Isn't it sad that Redline still continues to lie about being a sled maker yet they have nothing built :p :p :sleeping:

[COLOR=blue]GEM Won't Assemble Redlines :doh:

Snowmobile News
Wednesday August 6, 2003


Just six days into a negotiation extenstion, Redline Performance Products Inc. and Global Electric Motorcars (GEM) have terminated talks on an assembly contract.

Redline and GEM were attempting to come to an agreement on an assembly contract, where the Fargo, North Dakota-based GEM would produce the 800 Revolt snowmobile.

Earlier this week, GEM layed off 100 of its 185 workers due to a slow electric car market. Reports had stated that the company may hire people back to do snowmobile assmebly, though the lay-offs were classified as permanent.

As for the snowmobile contract, the parties were "unable to come to terms on key issues regarding a definitive contract assembly agreement," according to a Redline statement.

"We are actively engaged in conversations with outher companies that have the capabilities to assemble our 800 Revolt snowmobile," :sleeping: said Mark Payne, president and CFO of Redline. He said that the company will reach a decision in the next 60 days, and that the company does have the basic infrastructure to assemble the machines at its Vista, California, offices.[/blue]

See I told you guys Redline is a farce and it seems that they continue to falter :sly:

Nice sleds though.. Just believe it when I see it at a dealer I guess. Until then, just count them out of the mix.

i have yet to see any Redline revolt sign, posters...etc any advertisments at all in our local dealerships. untill then i wont consider them a major manufacture.

60 days before a assembly is negotiated ? then 60 days to set up and 30 days shipping. middle of january before any hit the floor from a makeshift assembly plant. they can't even get quantity control under control why would they even try quality control. i feel for the guy that drunkenly steps up to the dealer and buys one of these plagued to be sleds.

if a guy buys a sled drunk, i would have a hard time fealling sorry for him. would be actually pretty funny wouldnt it. :p

Maybe they should quit while they're ahead.

i am dissapointed, i was realy hoping they would have
something to enter the market with.
i hope they can still pull it off.

DRUNKEN: in the state of mental numbness especially as resulting from shock.

the word doesn't always mean influenced with alcohol. although 99 out of the other 100 definitions says so. LOL

With the managment that Redline has gone with, I am sure they have spent a large amount of time making such a decision. As i recall, the last press release stated that they had NOT made and commitment.

I have spent a large amount of time in discussion with many from Redline for projects on the site, and they have a large commitment to make the market (and are legally bound to do so, with the their IPO)

Ya but they were suppose to release a sled in 99

Hell they won a "Popular Mechanics Award" in 99 for sled design :sarcasm:

But this is 5 yrs later and they still have nothing to show ;)

I doubt they can keep up this charade.

What happened to the 594 Patriot fourcycle?? The Rebelion SX 602?702?802? or the Detuned 1300cc triple from a helicopter :doh:

I know they were "screwed "by the WSA yet they announced and had a deal with CSRA to race em in 2000,but they had nothing to show :doh:

Now even with only one model they still can't build them,how can anyone trust reliabilty??

I have been trying to keep close to them but gave up 2yrs ago

Maybe it's a tax scam.

Ya that's it .It was all a tax scam.Does anyone else have any conspiracy theories?Let's see what we can come up with. :)

I know for a fact that the majoraty of the vendors have been decided on the major components such as the engines, electronics, shocks, etc..... allong with many of the machined components. I know who the majoraty of them are, but can't tell till Redline releases the information publicly.

I was the one who did the article on the front page, and given a chance to look at the machine in person you can see it is not a prototype. All the details down to the zink coating the brackets, rounded radiuses on the machined parts, etc.. all point towards allot of cash spent on tooling. If Redline had intensions on scaming money, why would they though money out the window on such expensive tooling? Many don't realize the 10s of thousands of dollars it costs to make the dies for such things as brackets, etc... Much less sending them for cadium or Zinc plating.

Their prjections in their IPO show growth. Tooling costs etc.. for one sled is majorly expensive, much less for several. Redline has to start with one machine then move towards other models after success with the first. The ReVolt is going to be their first machine. Once it does make it, (they will have production this year) the ReVolt will be best in class. Yes it will be the most expensive, but if the engine puts out the power and performance, there is no reason it wont. The suspension is above and beyond that of what the big 4 are using, and I for one am tired of buying machines built the same way they were 20+ years ago.

everything is picked ready to go and on track.

all the suppliers want is the colour of the green.

talk is cheap money buys whisky.

same basic problem with a lot of dreamers.

Just to get this straight

I never said they are scamming people for $$$$ :sly:

I just think they have failed in becoming a sled maker and should stop taunting people with dreamsleds,they had their chance in 99 but failed miserably

quote
"
The suspension is above and beyond that of what the big 4 are using"

Come on I know you did the article and did a great job,but to say the statement above is kinda baseless do to fact you have not ridden one,right ???

It is one of those things that you have to see,touch and try :sly:
:doh:

Come on I know you did the article and did a great job,but to say the statement above is kinda baseless do to fact you have not ridden one,right*

It is one of those things that you have to see,touch and try*


Well, nobody has said the we havn't had the oppertunity to ride the ReVolt either. Let's just say there is more to come.

As far as the suspension goes. I am 5'10". I can lift the rear bumper on the ReVolt armpit high and the track is still on the ground. Last I knew, there is no other sled that can do that.

There has been absolutely no failure at all. Redline has aquired some major buissnes people and other aqusistions in the last couple of months and have been on a slow rampup. The downturn in the economy 2 years ago didn't help either. I must asked, have we all looked at the perspectus for Redline? The actual documentation as to how they are financial bound? With the increase of growth and funds to work with, I see it as a sign of good things that they are not going to build till they are ready to. The last thing they want is to build something they are not able to support etc...

I think it is very unfair and unjust to put them on trial for not bringing it to market. It is just recently where they have been in a position to do such a thing.

I mean, Henry Ford didnt invent the Model A and started selling it 6 months later. It took time. And he made himself a millionare by selling only one model of car, with no options, in only one color.


I must remind, that there is no bashing on these forums. Iregardless if it is aimed at other sleders, manufacturers etc.....

Henry used Dodge parts to start up Ford BTW :sly:

Did you ride the sled or what??

I see what you mean about the rear suspension as its pivot poit is way out in the middle of the sled,but that still does not mean it will ride better



Is the sled suspension a high speedtrail cruiser or a hardcore ditchbanger

They have a max of 5 sleds out there and they are all protos

They are protos as they have not been mass produced and checked for Q&A,which goes along way

Freezerburnt - All I can say is if they are building sleds like that with no quality controll, then the big 4 will have a rude awakening. The sled looks like a Ducati motorcycle, or a Ferarri up close. No detail untouched.

16" of travel and no loss of speed as the travel goes up.

And their are more than 5 sleds, trust me.

At this time, it can not be discussed until the IPO freeze is off.

As of when I went to see the Revolt, the only thing on that sled that was not production was the hood and side pods.They will look identical, but they are switching manufacturing processes. Please, if we don't know dont bash.

Freezer B. I'm with you....... like others I've been patient with Redline, it does take time to bring these things on line, but were years in to this thing and no production...... last year I quit wasting my time on them, when I got to their booth at the major shows I just kept right on walking... nothing new to see or hear, (at least that can be backed up anyway)........ Said another way it's a joke!!

And while they may not be skimming dollars from the public, it does appear that it (the snowmobile division) could be working as a tax right off (shelter) for some of their other business ventures...... If their doing this.. Uncle Sam is going to tell them to "put up or shut up pretty soon"!

I hope they go away, and come back when they really are ready to go..... their loosing a lot of credibility playing cat and mouse games with the buying public. If it takes this long to get a sled, what do you think it's going to take to get a critical replacement part if you need one?

There a joke and embarassment to the sport, and their actions indicate poor leadership in their management dept. Buyer be ware!........DooZ..... ;)

Originally posted by 800MXZ@Aug 15 2003, 06:56 PM
The sled looks like a Ducati motorcycle, or a Ferarri up close. No detail untouched.

Please, if we don't know dont bash.
For the Ducati and Ferrari comment

Those are very HIGH MAINTENANCE

Are you saying it will be a high maintenance sled and it could take months to get replacement parts???

The 2nd comment

If we don't know don't PRAISE or HYPE the unknown :sly:

They have at least updated their web site. I'm starting to doubt whether they will ever go into production, but I would bet that if they do, they will ride like nothing out there. All of the force from bumps is being forced forward into the center of the chassis, instead of straight up into the rider. I still don't see where they are going to put an adequate gas tank, or an adequate snowflap, but all in all, I would say it looks like a very impressive design, that will most likely make the Big 4 look silly, if it is actually ever built.

Redline (http://www.redlinesnowmobiles.com/)

If we don't know don't PRAISE or HYPE the unknown


As I have said before, we can't release full details. Redline is legally bound not to release many of the details until the closure of their IPO. Remember John DeLorian, that is what got him in trouble with his car company.

I just do not see why there is such a vandetta against a group of people that are tryingt to think outside the box.

Ducati, high maintenance? Well, the are praised as building incredable works of machinery, with the best technology.

Dpaige, how dependable is your Ducati?

Hypothetically:

You have engineered a product and decide to attempt to bring it into an already esatblished (and technologically advanced) market. The incumbant players are already very successful, and have established large-volume operations with a solid user base. You are a small, unknown company.

How much leeway do you have in terms of cash flow should a setback arise? You need to make your product more appealing than the others so that people will even remotely consider if over their favorite brand name. That being said, how thin is the line you walk in terms of product performance and reliability? Lets face it...your product has to be darn near flawless to break you in to the market.

Redline has already thrown their hat into the ring by going public. There is no sense getting impatient and putting the tighty whities in a knot because they have suffered a few setbacks. Unless the fact that they are taking their time to release a very good product is costing you money or causing you some detrement to riding the sled you already OWN, who cares? The longer they take to get their product out, the longer they have to wait to get a chance at your cash. Plain and simple. I don't think they would delay on purpose, just to spite the sledding public. :doh:

Freezerburnt, do you own or have you ever even sat on any ducati??

I have a significant amount of experience with them, and I can honestly say that with the VERY limited dealer network available in Canada that I have had little trouble acquiring parts.

As for you comment about them being unreliable, I would suggest putting on the flame suit now as there are other Duc owners that are members here that will be glad to voice their opinions.

Ducati owners tend to be, for one, very experienced riders, you don't lay down $30K+ just to blast around town in shorts and a t-shirt.

These bikes are ridden HARD, they probably see at least 4 track days a season and the riders tend to be either current or ex-racers.

As for working on a Duc, while the do not have the tidiest layouts for wiriring etc, everything is layed out so that an actual human can work on the bike.

This comes from being assembled by individual workers rather than a machine on an assembly line.

As for the reliablility comment??

Take a look at World superbike racing or the MotoGP series.

Ducati is the only manufacturer that has a bike capable of beating the Honda RC211V, even the honda Engineers are amazed at how capable the Ducati bike is.

I don't think your comparison was accurate, at least in the ducati reference

Don't own a ferrarri(yet)

I look forward to any comments.

DP

hey freez,

i have owned a Ducati 916 since 97 and have had no problems. only general maint. (oil changes and one tuneup). a very well made bike. just like the Redline appears to be. we will see!

These pics were posted on the Firecat forums by Flatlander.Cofeill's Sport & Power, CT has this sled on display.Sled cannot be ridden or even started as they were not given a ignition chip from Redline.

Engine

Front of sled

Rear suspension

Seat/tunnel look very wide.I would not like this at all.My favorite thing about the 13.5X128 track is the narrow tunnel.Really makes the sled feel light & easy to toss around.

Thanks for the pics. Still like the looks and concepts sitting there. Hope it becomes a reality.

I knew I was out on a limb with the Ducati comment ;) ,knowing Dpaiges hobby and love for crotch rockets,thanx for putting me straight Dpaige :sly:

BTW nice way to use a PM to back you up :sarcasm:

But I will stand by my comments on the Redline Farce

They have good concepts but their product is no where near its release date once again for the 5th time

The Rear suspension has great potential with its centering of pivot point,but chassis is nose long

Maybe if they had Factory help like AD Boivin did with SnowHawk

It is too bad we don't hear about Bessette anymore,he had great concepts

BTW any of our Quebec area guys hear anything from Bessette in the past year or 2???

Here is bessette's latest creation, he lives a few min away from my place :D

That is too cool. Does he have a web site we can learn more from?

Thanx for the link

It looks like the Bessette Attack with 1100 Kawi from 00?? :hallo1:

I have it on tape here (Snowtrax)

Has he done more updates on it???

I know he had the twin track ZL 600 :sly:

And I had a pic of a trailing arm dual track helicopter shaped fully enclosed sled,but can't find the pic anymore :doh:

These people must be just bleeding money at this point. The years of advertising and show costs they absorb to show pictures and demo models of sled they can't sell must cost a fortune. I come from a mfg. backround and have a reasonable amount of experience in launching new product lines of a mechanical nature. My guess is that if they aren't online by now to produce sleds, they are going to miss this upcoming season alltogeter. How long can they afford to keep doing this with no incoming sales? Like someone else here just said, I'll believe it when I see it.
'02 MXZ 600

they're putting a rush on things to get the sleds out.
Minnesota Power is helping them locate an alternative builder in or around Minnesota.
It seems to be between about 5 companies right now. One of them is obvious. Anyone have a guess?

Originally posted by paul yarek@Aug 8 2003, 06:31 PM
60 days before a assembly is negotiated ? then 60 days to set up and 30 days shipping. middle of january before any hit the floor from a makeshift assembly plant. they can't even get quantity control under control why would they even try quality control. i feel for the guy that drunkenly steps up to the dealer and buys one of these plagued to be sleds.
Add to those lead times:

120 days for shocks, 60 days for tracks, 60 days for molded parts, 45 days for pipes, 60 days for seats, 60 days on primary/secondary clutches.....the list goes on.

Don't even get me started on those welded chassis/A-arms/suspension components ;)

Forget it. Being from a company who's started from scratch and succeeded, they should have been receiving parts since May and building since July, maybe sooner seeing as they have a fairly complex vehicle to build.

-Rob

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Aug 11 2003, 10:25 PM
Ya but they were suppose to release a sled in 99

Hell they won a "Popular Mechanics Award" in 99 for sled design :sarcasm:

But this is 5 yrs later and they still have nothing to show ;)

I doubt they can keep up this charade.

What happened to the 594 Patriot fourcycle?? The Rebelion SX 602?702?802? or the Detuned 1300cc triple from a helicopter :doh:

I know they were "screwed "by the WSA yet they announced and had a deal with CSRA to race em in 2000,but they had nothing to show :doh:

Now even with only one model they still can't build them,how can anyone trust reliabilty??

I have been trying to keep close to them but gave up 2yrs ago
"What happened to the 594 Patriot fourcycle?? The Rebelion SX 602?702?802? or the Detuned 1300cc triple from a helicopter"

The Patriot 604 single 4-stroke was supposed to be a 60lb, 60hp engine (on par with, say a 503 fan) built by Corbin.

Corbin has since gone ###### up, so that option is gone.

The helicopter engine idea 'flew away" from them.

-Rob

Originally posted by paul yarek@Aug 12 2003, 02:50 PM
everything is picked ready to go and on track.

all the suppliers want is the colour of the green.

talk is cheap money buys whisky.

same basic problem with a lot of dreamers.
"same basic problem with a lot of dreamers."

You're right on target, Mr. Yarek.

Blah-blah-blah and glossy pamphlets won't get you jack s--t if you don't pay up after the 30 days.

This is the difference between dreamers and producers.

-Rob

Originally posted by DamageInc@Aug 17 2003, 09:30 AM
They have at least updated their web site. I'm starting to doubt whether they will ever go into production, but I would bet that if they do, they will ride like nothing out there. All of the force from bumps is being forced forward into the center of the chassis, instead of straight up into the rider. I still don't see where they are going to put an adequate gas tank, or an adequate snowflap, but all in all, I would say it looks like a very impressive design, that will most likely make the Big 4 look silly, if it is actually ever built.

Redline (http://www.redlinesnowmobiles.com/)
"but all in all, I would say it looks like a very impressive design, that will most likely make the Big 4 look silly"

Impressive design? Maybe. Does that mean it will be better than anything the big four have? Forget it.

People fail to realize the YEARS of experience the Big Four have at building sleds, ensuring their quality and establishing durability/life time envelopes.

The Redline Revolt could possibly work very well, but it'll be a while before they're shoulder to shoulder with the OEM's on all fronts.

-Rob

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Aug 19 2003, 06:00 AM

Maybe if they had Factory help like AD Boivin did with SnowHawk

Tell me about this "Factory Help" from AD Boivin?

That's funny because, there is none.

I agree with many of your posts FreezerBurnt, but please, don't discredit all of our hard work as being at done by the hands of BBD. When Mr. Boivin and our staff are here every weeknight/weekend trying to dial in a primary, get a belt tension down pat or put our latest and greatest creation back together because some new concept just wasn't quite right....Valcourt R&D is a long way from where we are.

BBD is an engine supplier, just like Camoplast supplies tracks and Kayaba supplies shocks - nothing more.

The Snow Hawk has been carried by the shoulders Boivin family ALONE. Please keep that straight. We have all worked VERY hard to make this dream a reality and if we weren't all snowmobile nuts, it's a dream that would have never materialized.

-Rob

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Aug 19 2003, 06:00 AM
It is too bad we don't hear about Bessette anymore,he had great concepts

BTW any of our Quebec area guys hear anything from Bessette in the past year or 2???
Bessette really is a nice guy, but he has fallen victim to his own creations, financially.

Bessette had a very prosperous business supplying BBD Valcourt with automated equipment (PLC's, etc) and troubleshooting services for their assembly plant, but since he blew the budget with his hobbies, his business has gone bankrupt.

He is now working with Kimpex in Drummondville, Quebec, concentrating on the refinement of their ATV track system since their first year was less than a success. They are currently infringing on one of our US Patents from our Traxion+ ATV track system, but we are not too worried about it at the present time since their system has many other problems to sort out before it is a threat.

-Rob

I dont know, I love the way that sled looks, I wish them all the luck in the world!!! How much are we talking here for this sled? If it isnt anything really outrageous I might plop down some dough!! How cool would that be to be a first generation Redline Rider!! SWEET! Getting excited now gotta go!!

Labradorboy I believe has put this one to rest. That's what I call first hand knowledge or an awesome bull shi**er. Either way you got me sold. Thanks for the input. People with knowledge and strong opinions are the reason why I love this site. Yeah, good point, what would one of these cost?? I guess $15,000.

supposed to be around 12, I believe.

PowderBoy,glad to see you respond here


By factory help I meant the engine supplying and earlier parts that were on the 1st and 2nd protos

Sorry I never meant that Bomby help design the SnowHawk ;)

BTW rumours of 800HO Snowhawk true :thumbsup: ???

And are you guys going to the 553 fan Rotax??

Some guy had a Snowhawk here last year and that thing ripped :hallo1:

:0: I got a little info on Redline this weekend, by complete accident. I had a party at my house this weekend, and a buddy of mine who I talk to only a couple times a year were talking. He works at shop were they test and dyno engines for just about anything you can imagine, and also do custom fabricating for any motor out there. He tells me that they just finished assembling a Redline sled for a dealer and that Redline is negotiating a contract with them to start production. Unfortunatly I cant remember the name of the shop he works at, but it is in Livonia MI. :angry: To bad a guy that knows very little about sleds gets the chance to see and assemble such a unique sled, Im jealous :p

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Aug 22 2003, 04:37 AM
PowderBoy,glad to see you respond here


By factory help I meant the engine supplying and earlier parts that were on the 1st and 2nd protos

Sorry I never meant that Bomby help design the SnowHawk ;)

BTW rumours of 800HO Snowhawk true :thumbsup: ???

And are you guys going to the 553 fan Rotax??

Some guy had a Snowhawk here last year and that thing ripped :hallo1:
Thanks for the note, but it's LabradorBoy.

The answers to your questions are classified information. Come to one of the big shows, talk to me, you'd be surprised what a face-to-face conversation can uncover.

-Rob

Originally posted by LabradorBoy@Aug 27 2003, 10:41 PM
Thanks for the note, but it's LabradorBoy.

The answers to your questions are classified information. Come to one of the big shows, talk to me, you'd be surprised what a face-to-face conversation can uncover.

-Rob
Be prepared to talk sleds and about the Sno Hawk as Rob is an extremely well spoken and nice guy. Anyone who has the pleasure to meet Rob knows what i'm talking about. 800cc sno hawk, hmmmm!!! to go there or not to go there??? Like Rob says come to a big show!!

Originally posted by 98 EXT@Aug 20 2003, 07:50 PM
Labradorboy I believe has put this one to rest. That's what I call first hand knowledge or an awesome bull shi**er. Either way you got me sold. Thanks for the input. People with knowledge and strong opinions are the reason why I love this site. Yeah, good point, what would one of these cost?? I guess $15,000.
Nope, no bulls--t.

I am Mr. Boivin's right hand man and we bring new ideas to life every day. I know what kind of work, effort, mindset and supplier lead time it takes just to get all the parts at the start of the assembly line on-time from my experience in the industry.

Redline has a lot of things to learn before they roll a production sled off the assembly line.

-Rob

It looks like they have some really innovative ideas about the designs. I can only imagine that it would take a while to get everything on track. But I know how investors work cause I have invested in new companies and without having quick results and a really smooth tougued pitchman a new company can go under very quickly. It takes lots of money to get started...especially during ression like times as we are having now. Couple that with some bad winters and its an exedrin moment every 1/2 hour. If Redline has good, innovative thinking people behind them along with strong standing investors, I'm sure that when they start production it will be like a whirlwind in sales. Everybody will want one....including me.

Originally posted by LabradorBoy@Aug 27 2003, 10:41 PM

Thanks for the note, but it's LabradorBoy.


OOPS :doh: :p :D

Sorry did not mean to offend ;)

So I guess you gonna be at the Toronto show ???

hmm classified :sarcasm:

My mouth is zipped :sly: :thumbsup:

Keep up the great work LabradorBoy

Rob,
Will you be at the Big East Show this year?? I missed last years but plan on going this year as I need some carbides..
Did you ever get that Mach 1 670 motor together??

Cheers,
Evel

Originally posted by Sled Dogg+Aug 28 2003, 03:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sled Dogg @ Aug 28 2003, 03:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-LabradorBoy@Aug 27 2003, 10:41 PM
Thanks for the note, but it&#39;s LabradorBoy.

The answers to your questions are classified information.* Come to one of the big shows, talk to me, you&#39;d be surprised what a face-to-face conversation can uncover.

-Rob
Be prepared to talk sleds and about the Sno Hawk as Rob is an extremely well spoken and nice guy. Anyone who has the pleasure to meet Rob knows what i&#39;m talking about. 800cc sno hawk, hmmmm!!! to go there or not to go there??? Like Rob says come to a big show!! [/b][/quote]
Caleb, hope to see you in Novi this year....I should be there once again.

-Rob

Originally posted by Evel@Aug 28 2003, 03:29 PM
Rob,
Will you be at the Big East Show this year?? I missed last years but plan on going this year as I need some carbides..
Did you ever get that Mach 1 670 motor together??

Cheers,
Evel
Evel,

It did come together, but now I have two ....LOL

Just sold one, now I&#39;m working on piecing the sucker together, it&#39;s a long term project, I have so many things to do at one time it&#39;s crazy.

Hope to see you at the Big East Show, you can bet your azz I&#39;ll be there ;)

-Rob

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt+Aug 28 2003, 01:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FreezerBurnt @ Aug 28 2003, 01:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-LabradorBoy@Aug 27 2003, 10:41 PM

Thanks for the note, but it&#39;s LabradorBoy.


OOPS :doh: :p :D

Sorry did not mean to offend ;)

So I guess you gonna be at the Toronto show ???

hmm classified :sarcasm:

My mouth is zipped :sly: :thumbsup:

Keep up the great work LabradorBoy [/b][/quote]
No offense taken, it was just a correction :)

I will be at both the Lester&#39;s Show and the Kehoe&#39;s Show, hope to see you there.
Be sure to reference your SW.com screen name first though ;)

-Rob