www.pinecone.on.ca/MAGAZINE/stories/the-well-groomed trail. There is a Eco-Nazi in Muskoa by the name of Michael Enright who writes for The Country Connection Magazine....find some of this stuff and MAKE SURE YOU WRITE SOME LETTERS. Wankers like this need to be stoped. :cussing:

The Well Groomed Trail (http://www.pinecone.on.ca/MAGAZINE/stories/the-well-groomed-trail.html)

where the heck did this guy get his info :cussing:

We've been thru this discussion earlier this season Phil, you must have missed it.

Don't mean to rehash an old topic but how do these guys get away with writing such crap. As soon as stuff like this gets published, massive responses should go to large papers, highlighting such ignorance......
That's my beef for the day.... :angry:

I don't know what to say!! ??? maybe :0: and :angry: along with :cussing: guess I'll just send him :hallo1: !!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by PhiltyPhil@May 7 2003, 06:05 PM
There is a Eco-Nazi in Muskoa by the name of Michael Enright who writes for The Country Connection Magazine.
:nervous: Tell me this isn't the same Michael Enright who is employed by CBC radio.

when someone goes on like this that person usually has something hidden in the closet. should find out what it is and exploit it.

:D Maybe he sells FAG bearings!

wow, if i'm dumping that much gas on the ground i'm going to put a catch bucket on my exhaust and put back in the tank. should almost double my mpg lol where did he get those figures. just can't believe that.

thumbdoc,
like do you mean a butt-pirate ?

I sent an E-mail to Pinecone. I let him know his hate is the reason behind his distorted numbers. If the numbers were true, the trails would be BLACK, not white. Those numbers sound as though they came from 1972, not 2003. Hope the whole forum floods Pinecone with rebuttals.

Man I wish my sled got 250 k to the tank. That's incredible. I too am going to put a bucket under the pipe to catch the gas. Think of the money I'll save.
This guy needs to be taken out behind the barn and beaten.
Have a nice day :D

Does anybody know if this kind of "antianything" goes on in regards to boats and personnal watercraft to the extent that it does for snowmobiles?

Snow-Drift

Originally posted by Thumbdoctor@May 7 2003, 09:01 PM
:D Maybe he sells FAG bearings!
Good one doc :D
First time I've read the arcticle. Yipes. Can only imagine the hatred of the author towards snowmobiliers. Would be interesting to see what kind of a fruit-cake this guy really is. :p

Originally posted by paul yarek@May 7 2003, 09:24 PM
thumbdoc,
like do you mean a butt-pirate ?
Or a Turd burgular :D

Originally posted by tunedbyear@May 7 2003, 09:04 PM
wow, if i'm dumping that much gas on the ground i'm going to put a catch bucket on my exhaust and put back in the tank. should almost double my mpg lol where did he get those figures. just can't believe that.
No kidding 25-40 percent of all the fuel. some out of 11gallons roughly 3-gallons just pour right out onto the trail? I wonder if this guy ever flys anywhere? 747 jetliner burns 600 and some gallons of fuel per foot at take off. Tell me that doesn't pollute. Nobody complaining there.

He aint not fruitcake as that would make him sweet, he's more like day old spam left out in the sun to bake!!!

Where the hell did this guy get his 16% bull$hit dumping on the trails?? Hey you guys from canada where is mukuska? I feal bad you guys got some jacka$$ like that living around you! This guys got me wild!! And I'am at work steaming right know? I'am curious where you get statistics like that the crack pipe?? :cussing: :cussing: :devil: :devil:

Originally posted by Snow-Drift@May 8 2003, 02:50 AM
Does anybody know if this kind of "antianything" goes on in regards to boats and personnal watercraft to the extent that it does for snowmobiles?

Snow-Drift
Yes it does. The Blue Ribbon Coalition is also fighting a ban against PWC in lakes located in National Parks.

I would suggest that the name calling be curbed. If the people we deride find this site and see it, we look worse than before. We need to come off level and mature if we can. Ripping on a fellow sledder is not the same, it's expected. Ripping an enviro-man in print is not so cool for our cause.... :(

This guy also rants about Personal watercraft and his article on PWC, at least the figures got into our cottage ownners assoc magazine. The one study he uses was done in 1973 on small lawn mower engines. Ya no reed valves no scavening exhaust, 16 to one motor oil etc. If you go back to that mag link the PWC article by him is there as well, among other outright lies he states as facts, is that 2 - strokes have not changed since the 40's. I did not know this was brought up before. I fired several e-mails off to the author of our cottage assoc and got him st in a hurry, also sent one to my mp...this mag gets funds from the govt..!!!! I do not even own a PWC but I have seen this #### ridding dirt bikes for over 35 years....I hate these jerks. God is of course on their side so anything they say or do is ok.
My muskoka area phone book has two M.Enright's.....wonder if I should call and have a chat...?...oh this is not the CBC guy

After he rights that he will hop in his SUV to get his gardening supplies. :sly: How can we write to him?

Originally posted by polcat500@May 9 2003, 11:50 AM
After he rights that he will hop in his SUV to get his gardening supplies. :sly:* How can we write to him?
Second post in this thread.The well groomed trail. You will have to speak through Pinecone's E- mail"Contact us " section. PS., be sure to let him know how using the term "HATE" really lets the reader know he is only trying to deamonize snowmobiles. That word really boxes a journalist in ya know? Be sure your remarks are level headed.....Oldtimer F-7

Hello. I'm an engineer working on cleaner 2-strokes, from weed-wackers to snowmobiles. There seems to be quite an uproar about this article. The author certainly has an anti-sled bias, and he gets annoying with the redundant visualizations of gas pumping, swimming-pool filling, ad nauseum. He repeatedly refers to gas and oil to conjure up the negative picture of gooey black motor oil. The truth is that 2-stroke lubricating oil is an insignificant source of pollution--it's less than 2 percent of the fuel/oil mixture going through the engine.

Then there's the hydrocarbon (HC) emissions that Enright beats to death. I don't know anything about the total number of snowmobilers, or how far they ride in a season, but he does claim that every sled dumps 22 gallons of gasoline on the trails every year. There should be some hard data available to support or dispute that number.

A good place to start is the Society of Automotive Engineers paper number 982017 (Sept. 1998), "Development and Validation of a Snowmobile Engine Emission Test Procedure", by Christopher Wright of Arctic Cat and Jeff White of the Southwest Research Institute. This study was launched by ISMA and all four major snowmobile manufacturers conducted testing on the same two engines. The cleaner of the two engines is a Ski-Doo (Rotax) 503cc fan-cooled twin cylinder with dual carburetors. The engine was tested by the manufacturers in six different laboratories, and the results revealed an average HC emission rate of 140 gram per kilowatt-hour (g/kW-hr) with a max power of 40 kW (54 hp). This is based on a five-point test cycle--the emissions are measured at WOT, idle, and three part-throttle conditions. A multiplier is applied to the output at each point to simulate typical outdoor operation--12% at WOT, 5% at idle, and 27, 25, and 31% at the three part-throttle points. These weighing factors were determined by instrumenting a number of sleds and turning people loose to ride like they usually do. A statistical analysis of all this data (speed, throttle opening, etc..) crunched it into a manageable 5-point simulation of real-world operation. This 5-point test cycle, as proposed by the snowmobile industry, was accepted without modification by the US EPA.

So to get total HC emissions you multiply the brake-specific rate times power and time. The power is a fraction (0.337) of the maximum output--this reflects the power at the 3 off-peak points and the weighing factors. 40 kW x .337 = 13.5 kW (18 hp).
140 g/kW-hr x 13.5 kW = 1900 g/hr
A liter of Winter-blend premium weighs approximately 780 grams, so the sled is putting out
1900 g/hr x 1 liter/780 g = 2.4 liter/hr = 0.64 gal/hr.
At a rate of over half a gallon an hour it would take less than 35 hours of riding to dump 22 gallons of unburned gasoline on the trails. Is 35 hours representative of a season's worth of sledding? You tell me.

The 5-point cycle underestimates real-world emissions because it doesn't consider transient operation (acceleration and deceleration) or engine warm-up. If you're riding a 100+ hp machine you're dumping over a gallon an hour out the exhaust. It's not dripping out as a liquid because it leaves the pipe as a hot mixture of air, CO2, CO, NOx, and invisible fuel vapor. The fuel vapor quickly condenses when it hits the cold air, just like when you see your breath on a cold day. When you see visible smoke, it is NOT lube oil, it's a cloud of liquid gasoline. Why would it color the trail black? 50-1 premix is not black, is it?

I'm not a greenie--I just had a 1988 140hp outboard rebuilt so I can dump fuel in the Gulf of Mexico for another 10 years. I deal with real hardware and real numbers--and see that both sides employ ignorance, exaggeration, and manipulation in their arguments. Can you imagine what a regulator would think by reading this thread? Ignorance, denial, and death threats are not a very strong platform from which to negotiate.

Intresting reply, so I went and had a look at the report,I can't post it, might be to big, do a google search of Christopher Wright and you will find it. Mind you these are engines from 1994 and 1995, and the report states " it must be emphasized that a sample of two engines is not sufficent to characterize current avaliable snowmobile engines". New stuff is much better. Other thing is that all the math in your reply Dirk seems not to be needed, or warrented. If you look at table 10 in the report the total HC emissions are there for you.The mean average HCg/kw-hr is stated as 103.2. Thats with a coefficent of variation...(COV) of only 1.1% Thats not the 1900 you come up with.
Other thing is that nowhere in the report does it give you the conversions to unburned gasoline. Where does this come from? Sent an e-mail to one of the authors of the report. Dirk I reckon you better go back and look at your extrapolations again. Maybe call Jeff White, his phone # is 210-522-2649 at Southwest Research Institute.....cheers.....phil

Thanks for locating the paper and reading it.

<<If you look at table 10 in the report the total HC emissions are there for you.The mean average HCg/kw-hr is stated as 103.2. >>

Table 10 shows the results of 9 different runs at WOT to demonstrate the repeatability of the Ski-Doo laboratory. The number you quote is not total emissions, it&#39;s total emissions per kilowatt. If the engine was making 1kW (1.3 hp), the total HC emissions would be 103.2 grams per hour. This engine is making 41kW, so the total emissions are 4,230 g/hr. The 1900 g/hr I used is based on the weighted average of the 5 point test cycle--only 12% of the WOT emissions are included.

<<New stuff is much better.>>

4-strokes are much better. DI 2-strokes would be much better, but as far as I know none are on the market. Semi-direct is better, but not great. EFI is incrementally better in transient operation. These numbers are still accurate for carbureted 2-strokes on the market today.

<<Other thing is that nowhere in the report does it give you the conversions to unburned gasoline.>>

HC is unburned gasoline. Gram is mass (weight). 780gram/liter comes from the Bosch Automotive Handbook. It&#39;s the same as 1.7 lb/liter or 6.5 lb/gallon.

As I said before you should call Jeff White. The real Dirk Pitt....sic.....is a fictional character created by Clive Cussler. I suspect there is some fiction involved here as well. Why was your reply in less than an hour and a half....?watching this are we..? why botther..?Oh by the way nice profile....lots of info there. Oh by the way all the manufactures offer the sleds you did not know were on the market. Especially Artic Cat, who Chris works for. Another point both the authors are judges on the panel for the ASE clean sled challange every year. Oh on top of that.....YOUR WRONG, and you don&#39;t have to have a degree to read the report and see that....bye the way I do.....cheers

Originally posted by 97cougar@May 8 2003, 07:46 AM
Where the hell did this guy get his 16% bull$hit dumping on the trails?? Hey you guys from canada where is mukuska? I feal bad you guys got some jacka$$ like that living around you! Here in Maine we would haul him into the allagash 250 miles from nowhere and show him some pollution from the muzzle loader!! This guys got me wild!! And I&#39;am at work steaming right know? I&#39;am curious where you get statistics like that the crack pipe?? :cussing:* :cussing:* :devil:* :devil:
97couger.

Muskoka is a playground for the RICH. It has some of the best lakes, Rivers, Forests, and is simply breathtaking anytime of the year. Snowmobiling is a very popular sport there and some would say it is the heart of snowmobiling in Ontario.

There are a lot of celeberties that have a cottage or home in Muskoka, Three that I know of are Kurt Russle and his wife goldie hawn, also Shania Twain. There are more I just cant think of them off hand. Muskoka is the area that has the cities Huntsville, Bracebridge, Gavenhurst and is the home of the Deerhurst Resort (Canadas Top resort).

It is about 2 hours north of Toronto which makes it very appeling for People from Toronto to Cottage there.

Hope that helps.



Now about this Idiot. I think we have a problem. This guy is very well spoken and he is using the internet as a tool to help win support. His web site accually looks very professional and if hes running around muskoka preaching this crap the locals who dont ride will cry out in fear ruining there prize winning land.

I think all of us on this site know that older snowmobiles were horible on polution and even the newer ones arnt somthing to be bragging about. However this man is using facts from the 70s, and simply lying to the public. Who would know better, Him on his computer, Or us accually riding the machines. I think we need to bombard his email with polite letters letting him know that his information is false along with his grim outcome for the future considering that the newer sleds comming out are going to be either 4 stroke or 2 stroke with some forum of injection. These engines will run cleaner and more efficent than any snowmobile engine ever has. Also he needs to realize that 2 stroke technology has come such a long way that its possible in the next few years to see engines that are more efficent that hybrid cars.

dirkpitt and Philtyphil: I dont know what the hell you guys are arguing about. LOL. But it sounds like you guys have some numbers or info that proves Mr. Muskoka wrong. Can you please sort all that out and give us some hard numbers to use against this guy.

Common people. Lets bring him to his knees begging to be aloud to erase his computer. We have to teach these idiot writers that are looking for attention that starting a war on snowmobiles, SUVs, or anything that uses gas will only cause greif.

Sorry Dirk I just spoke with one of the authors of the report. Your math is ok, at least the total of 1900g/hr. and the 780g for gasoline is ok, and the fuel rate as well. He is not happy with what you do after that, he feels the fuel vapor really does not condense quickly and is not happy with calling the emissions an unburnt cloud of liquid gasoline. It is more accurtely the mix of CO2 CO NOx etc, and disperses as such. Thats how they measure the effects at trail side. And the author also pointed out that the new regs are much tougher and the new engines they were producing are much cleaner. Still I&#39;m going to have some crow for lunch. Even though the author and I both agree we don&#39;t think you really are Dirk Pitt........cheers

Good post machzzz and thanks for the geography lesson I was trying to find it the other day on a map and I was lost.Thanks again!! did not know it was the place for the lifestyle of the rich and famous.Because if the people with money start believing some guy with facts from when I was born.This could be a struggle! Money talks and bull$hit walks in Most Country&#39;s.Your right lets bombard this guy!!

Originally posted by 97cougar@May 14 2003, 11:51 AM
Good post machzzz and thanks for the geography lesson I was trying to find it the other day on a map and I was lost.Thanks again!! did not know it was the place for the lifestyle of the rich and famous.Because if the people with money start believing some guy with facts from when I was born.This could be a struggle! Money talks and bull$hit walks in Most Country&#39;s.Your right lets bombard this guy!!
Your absoultly right, if we lost muskoka or were no longer welcomed buy the people there it would be a huge loss for the sledders of ontario. Everyone on this site needs to take a sled trip to muskoka once just to see it. All the lakes and senery make it just awsome.

I do feel that most people in muskoka dont hate sleds, But if they start to belive the crap that guy wrote they may start to change there minds. All we need to do is make everyone realize he is using false facts.

Just remember we cant let people like this or anyone against us gain an inch.

Thanks for going to the trouble to check out the facts, Phil. I admit my expertise ends at the tailpipe, and "quickly condenses" was a poor choice of words. I do not know how much HC condenses and how much stays as a vapor. I do stand by my statement that visible smoke is mostly a cloud of liquid gasoline, but I recognize that the bulk of the HC emissions are not visible. In my original post please change any reference to "dumps on the trail" to "leaves the exhaust pipe."

Again speaking outside my expertise, it seems that unburned fuel that stays as a vapor and dissipates into the air (especially in an unpopulated area) is no more harmful than auto emissions. Only the part that actually condenses and drops into the snow can be to blame for post-thaw water pollution.

So, to summarize: the numbers quoted in the Enright article for total unburned fuel emitted by snowmobiles are in the ballpark, but to imply that all of this fuel ends up on the trail is a major error. Hammer the author on this point.

As far as the new US EPA regulations, they don&#39;t go into effect until the 2006 model year, but manufacturers get credit for selling cleaner sleds early, so they will. By 2010 their entire fleet average HC emission can&#39;t exceed 75 g/kW-hr. The sled described in my first post can put out 1000g/hr at this standard. Some would think this is still a lot of HC emissions.

I do believe that when you cut the total unburned fuel by half you still mix it with the same amount of hot gasses in the exhaust, so it is likely that much more will stay as a vapor in the air. If my comment that the condensed fuel is much worse than the dispersed vapor is true, then the new regulations will significantly reduce damage to the environment.

My earlier post about new technology stated only that Direct-Injected (DI) 2-stroke snowmobiles are not yet on the market. If there is a DI sled for sale I would be very interested in hearing about it.

Finally, one can read all the posts in this thread and understand that I will remain anonymous because of the threats of harassment and violence against the author of the Pinecone article.

Mach z asked what "dirk" I I were argueing about? Boils down to do you want the right to ride your sled or not? Lots of hard core enviro&#39;s use stats and figures very well so you always have to ask to see them and then do some work yourself. Both reports used by Enright and "Dirk"....don&#39;t ya think it a bit funny some one from Fla is taulking about post thaw water pollution?... Are findable on the web. Also findable on the web are the e-mail and phone numbers of the authors. As one of the authors I took the time to speak to....only took a few mins..stated the basic facts that mr muskoa use are correct...but he takes them and sensationlizes and slants them, as they say he has his own agenda. Thats to stop you riding sleds.You know 20 to 25 % on the fan twin doo does not completly combust, more like sort of unburnt, it is not raw fuel but has been heated and cracked...like when they refine petrolium, so its back to HC, CO2 CO NOx also a bit of benzine and tolui ne and some other...got that from one of the reports authors. So it is not as portrayed by "mr muskoa" he uses that to shock people so they will not sit on the fence but join him in stopping sledding and PWC&#39;s and probably throw in off-road bikes and atv&#39;s. A lot of what comes out is there in nature anyway, but make no mistake we are emitting stuff, along with every power boater and grasscutter.

How do we keep the right to ride? Everytime you see an article like this you take the time to read it then make them prove any over the top claims. You take the time to check the reports, figures, whatever and take the time to see where they came from....a special interest group..? I would like to see a spot of this forum where anti-sled stuff could be posted, we could read it and take the time to reply to the paper or wharever ,in a calm and polite manner. F7 had it right you must try and make the general public see you are not a crazied animal bent on destroying the enviroment. Instead of making really rude comments here get off your butt take some of your own time and fight back. "Dirks" post was on this board for 5 days and no one replied to it I cruised by saw it thought it smelled a bit did&#39;nt anyone else? Did you notice he replied back in just over an hour. They were watching it, who&#39;s they? who do you think "Dirk" is? from Fla? he even comes up with the same 22 gals as Enright. No one in Fla would rebuild a 15 year old outboard thar had been in salt water all that time. I know bugger all bout putters I&#39;m a hunt and peck typer, but as soon as Pinecone Press and Enrights name appear on this board Dirk pops up. Would not suprize me if they have programs searching the great blue unknown keeping an eye on what is being said about them. Paranoid..? maybe but I would like to keep ridding, I have raced dirt bikes for 35 years talk about greenies hateing you.

What else can we do? everytime you ride you are an ambassidor for your sport...ell with spell check...Don&#39;t act like a jerk and don&#39;t give these people ammunition to use against you. Do you know what these people think when they stop a a reaturant and a row of sleds are out front with guys in side with a row of beers on the table. How bout when you blast by them on the road with your tuned pipes just singing? I have seen it as I said before with dirt bikes we are ar own worst enemy at times. To fight back is going to take some work and effort they are a lot more organized than you and if they care more than you, ya better watch out. We have to police ourselves a bit more.AND WE HAVE TO GET OFF OR BUTTS AND FIGHT BACK. What do ya reckon..??....cheers....Phil

Sorry for the bad sentence structure and spelling but as a hunt and peck typer it took me over an hour just to type this. You get mt ideas though......cheers.....Phil

What&#39;s that bumpersticker saying? "You&#39;re not paranoid, everyone really is out to get you?" I made my first post, came into work the next morning and checked for comments. There was one, I replied. Why are you surprised by the hour and a half lag? You know, there&#39;s a feature that tracks a thread a sends you an e-mail if there&#39;s a new post. I didn&#39;t even use it because the e-mail would go to the yahoo account that I set up to remain anonymous, and I don&#39;t bother checking that mailbox.

If you re-read my first post, I didn&#39;t "come up" with 22 gallons--I worked backwards to find how long you would have to ride a sled to expel a mass of hydrocarbon equal to the weight of 22 gallons of gasoline. The number I came up with is 35 hours of riding, and I asked if this is reasonable. It sounds reasonable, but I really don&#39;t know.

Well Dirk it is a little suspisious how your only 4 posts were on this topic, and how you are not willing to give us any background info on you. Your talking about a lot of stats and numbers which most of us cant understand.

Either way, Mr. Muskoka is going down. I dare him to press this any farther. Lucky for him hes a writer, so he better come up with a damm good apology.

You see, This happens to be a free country we live in. And personally in the last 20 years or so, the Goverment seems to have put laws and regulations on everything from guns to sleds. I can see guns need to be controled in citys like Toronto, But what about 99% of the rest of the country that still lives in the bush. Im so sick and tired of people going on crusades against easy targets like snowmobiles just to get attention.

I may not understand the numbers that you and Phil are debating, Hell I dont even really know whos side your on, You comming pretty damm close to making me belive your Mr. Muskoka himself.

But lastly the numbers that he was talking about in his arctical are irelivant. Newer sleds will not have these problems. SDI and DI are a reality that is NOW. And that stratified combustion chamber 2 stroke or (E-Tech) is suppost to be the cleanest engine ever built and its just a matter of time to getting this in sleds, Watercrafts, etc.

There is no other industry that is trying to clean up as fast as the recreation industrie. So what that knowledge on our side, Plus the fact that Mr. Muskoka is Bending his facts and playing them to death puts all the cards in our hands. He makes it sound like wildlife that walks by the trails start drinking from the gas pools left all over the trail.

If he thinks he can write. He better watch out. Becasue if I start to aim my Keyboard at him along with 100 other educated sledders hill sell his computer and become a trail maintance man for the OFSC.

Why does the sledding public get dumped on so harshly [when like someone mentioned on a earlier post] the amount of pollutants the airlines puts out goes unregulated?The pecentage of pollution sleds create compared to jets taking off year round every minute of the day around the globe would be impossible to equate. Still everyone should be held accountable to do their part so there is a future to do what you like to! ??? ???

Might have something to do with money. Airlines have political action committees and advertise in wordly journals like the Pinecone? Can&#39;t bite the hand that feeds you. Us sledders don&#39;t have a real organized voice to fight off vicious unprovoked attacks.

Bottom line is, snowmobiles are only an infinitesmil (sp?) part of the pollution we put in the air each day. What about power production companies, factories, etc? These guys go for the people that don&#39;t have a way to fight back. :blahblah: