: Black Ice Helixs
09-01-2003, 11:21 PM
Over the past couple of years i have gathered a large number of helixs,mostly non coated doos,but a have a box of HRPs that are suppose to be one of the best.I have always been hesitant to use them because the numbers leave alot to the imagination,I have heard a straight 46 is equal to a doo noncoated 50 but whos to say.Does anyone have a chart or enough experience to help me put a doo number to these helixs??I currently run a 54-48 non coated doo helix,and was going to try a few of these,just wondering what would be close(i do have a few multiangles)
09-02-2003, 01:16 AM
John I have one of brads original charts, it shows -4 on polaris cams, and -8 on skidoo. A qoute from the chart:
"HRP cams are measured at the outside diametr of the ramp angle which is simular to most aftermarket and Polaris OEM cams but skidoo and some aftermarket cams are measured in the center of the ramp which results in a different angle (4 more) than at the outside diameter. Due to thes different sizing and measureing techniques HRP can only suggest our angle size as compared to OEM cams and can no longer recommend a size to replace any other aftermarket cams. please use chart for reference only and select cams based on experience and testing"
My .02, OK, so brad says 8 for the doo. My experience has been 4-6. The measurements accounts for 4 (I buy that), the coating was supposed to worth the other 4? 4+4=8. I've always used 4 for button to roller conversion! the coating IMO and experience is not worth 4 unless your previous cam was stuck to the buttons. 2 maybe, none if your prior button /cam was shifting smooth.
Of course you know the cams were designed for a 1.5" belt to be used with his quadcam primary? so with a 1 3/8'doo belt you either have to double up on the washers or machine a little off the back of the cam to keep your sheave from hitting the bearing retainer bolts. or at least check the clearance with the spring removed.
09-02-2003, 02:20 AM
Its 6 degrees, not sure why youd think they would hit the bearing housing i run the BI and they dont come that close to hitting it, another thing i do like about the BI cams is there taller so when your secondary is opened all the way there is still part of the cam sticking past the bushing on the sheave, doo cams when the secondary is all the way open the cam is inside the sheave on the bushing surface which i think can lead to a better possibility of binding compared to the BI cam. Dan
09-02-2003, 11:21 AM
8 degrees is BS!! Brad just says that to confuse people. I used to do all my clutch kits exclusively with BI helixes and I found 4-6 degrees diference max when comparing head to head with a ski doo helix, and that depended on the quality of the ramp surface on the helix I was using to compare. The coating dont mean squat to me anymore as just about all of the helixes around today are coated too. I sold hundereds of kits using the BI and have tested countless other brands against them. Every BI helix I used would hit the bearing retainer unless I used the additional shim supplied by HRP, The reason for this is the BI helix was designed to be used in 1.45" wide belt applications too, so it sticks out of the sec further.
09-02-2003, 11:19 PM
TT670,so you had to put two washers or 1 washer and a spacer under the c clip to hold the helix deeper into the secondary or it would hit on the bearing on the jack shaft???this confusion is why I have always stuck to the doo helixs in the past,they were consistant.Recently I tried another brand of coated helix,pulled out a doo 54-48 non coated and put in a coated 52-48,with my primary set up the same it would slam the belt down in the secondary,even when almost 10lbs more on the secondary spring it would still over shift.I think these guys want you to buy 5-10helixs and just keep trying untill one works.Any other input would be great and thanks for what has been said!!!
09-02-2003, 11:29 PM
The BI helix comes with a washer, you use that AND the original ski doo washer under the snap ring. If you dont have the HRP washer try using 2 ski doo washers and test fit the clutch on the sled, if it hits add 1 more, its not a big deal. I really like the black ice helix but ran into difficulty getting them in any quantity over 5 at a time, and often had to wait over a month for an order. I was selling kits and needed more, so I went to goodwin stuff. What sled are you using them in, what HRP angles do you have?I might be able to steer you in the right direction?
09-02-2003, 11:58 PM
Thanks 670,Heres my current set up(keep in mind that she dont like deep snow)98 mach z with dyno port pipes,with canister muffler,shim kit,mild trail and crank case port,v force reeds,with a tempa flow.Current clutch is 200-320 with18.7 gram pins,286 ramps,non rer secondary 54-48 helix(non coated)skidoo blue goodwin spring,at 18 lbs,27-43 gears.725 track with 192 1 inch woodies.With the front end chained it went 126.7 in 2000 and 114 in 1000(with almost 3/4 inch deflection)put the old 98 belt on by mistake with the 99 centres.I have tried other doo and Goodwin helixs,but so far the 54-48 is the quickest and fastest.I have like 6 black ice helixs at work,44 and up in straight and i believe the multi is either 52-48 or 48-44(i will look tomorrow before i come home)
09-03-2003, 01:15 AM
I have some BI's that have been cut or machined the thickness of the added shim. they can be run with just one stock washer. The idea was the added washer (or shim) limitsfull shift. The cut cams allow full shift and don't contact the retainer bolts. I've measure the sheave travel both ways, with two doo washers the travel is the same as a stock doo cam. With one washer you would get a little more shift on the top end, like guys try to do running without a washer on the stock cam (not a good idea IMO). Since I run real low gearing and fullshift is a frequent reality I fear "shelving" the belt. With taller gearing I don't think the pull on the belt would be enough to suck it down?
If you have a cam, button towers in your primary etc that you want coated, let me me plug Doug at http://processcoatings.com/ I got a whole box of stuff headed his way.
09-03-2003, 10:32 AM
Those 48/44 BIs have worked good for me in a mutitude of sleds, I dont have alot of experience with the triples but from what youve got listed Id say youre doing pretty good. Like hillpounder said you can machine the helix. Chuck it in a lathe and take off approx .050 from the back lip, wont have any effect on the operation just uses more of the cam angle and may allow a bit more upshift.