had that problem). I ride in Michigan and buy their permits for $25.00/yr. I am pretty sure if I hit something it is my fault and not Michigan&#39;s for letting me ride there. After all snowmobiles are off-road vehicles.
Insurance sould be sold to the snowmobiler individually. That way the insurer can decide if they want to even cover an owner that is a reckless driver or one that conveniently gets their sled stolen when they are tired of it.
A co-worker of mine pays $150/month for liability alone a a &#39;95 Dodge Neon with a four-banger that can&#39;t keep up with it&#39;s own shadow. But He&#39;s 20 yrs old with 2 DUIs and 3 speeding tickets. :withstupid: What comes around goes around.

Originally posted by paul yarek@Apr 1 2003, 07:55 PM
if i light up a smoke i am second class, if i go hunting with my gun i am second class and if a ride my sled i am second class.

if i am gay i get all sorts of special privileges.

the minorities are running the world.
You got that right Paul.
but somehow I just can&#39;t seem to bring myself to be gay. Perhaps if you changed your name to LadyPaul, it would help ;)

Unfortunately, a boycott would hurt alot of innocent people for the season. But, drastic times call for drastic measures. I would support it, as hard as it might be. Please make sure it a bad snow year :(

Sometimes, short term pain is worth the long term gain.

Maybe we should just all boycott insurance period. OFSC included. How many fines could they really give out in a year. We could all pool our insurance premiums into a fund, that would pay for our fines if caught.
Everyone sign a wavier, saying they understand its a ride at own risk, no liability trail system, and take your chances.

Yeah, it will never work, but its nice to dream.

I hate to be the one to burst your bubbles, Paul and Fishhog, but if you are a snowmobiler, you ARE a minority! :D

I also don&#39;t think a boycott of insurance would work, simply because even if everyone parked their sleds for a year (highly unlikely!) you would still want coverage for fire/theft. I don&#39;t think they would be covered under your house insurance, would they?

Also, I don&#39;t know that we would scare the insurance companies as they mostly don&#39;t seem to want our business anymore anyway! :angry: