800MXZ:
Ok I have an idea here.
*I am allready doing a head to head article for the site comparing a Formula Secondary, RER Secondary, and the Team Secondary. I would be more than willing to take another secondary to the track dyno to see what the results were.
*If SuperTorquer would like to step up to the plate, I for one would be willing to listen. TEAM seems to have allot of faith in theirs and followed up with a secondary to test, and if anyone else would do the same, i would say that it is probably a product that works.*

==============================

Hello:

I personally do not like track dynos.
There are many details in dynamics that are not factored in while using one.

I was in Thompson MB last year with Team Skidoo & their invited racers. I was there to put my S4X clutch kit on a 440 sled as they wanted to see what it would do.
I ran against a twin to this 440 which had stock clutching.

During this week I got to make several passes on Glen Kafka's track dyno. Glen showed me how to use it and left me go to town on it. The sled come with a Portatree timing system on it so you could simulate to a degree a 500 ft run.
The stock clutched sled made more power to the track and won a simulated 500' race each and every run over my clutch kit.
I was getting sick to my stomach how good the stock clutch details were working.
I was losing by 2/10th to 4/10ths of a second every time.

BUT!!!!...when we went out to the track and raced side by side, my kit would pass the stocker in 100 feet. We paced out a few times about 33-34 paces at where my kit would pass the stocker. I would have 5 to 6 mph more top end each pass near the end of the track in bumps.

Back on the dyno...I would lose....back on the track, I would win.
...sleds have same details in engine configuration.

So I talk with SUPERTUNER "Freddie Klies" ECP Performance [http://www.easterncycleperf.com/]
and TOOLE "Dale Toole" Dalton [http://www.daltonindustries.com/index.html] about this information.
They both say to me, they have found the same thing in many cases.
They both say to me..."Dont get down on the dyno". heh heh... "Down" being "Disapointed."
Freddie talked of how he would tighten the rear idler tension about 4 to 6 flats on both bolts and not tell the owner, then do another pull and there would be several hp loss on the curve.

Dale tells me that a big mistake guys do is they end up adding way more flyweight than needed for trail riding or all around use. Everything is ok and sled goes like snot until there are bumps at high speeds, the sled falls flat on its face because there is like 4 grams too much flyweight installed...or otherwise.

Both say that you can show a ton of HP on the dyno with adding flyweight and/or running large angle helix, but when it hits the ground and the dynamic effects will prove that calibration in this form is bad.

So I will say that in my personal case, stock clutching on an 03 rev 440 beat my S4X kit on the dyno 24 times. But on the ground in an all out drag to top end, stock did not stand a chance.
....throw big bumps in at speeds of over 60 mph and the stocker would not keep pulling.

...I have better faith in "environment" testing than simulation.

I am not too sure I want to put my 800 [S8X] kit on the dyno. Im afraid this same thing will happen and people will think it's no good.


Any comments please....


p.s., I would love to see a shootout on 800 clutch kits. Take one bone stock 800 sled that run on 87 octane and have different mfg'rs kits, including mine. Make a test procedure, where the sled will be driven, what it will be driven on, for how many miles...mileage...acceleration, clutch temperature.....different body weight of drivers...yatta yatta...

im with you on this joe i have seen some guys with countless hours on a track dyno only to get spanked out at the lake. now they are supposed to be all set up now right? wrong... now the clutching comes out ,the jetting the suspention,... so then what was the dyno run for? go with the engine h.p. and find the peek .

We've been using the track dyno with good success for the last two seasons now. But in all instances we have always gone to the track dyno with an existing setup and we were just trying to refine that setup, not making radical changes. I do agree though the dyno is only as good as the base point you have for it. It's very easy to make it read huge numbers, just like an engine dyno really. I think they work, but you must have a baseline to base off of otherwise you can get some wrong readings! Most of the time when we come off the track dyno our setup is within 100-200 rpm of where it needs to be when we go down our test track, it's the first 60-100' that is hard to similate on a track dyno though.

the key to any dyno reputation is the repeatability,I am talking everything the same.air and water temp, pipe temp to name a couple.but to say dynos are not good tools would be false.the set-ups gained from the dyno can get you many hours ahead of the time you spend on the sled.the dyno cannot take into consideration the effects of air around the sled and weight of the rider.but what I read joe is that you have better set-ups without the dyno,is that without the testing also?and if not how much time are you out compared to the guy on the dyno?no track dyno here,but its not because I think they are a waste.if you feel they are a waste your not dealing with the right place,that I feel about any dyno service.I myself know where the best set-ups I have used came from,and I know they use a track dyno.

The track dyno has been saught after to do this evaluation for a couple of reasons. I am attempting to compare one clutch vs another, and short of weeks of time grass dragging (and time we do not have) it is the only way to compare them prior to sled season. Come snow, I will follow up on each. But for now, we are going to use the track dyno to show results, then follow up the results on the snow and see if they are real world.

I will always consider anything in order to gain information.

dooman]...The key to any dyno reputation is the repeatability, I am talking everything the same, air, water temp, pipe temp to name a couple. To say dynos are not good tools would be false.

Hope you're not putting words in my mouth here thinking that I said "they are not good tools"

dooman]...The set-ups gained from the dyno can get you many hours ahead of the time you spend on the sled. The dyno cannot take into consideration the effects of air around the sled and weight of the rider.

I see a track dyno only offers hp figures from what is applied from the engine thru the clutches. I'd be curious to try using this to calibrate for speed runs. The dynamics involved are slight, Dynamics in reference to "something causing clutching to react to changes" other than the push from the engine. Basically its just flat pavement pushing back against the engine.

Bumps are reasons for backshift...
Snow is a reason for slow upshift...
...list goes on.
To me I cannot see how a track dyno can offer these dynamics to let the clutches show its true character in the environment it will be used in.

Mebbe where there is little dynamics to deal with like outright dragracing or speed runs where the clutching has to deal with slight spin and even less action from the suspension....

dooman]...but what I read joe is that you have better set-ups without the dyno, is that without the testing also?

This is very tough topic to answer for me. I only talk about my setup where the stock setup beat me on the track dyno in simulated 500' run, but everytime on the actual environment, I would literally pass that other sled in 100 feet and out do by 5 to 6mph in top end.
SoOoOoOoo....there were experienced track dyno users standing in front of a laptop paying great attention to these plots.

dooman]...and if not how much time are you out compared to the guy on the dyno?

I was consistantly pulling 2-10ths to 4-10ths slower times.

dooman]...If you feel they are a waste your not dealing with the right place,that I feel about any dyno service. I myself know where the best set-ups I have used came from,and I know they use a track dyno.

I mentioned nothing of "waste". I merely said I don't put much faith in them for environment testing.

dooman]...The track dyno has been saught after to do this evaluation for a couple of reasons. I am attempting to compare one clutch vs another, and short of weeks of time grass dragging (and time we do not have) it is the only way to compare them prior to sled season. Come snow, I will follow up on each. But for now, we are going to use the track dyno to show results, then follow up the results on the snow and see if they are real world.

Scenario...Lets say you have this superterker sickondary and it outperforms a AC secondary in several pulls.
Now with the AC clutch, what if someone simply changes the helix and maybe spring and it is huge improvement over the aftermarket clutch?

...now what? I would only see this like Chasing-own-tail. Yeah you could change details in aftermarket then improve over AC, then you could change detail in AC clutch and improve again over torkker....
...get my drift?

Now lets say you get into situation like I did. In your eyes, you have this superterker performing better on dyno than AC clutch. Ok now you go into environment and the AC outperforms the superterker?


...now what?

you ever (dynamo joe) consider writing for a publication???? quite interesting reading to say the least.....back to the issue at hand, what type of data does the track dyno show...numbers, strip charts, you win/lose, etc....I guess my point is, is there a way to look at the data and interpolate (or go off a gut instinct) that would make you say "yeah, this does show more on the dyno, BUT in real world conditions won't hold water because (insert reason)".........I'm guessing an ace dyno operator/tuner could make such predictions.....

kielbasa I would love to do articles of my experiences in a magazine like snotech.
Would love to be in discussion on more high-end clutching talk in such a zine.


....but I am just small-fry in this clutching thing so what I wish for I think is kinda arrogant and im not really that qualified. he he he :)

what dyno gives hp numbers? let me know I want one.dynos do not give hp numbers,and never have.they give torque numbers , you do the math to get the hp.now as to what you say about racing and dynos maybe better for that.I agree 100 % ,why would anyone dyno a trail rider?unless they want to race it.like I stated the set-ups I use come from a track dyno,I know a couple people that had better luck running a set-up from the same place.I would like to know joe what is the name of your company?

the dyno we used was a dyno mite dyno sort of a hand held unit that after the dyno run you could actually strap the unit on the sled to get other results such as rpm. but it did give h.p. and torque and rpm and secs per run and pipe heat and engine heat. we did not have to calculate for h.p. but did have to correct for the clutch and temp.

machz69 ,the dyno did not tell you hp.the software did.hp is nothing more than excelerated torque.all dyno's measure torque,some have software with them that converts for you.but when I read some of info I have, I question the reliability of the info.I hope joe takes no offense to my post.if you claim to to know all you do ,you should know dynos measure torque.

hp=torque x RPM divided by 5252.

im not really sure about that all i know is that it spit out a papper and thats what was on it.........lol........hehehe :devil: ;) :p

Originally posted by dooman@Aug 15 2003, 04:55 PM
...if you claim to to know all you do ,you should know dynos measure torque.


I don't know why you keep trying to put words in my mouth here Doc...
Now I would like to know what I am "claiming"

When do you read me say "I know this...or I know that" ? ? ?
I can only think you see me as standing on a Soap Box making everyone's point less like striving for competitive advantage and to garner attention.

Sorry I guess I shoulda said it the way you said it... ...dynos do not give hp numbers,and never have.they give torque numbers , you do the math to get the hp.now...

I hope for the price of these dyno's that they supply Software to convert torque to hp thru math for the owner.
Years ago in sno-tech, I seemed to remember an article of one of these track dynos. The zine had a print out of a run during the story. The page had two colored lines. I think, one blue and one red. I may be mistaken but one must have been torque, could the other one have been water temperature?

I am not here to bash anyone first."I get what you say" from the many topics you have posted in ,not just this one.you say in one post dynos might be good for drag racing and such,and in previous post you say they were not good for that testing.that makes me question the whole picture.I agree 100 percent that for sno-x type ,cross country racing, dynos are not the best choice for tuning.I said how much time were the testers ahead of you,not talking the times you have racing. but the actual time you have testing your kit or set-up as compared to the guy that has minor tweeks to do because he is ahead from the dyno time.correct most dynos bought today include software that convert for you,I was running dynos when this was more uncommon,and seen more rarely.I feel if your using the same dyno back to back testing procedures all the same,no one trying to fool the dyno,you'll find they are very accurrate and great tools.I am with you 100 pecent in that for most instances the kit designed on the dyno will need tweeking,I will bet not nearly as much as the guy that goes out blind.as for using the dyno for simulating a race,I have not ever tried it and would not take that info to heart,as you stated when on the track real world results will very not from clutching as much as other factors in your sled refer to machz69's post about suspention,ect..perfect example,I got my set-up from the guy I know who uses track dyno, kit required very lil tweeking ,I added just a lil more weight,to prevent an over-rev.that put me about 8-10 hrs ahead of the rest,doing the blind trial and error testing.that to me that equates to more riding time for me,that is basically my point.again joe what is your company?

one more thing you quote me as a post I had nothing to doo with,give dave(800mxz) his credit ;) . Barry :)

remember when the first heelclickers came out for the tra-i got a set before they were readily available. all of their advertising charts and data was obviously from track dyno's. the setups they gave us were for mxz 800's(at the time they had no printed data that they gave us -just over the phone stuff). these setups were absolutely pathetic. stock stuff would accelerate quicker and had more top end. i called and confirmed what they said was working for them-the elevation, temps, jetting etc.-no way this stuff would work in the real world. i spent probably 20 hours with a stock 700 and 800 and finally got it to work under real snow conditions. this experience showed me it is easy to make a track dyno read nice #'s-but it has nothing to with what works really well. i'd like to here from someone who knows if any factory starts at the track dyno and develops a setup or goes from a closer, proven setup to the track dyno and tweaks it from there. i would say that the heelclicker guys started with the track dyno and existing springs from their kits and worked to a good dyno set-up. if you notice, their first printed set-up/instuction sheets in their 1st tra kits were changed right after initial delivery of the first batch. the new instructions are much better set-ups. fett bros. is supposed to have a new track dyno that simulates real world conditions very accurately (fett bros. says so) , and i would like to here some results from that.

I will not argue with fett bros. about their dyno.I got some info as I was going to get a new dyno,the one I used moved to colo., they have some new computer controled valves that are sup. too get you the loads you seek when you want them.which is ,a better set-up than a manual valve to load,as well as a very repeatable way too.the loading simulation could be had any way in which you choose.I know the tech is there to tell you how the sled is being loaded ,so it is very possible to measure that and duplicate it on a newer dyno.or a retro fitted older unit.now the dyno I seek is not a track dyno, but rather the engine model.which if you go with land and sea is very adaptable to many other uses,using the same absorber.

however you will not simulate the other factors in the equation,suspention,jetting,ect. for the day

Originally posted by dooman@Aug 19 2003, 10:42 AM
....doing the blind trial and error testing.that to me that equates to more riding time for me,that is basically my point. Again joe what is your company?
Yeeesh....OK man!! lol

*sigh*

Umm, my company is called "Northern Catalyst"

here is more interesting info about track dyno stuff. the new thunder arms for tra advertise that a great fault of the tra's is that the heavy pin weight at the tip kills the top end speed of ski-doo's(track hp increases -on the dyno -when you use their arms they claim) , and with their arms ,by adding weight to the bottom and getting it away from the tip you can increase the top speed and track hp over the entire torque curve. so far i havn't seen any top speed increase- but the added weight in the bottom of the arm helps control big low rpm -high torque motors in my experience. i still can't say it's any better than the best set-up i ever had with conventional tra parts. i think they give you another easier way of tuning without buying a bunch of stuff like ramps, springs,etc. any comments? dynamoe-essentially they're saying reduce tip weight -add it lower in the arm and your 440 will go faster. my best (fastest and quickest) 440 setup ironically is with mag arms and really heavy pins. never seen a quicker one other than bill bickfords when we wer at fenwick a few years ago, and on snow i've never seen a faster one on the lake. this is totally opposite of what thunder products suggests their arms do. never had my setup on a track dyno though.

A few years back, I went to my dealer and did a total of 98 runs on his track dyno. I tried many different clutch setups, including stock, skidoos' race manual setup, and many different setups I came up with on my own while testing on grass and snow. My stock (at the time) '97 Mach 1, ran best with my own clutch setup that I found while testing on grass for a competition (which I later won that summer with my setup in a final with 3 other '97 Mach 1's). I did my own testing using feel and my digitron with datalogger. Now on the track dyno, I increased track horsepower from my stock setup of 71 h.p. to 79 h.p. with only clutching and belt changes. From the dyno to the grass, I did have to click my T.R.A. back up to 4 to keep same rpm's as compared to best track dyno setup at #3 clicker. Just to add a little more info. my stock sled setup for summer 500' grass drags was geared down to 21/44, jetted down to 260 m.j.'s from stock 350's and timing was advanced from stock 0.086" BTDC to 0.091" BTDC, and a cooling cart was used along with a small 12volt fan that I used to cool clutches and engine between runs. Also, engine was in perfect alignment and all supension wheel bearings were good. This was all done before any dyno runs.
Two years ago, I also had my engine dynoed on my buddies' Land & Sea dyno. My engine now was trail ported, has balanced pistons, trued crank with steel cage bearings and all case mods for oil distribution, matched base gasket, and V-Force II's. I did the dyno test with 360 m.j. at -1 Celcius outside (which was safe jetting to -30 C). All I wanted to know was if my engine made more power with stock suitcase muffler or lightweight MBRP Eliminator muffler. Stock muffler maxed out at 129.6 H.P. @ 8300 rpm with 82 lbs-ft. @ 8100 - 8300 rpm. The B&B muffler maxed out at 135.2 H.P. @ 8280 rpm with 85.8 lbs.-ft. @ 8280 rpm and 85 lbs.-ft. from 7800-8310 RPM. The B&B muffler made more power, torque and got there much quicker than stock muffler. The power seems low for a slightly moddified 700 tripple as compared to many other magazine #'s but I know that my Mach made good power as it has always been very quick.
These are my experiences on two different types of dynoes and I only want to add that I believe dynoes are just another tool to help dial in a motor or chassis along with lots of hands-on, out-in-the-field testing.
Hope this helps ! :p