Check this $hit out. Looks good. But you never know till they hit the snow.
http://www.supertorquer.com/new_for_03.htm
http://www.supertorquer.com/Hammer%20Time.htm
???

Well, in the past the ST stuff has fallen sub par IMO. Ran their TRA system a couple of years ago and had nothing but problems with dialing it in. Called ST, and it was nothing but "you need to try a different helix, spring, etc....." and thier starting point setup was way off. Burned up allot of belts and $$$ trying to tune it in, and ended up taking it out. All the major tuners around here who started with it, have taken them back out.

I hope for their sake that they did their homework on this new product, as there is allot of people who won't waste their time on it again.

my opinion is that people should concentrate on how to tune their oem system instead of wasting $$$ on such fallacy with guile descriptions.

Anything from keellunker i would recommend to stay away from.

I really hate when people think others are suckers and everybody will eat up a cunning description of how details function. :cussing:

You can buy a few good used helix's, new springs and earn yourself a whole lot of education of your personal system instead of dumping your hard earned $$$ on the article depict. :angry:

I agree with Dave and Joe on this one.

Instead of throwing your money away on ST,just log on to this site and get advice from some of the clutching x-perts here.All I see in these magazine's nowadays are alot of fancy ads promising this and that(U.F.O's are a prime eg.) and most of them don't live up to there promises.

I believe in and run ST products, but I have also ran Dalton and other products too. I'll be able to tell you after Friday how the new billet secondary works on the grass.

Originally posted by Srxspec@Aug 13 2003, 11:46 AM
I believe in and run ST products, but I have also ran Dalton and other products too.* I'll be able to tell you after Friday how the new billet secondary works on the grass.
I don't believe that DALTON has anything to do with this subject in any way shape or form, nor any other aftermarket company like Dalton who make clutch parts for OEM Clutches :sarcasm:

I think most of us who contribute saying "dont waste your money" are coming from the point of that you are better off to spend that money on learning your own system as you should be better off in the end.
1] you gain knowledge of how to tune,
2] you still maintain oem clutch.
3] if and when you sell your sled, it will be worth not one penny more with aftermarket clutch or without it.
4] If one breaks down an buys a quality clutch kit that actually can deliver what they say, then you're probably over $100 + dollars ahead.
5] you werent fooled into buying a secondary by hype and clever marketing strategy to gyp you out of your hard earned $$$

Ive got into non-constructive arguements with tuners over such fodder. They say, I bolted it on and Boy did it work good.
Really?....so that means you could not tune your own clutches to make it work good?
or
That this means that your stock clutch can not ever be possibly tuned as good as an aftermarket clutch?

I say BAH! If one follows their pen as they write down their notes from testing, the words themselves make paths to give you directions to choose from to make other decisions.
"The pen is mightier than the sword". Look back and think to some things you did in clutching last season that was a turning point for you that raised questions for you. I bet nearly none of you can remember anything that was a turning point. I bet the ones who can, wrote notes.
So much of your efforts are aimed where you have to make a decision. Decisions cost money right? What helix to buy next? What spring to buy next? Or borrow something. Well the notes you take down are the clues that will help you decide what to do next. Your notes will eventually tell you what to do. You know the theories, now you can put real-world exercises against the theories and you will make a great decision instead of a grief decision.
It is your education process where you sell to yourself. I get emails constantly from guys they sell me their experiences from their notes.... and I buy what they are saying.

If you want to let someone else do the work for you, then fine. What do you have?...not a heavy wallet....not knowledge.
What if the aftermarket product does not work?...who ya gonna call?
HAHAHAHA...
I guess if you don't get results and you have to start buying more parts to make it work...well then, I guess you're set back about $375 bucks and now the learning starts.

Sorry if I come across here like I have a chip on my shoulder...
...heh, I do have one with this co.

It makes me grit my teeth when I read "i believe in...."
I believe in that people are getting duped from clever explanations that leave no openings for questions.... unless you have an engineering background and can challenge the explanation and descriptions of how some of these products work :cussing:

...Im lucky I have this background. :devil:

Dynamo^Joe, I have always read and respected your posts on both here and Amsnow and I still will read and respect them! Sorry if I hit a bad spot (that chip you were referring too ??? ) on your shoulder. I didn't mean to make my post sound like Heel Clickers or this new secondary will be the absolute best in the business. I also didn't mean to cause any turmoil by bringing Dalton into this conversation. I have been testing products for Dale for a few years arleady and him and I have a very good relationship! I agree that if you have the knowledge or want to take the time to make a better clutched sled yourself you can do it by using OEM parts, but some people sled in very different elevations and conditions and like to use adjustable weights (heavy hitters, heel clickers, hauck launching weights, bender adjustables, etc, but not the factory Yamaha weights).

There isn't hardly a clutch kit out there that is "bolt in and go" because of the fact that not everyone weights the same and not all snow conditions are the same! Heck not even every belt is exactly the same even though they may have the same part number!

I'm not here to argue with you! I'm just simply stating what I have found. I'm not a factory backed grass dragger because I bought a clutch kit that works. Everytime you change something in your clutch you should write it down and you will learn alot.

I will say that I do stand behind the heel clicker product because when tuned right it will outperform most other clutch setups. I will also say that I'm proud to be sponsored by them and glad they make the products they do or I wouldn't of had the success I have had. I don't think we want to or need to get into anything that would involve an engineering background.

I once talked to Freddie about some new clutching products I was working on. He said you had some great ideas and I would actually like to share these ideas with you as I know you are a smart fella, email me sometime if you want to talk aulmer@yahoo.com

heh....no worries there Srxspec. :D

I should not have used "chip on shoulder"

I have an "Axe To Grind" with anything to do about that co. :devil:

hehehe......well i don't grind axes.........so i'm not the person to talk to about that! :doh:

Did I right that I was buying there product. No I don't think so. Did I say I was going to try it No. Did I say it is the shiznick NO. So don't be looking at me as being one of the suckers going out and tryin these products. Take it easy man. I am just showing you guys some of the new products. As for asking people on SW for help with clutching. You are joking right no one ever has a good answer there is no tuners here. I use other sites with more users, more topics, more info, etc. for that kind of info. There just is not enough action on this site to get anwsers. I hope SW5 brings more users? ;)

Ok I have an idea here.

I am allready doing a head to head article for the site comparing a Formula Secondary, RER Secondary, and the Team Secondary. I would be more than willing to take another secondary to the track dyno to see what the results were.

If SuperTorquer would like to step up to the plate, I for one would be willing to listen. TEAM seems to have allot of faith in theirs and followed up with a secondary to test, and if anyone else would do the same, i would say that it is probably a product that works.

XC 600,your right.You were merely pointing out site's with new products of interest and things got turned around a little bit.As far as there being no tuner's or good answers for questions asked on this site,you are wrong.I have yet to see a better site or forum for snowmobile enthusiast's.

Yeah 800x I am alittle of the point here. What I am trying to say is that for example I have a 600 Ves polaris now how many guys here run them my guess 13-20 tops. How many that actually have tuned them 1-3. Its just most of the polaris guys on this site run stock. I personally use this site, which will probably be deleted www.snowest.com They have more info in one day on there site during the summer then this site gets in one day in the middle of the season. Now if I rode a ski doo yeah there is alot more tuners on that side of the wall. I still use this site alot its just alot more trouble shooting then tuning. Thats my opinion I hope I did not offend anyone.

XC600 - I remember talking to you last year in the chat. Just casue I ride a Doo, doesn't mean I can't help ya on your Polaris. Not complaining, just offering.

Some tucked weights and tuning the secondary would do wonders :thumbsup:

800MXZ, what sled and where will this be taking place? I'll pass the info on to ST if you want me to.

Originally posted by 800MXZ@Aug 13 2003, 09:43 PM
Ok I have an idea here.

I am allready doing a head to head article for the site comparing a Formula Secondary, RER Secondary, and the Team Secondary. I would be more than willing to take another secondary to the track dyno to see what the results were.

If SuperTorquer would like to step up to the plate, I for one would be willing to listen. TEAM seems to have allot of faith in theirs and followed up with a secondary to test, and if anyone else would do the same, i would say that it is probably a product that works.
Im making new topic about track dyno subject.

thank you! ! ! :)

Yeah I got it clutched well rite now 10-60 almond/black in the primary, silver blue with a 50-36 in the secondary just need the tools to shim the primary properly I am not paying $40 bucks to get it done that would buy half the cost of the tools to do it myself so they will be ordered this fall. Ask Rocketman not his mach or his mxz could catch me I just cannot get it to shift to 1:1 I plan on gearing down and re clutch from there I don't need all that topend.

1] How far is black mark going down your helix button path?

2] You take sled and make run to top end, now you stay there for about 20 seconds or so and seem to think you cannot get top end?....
...you stop and take secondary temperature with hand;
What is secondary temperature?

I've played with two 600's like yours with exact setup.
Have good all around setup for twisty trail I believe, but could be improved midrange, especially upper end of midrange.

I bet an improvement would be to goto a Ski-Doo beige spring @ 18 lbs or so, but I prefer spring with one less coil. Its a black spring that EPI makes and I cannot remember what it is. I will email buddy and ask him what is used.

What I do not care for is the step helix "R" helix that "P" uses.
Dalton PR50/ 38-32
Has 50 for less than 1/2 inch step then blends into 38-32 smooth.
32 will get rid of heat quite a bit and get some more top end.
MHO final angle can go much lower.

I would like a helix that has about 27 degrees of full progression. :devil:


........why you want to shim primary? Belt clearance problem?

Geeze Joe. This is what you think of your clients that have your stuff that don't build their own? Geeze Thanks! I'm hurt! -Grover :withstupid: :D

Well the problem with the primary is that I have .190" clearance to the new belt. Way off spec and thats from new. But I would think the sheaves wore a little bite not that much i hope. I Think even when I get the primary shimmed in spec I will get full shift out on the primary. Yeah I haven't done the marker test on the helix yet because I have no reason to do that untill the primary is in spec then get everything working together. Just didn't have the cash to do it last season. Now I need snow to tune again. But thanks Joe

Srxspec, if they are interested, ST can find me at 800mxz@snowmobileworld.com

Originally posted by Grover@Aug 14 2003, 06:22 PM
Geeze Joe. This is what you think of your clients that have your stuff that don't build their own? Geeze Thanks! I'm hurt! -Grover :withstupid: :D
*bam*bam*bam*bam*.....

"my head hurts."

*sigh*...well I never thought of it that way....but uhh, No if you are referring to this..."If you want to let someone else do the work for you, then fine. What do you have?...not a heavy wallet....not knowledge.
What if the aftermarket product does not work?...who ya gonna call?

I supply a trouble shooting manual with my kits because my kit is not a "No-brainer".
It does take some figuring out and the reason you must figure out is that each individual sled/engine has its own personality. More importantly its the engine that has "personality".

What I did was simply build a kick-a$s helix that is very picky to tune to but when you tune to it, the results are most impressive over stock.
You end up learning your personal system...You end up with Knowledge. Now you can spread your knowledge helping others.


....I think ! ? !

People are getting sucked into all of supertorquers gadgetry!! Id say the concept of the original supertorquer weights is solid, the rest since then is BS!! Im a firm believer in keeping it simple, the oems spend alot of money optimizing their clutch design and looking for better ways to transmit power, If Supertorquers stuff was that good some oem would be trying to get their hands on this technology. Anyone whos ever met Randy Nois will probably agree he fits the fast talking car salesman stereotype, he'll baffle you with BS and before you know it youve got his stuff on your sled and 99% of the buyers HAVE NO IDEA how to make it work. I spent 2 winters trying to figure out his TRA heelclickers before I got rid of them, and Id have to say my clutch knowledge is well above average.. So that leads me to wonder what was it like for the rest of the poor souls who bought the heelclickers based on the Supertorquer hype, then was left in the cold with junk that didnt work. Like I said the original Heelclicker weight concept has worked in my experience BUT the rest of his crap goes in the Rave Link catagory.

Not here to bash the HC but I had to chuckle when I read about the "new and improved" flyweights. Why? I remember reading the tech papers on the original HC. Randy showed us how the stock flyweight was lacking mass at low shift ratio but had plenty at higher shift ratios. The solution was the revolutionary HC flyweight, it had the extra mass on the heel that would go away as the clutch shifted out. Seemed reasonable. Ok now we got the new and improved HC, the mass comes back at high shift ratio? Seems to me that would act be the same as a stock flyweight? Maybe I'm just not smart enought to see it?

Same with the new touchpoint secondary, in my mind he has made a secondary that shifts like a multi-angle cam using a straight cam. Why not just use a multi if thats what you want? the angles I've seen guys using to make them work IMO negates the whole touchpoint theory. Again, maybe I'm not smart enough to see it?

Joe, Just messing with ya a bit. Most aftermarket stuff is like that. If you don't have the basic understanding on what to do when you install something don't install it. Most people do just that and when it dosen't turn their 150cc wonder monkey into a 1200cc tazmanian devil they call it junk. Some of the blame goes to the wizard selling it, but alot has to do with end user not understanding it or how to solve the problem. That is why aftermufflers, ski's and such are a popular items! -Grover ;)

I have run the HC weights in my sled and I loved them. Took some adjusting but they worked just great. I removed the weights and tried every other spring , weight combo and helix I had and then some and nothing would match the pull I got out of the hole through midrange as the HC weights did. Then to make it even better yet I installed a Cat roller secondary on my Polaris and it just got better. I am in the process of getting an HC kit for my atv. I know alot of guys running them on quads with nothing but positive results. 99% of them can now run in high range with no belt slip what so ever in the hills or deep in the thick mud and all with stock engagement rpm or lower.