Yes I biatched but would pay $175 but feel it is not justified

This poll is for the future of Trail Permit price in Ontario and not pertaining to this year price

I would love to see what Ontario riders think

I would like to keep this post for just Ontario and people who come to Ontario to ride our trails

My Vote is $175 just in case you want to know

Our trails here in Sudbury are no better then 10yrs ago,I am dead serious btw

I have had a trail permit since the $35 one back in 1989 :sly:

Yes I am curious as some are affraid to speak out so I made this poll so they can vote without getting personnaly attacked

Well I would have to say that I would go up to $175 but I would hope to see some things improve around here. We don't even have a club here anymore. I talked to the person that use to run the club and asked where it would be best for me and another guy to go do some brushing of the trail. So he tells me and we go do it and last year they did not even groom it. So things can get frustrating but again I have to say if that is what it costs I guess that is it. Unless something is done by the government I think we are seing the start of the end.

i have not voted because my jury is still out.

i have a few questions and i don't even know where to start but one thing that goes through my mind is how is it the USA side charges pennies it seems with hired help and OFSC is voluteer help.

Paul from what I have heard is that the trails are rarely if ever groomed(DNR). I doubt this goes for all areas south of the border , but from what I have heard I think it is the majority.

Now as for the price of the permit, I get to buy three of them this year as my son will be riding. If they were 200 a piece that would be 600. Can we afford to lay that out all at once. Not a chance. It will take scrimping and scriming to save it all up. I didnt vote either because I am undecided. JEff

Come on people vote :)

you don't need to post just vote

get your voice heard through voting :)

Paul I am sure IndySKS and TrailBlazer can and will gladly answer your question :)

Without volunteers we would have no trails :sly:

they are the heart of our trail system :thumbsup:

FB I dont know the answer to it. I use trails just to get to the powder areas for the most part. I suppose if they got too exspensive I would just trailer to the spots but that would not be as fun. My son is going to be on the trails this year so i dont think he will be doin much powder busting,lol. I just find it hard to even put a price on something that is so valuable and close to my heart. You are not the only one out there without a 5 figure income for the family and trust me we all feel the pinch as it seems the only things that dont increase are wages. It looks like some of us will have to take on extra jobs to be able to continue in the sport. BRAINSTORM>>> HMMM if i cut and split three bushcords of wood that will buy my three permits and get me into shape for the oncoming season. For those of us in ontario with out land I believe a permit can be obtained from the MNR to cut dead top trees on crown land for $ 20 or less. just a thought

later Jeff

I was going to vote but there is no button for $40

Originally posted by permafrost@Sep 30 2003, 02:16 PM
BRAINSTORM>>> HMMM if i cut and split three bushcords of wood that will buy my three permits and get me into shape for the oncoming season. For those of us in ontario with out land I believe a permit can be obtained from the MNR to cut dead top trees on crown land for $ 20 or less. just a thought

later Jeff
Funny you should mention that :p

Did you watch the MCTV news last week ???

That subject was brought up Tree Poaching :0:

they had a report on tree poaching problem they have been having in the Timmins area

If you don't have a permit it can cost you dearly :sly:

Thanx for the heads up on the >$20 permit for dead head trees

Maybe Corey could set us up with a forum to sell crown wood :thumbsup: SWRules

Well Paul I can only speak about what I learned from the Executive Producer of Snowtrails TV at the AGM in Sault Ste. Marie this weekend.
They produce a television program about sledding that is broadcast on PBS in the US. They are working with us on showing all that we have to offer in Ontario. He stated that the trails in Michigan don't compare to our trail system.

He explains that in Michigan, their trails are generally 3 sled widths wide and groomed by volunteer snowmobile clubs for the most part. (There are a few spots that the DNR maintains the trails.) These clubs receive their funding from the State Government. Some of those funds come from the $20 yearly trail permit sales and the $22 bi-annual registration permits. (Every other year.) Any shortfalls are subsidized by the government. Their trails are not all connected across the entire state as ours are. They have 5,000 miles of trails. We have 36,000+ miles of trails. Ours are generally 22 feet wide on average with Top Trails having a wider standard. Our trails are *SUPPOSED* to be groomed more frequently than theirs. He's not aware of them running into any difficulties obtaining liability insurance. Not sure if the state or clubs are responsible for paying for liablity coverage.
I will email this thread to him and hopefully he'll respond to better answer your question. Maybe we can get some answers from the top level people involved in their state/provincial snowmobile organizations accross the snowbelt.

I haven't voted yet either. I would like to say $175 as my max. However realistically, as long as I can come up with the money someway, I'll continue to ride. If the early buy permit cost creeps up over $200, I would have to seriously consider getting out of this sport.
I do honestly wonder who will build and maintain the trails when those that can't afford to buy their permit any longer get out. I know if I didn't ride, I wouldn't volunteer the enormous amount of time and effort to keep our trails open.

Unfortunately, I'm also on the other side of the equation. I know how much money it takes to provide our trail system. We don't even come close to cover those costs with our trail permit fees.

Maybe if we only supported the business' (spelling?) profitting from our trail system, either directly or indirectly, that turned around and donated a portion of those profits back to our trails through the local clubs or the OFSC, we would have more funds to cover our expenses. Pretty soon the other businesses (spelling? that doesn't look right either, Hehe) would have to contribute or go back to boarding up for the winter months. I know Royal Distributing for example puts a huge amount of money into the OFSC. Just look at the advertisers listed as supporters in most OFSC literature for further examples. Check with your local clubs to see who supports them. It all adds up.

Jeff

Our trails here in Sudbury are no better then 10yrs ago,I am dead serious btw





Well Freeze i must agree with you on the condition of the trails in the Sudbury Plan. I try stay away from that area and have filed many complaints with the OFSC about the area.

Our club treasurer no longer has a sled and has not ridden that much in the past 5 yrs,but stays involved in the club

Please support her business Northern Aircool KIMPEX in Chelmsford :)

Our Groomer did not snowmobile but not sure on the new guy

Perm you got to cut your own wood first lol. :D

Originally posted by permafrost@Sep 30 2003, 02:03 PM
Paul from what I have heard is that the trails are rarely if ever groomed(DNR). I doubt this goes for all areas south of the border , but from what I have heard I think it is the majority.

perm,
i don't know and i don't like to say unless i know. the whole thing has me in a quandary.

We have hit our limit this year, we are buying one less trail permit. Higher prices=less trail permits bought. It is truly turning into a rich person's sport, instead of a family activity.

As long as we get a good amount of snow, I would pay a lot more to play. It's when the snow conditions suck and my sled sits there with a 160 or more dollar permit on it and they keep jacking the permit prices!!
Last year, due to the new baby at home, I rode 1000 miles... but it seem like more!!

Originally posted by trailblazer@Sep 30 2003, 02:35 PM
He stated that the trails in Michigan don't compare to our trail system.
Pretty true. Some are very nice but as a generalization Ontario trails are way better than what we have.

He explains that in Michigan, their trails are generally 3 sled widths wide and groomed by volunteer snowmobile clubs for the most part. (There are a few spots that the DNR maintains the trails.) These clubs receive their funding from the State Government. Some of those funds come from the $20 yearly trail permit sales and the $22 bi-annual registration permits. (Every other year.) Any shortfalls are subsidized by the government.
You should be writing a book on the subject.

Their trails are not all connected across the entire state as ours are.
Not entirely true. I believe the entire UP is connected, and most of the LP as well. But still not like CA.

Our trails are *SUPPOSED* to be groomed more frequently than theirs.
They groom pretty regularly, we just see a ton more traffic than you do. A freshly groomed trail will be torn to shreads by dusk on an average weekend day.

Since I rode in ON once last year and hope to make 2 or 3 trips this year I voted. As good as the riding is in ON I'd pay $200. But I also agree with other threads that the permit should cover a rider and not the sled (for people who have more than 1 sled). Unless you guys spend a weekend riding in MI you really won't understand how good you have it.

But in no way do I mean to disrespect the clubs here who maintain the trails. They do a great job and the UP is close the heaven (Northern ON IS Heaven), but our trails probably see a realistic 10+ times the traffic.

Well put Beerman, we do get at least 10x the traffic in the U.P. than in Ontario. Do the math, $20 in Michigan or $200 in Ontario. It sure is a treat to ride in Ontario and not see hundreds of sleds tearing up the trail. Dispite the cost I'll likely take a couple of trips again this year.

Video Mike is in our club, he rides with us several times a year to get footage for his show.

I have stated my opinion in an earlier post. Bottom line is the permit is the cheapest part of the sport. I have been in the sport now for the last 7 years and have seen improvements in our local trail system every season. Thanks to volunteers that support Old Hastings Snow Riders, Paudash Trail Blazers, Maple Leaf Snow Skimmers etc. It does get expensive when you have to buy mutiple permits for your family. I have also noticed that people that take issue with the price of the permit, also drive new trucks, trailers, flood into the dealer showrooms every season to get the latest and greatest machines. Makes me wonder. By the way I'm already doing work on the side to sumplement the cost of this great winter sport. I'm not crabbing, just willing to do more, to get more! :)

Originally posted by FlyingDutchman@Sep 30 2003, 04:50 PM
I have stated my opinion in an earlier post.* Bottom line is the permit is the cheapest part of the sport.
yes it is but how many $200.00 things can you pay for till you run out of money ?

Well, I voted that I would pay whatever it takes, but I think the price is getting really out of hand, and the ofsc is shooting itself in the foot with the perpetual price hikes. Someting needs to be done to keep costs down.

It's funny that so many complain about the quality of the trails though. I think they groom too much. In my area the trails were groomed just about every night last year. I must admit that it is really sweet to go for a ride at midnight on an absolutly freshly groomed trail, but if cost is really an issue, then I don't see the need.

I also find it funny that so many people who are happy paying big bucks for a permit to drive groomed trails are riding sleds that excel in off-trail environments, such as Revs. Aren't the whole point of these sleds bump absorbtion? Why do you even need groomed trails?

I also really don't buy the whole "a coffee a day" argument, given in another thread. What if you're already skipping on the coffee to pay for gas, skipping on the beer to pay for rent, skipping on the restaurants to buy groceries, skipping on the cigs to pay for a sled.... There's only so much you can scrip and save to come up with money for permits.

What bugs me the most is not even the permit price, but the people who seem so overjoyed at the price increase every year. I think they want people to drop out of the sport so there'll be less traffic on the trails.

I too have not yet voted as I am not sure what I would do with all my spare time if I gave this hobbie up ....lol
$160 this year ----$180 next year if we set a limit in our minds it just makes it hurt more .
The cutting wood idea is not new ...that and coon hunting how I pay for this bad habit . Yes mine is cut and put away already as well I have sold 30 cord so far and more to go ..also I spend 5 nights a week in november killing and skinning every coon I can find. ( hope there's no tree huggers on board )

Originally posted by IndySKS@Oct 1 2003, 01:39 AM
..also I spend 5 nights a week in november killing and skinning every coon I can find. ( hope there's no tree huggers on board )
Do you mean Racoons? Are they actually worth money? How much is one dead, skinned racoon worth?

can you vote after you have viewed the results ?

Obviously no one is liking the increase, but with the large number of newer sleds on the trails here in ontario, I can't see many people NOT buying a pass. If you are prepared to buy a sled worth 8,9 or 10 grand, then $200 for a pass shouldn't be an issue.

How many km are you putting on your machine? If your not riding much then it seems like alot for a pass. But if you are putting on km and are out all the time, then it doesn't seem a bad as you know you are getting your moneys worth.

Also with the price of gas where it is, it wouldn't take long to put $200 into your tank, and that would only last you a couple weekends.

I am all for lower costs on the passes. But I enjoy this sport way to much to give it up!

Just a few things to consider. I voted $200 as thats what I am willing to pay right now.

NewfieBullet : No they are not worth anything and you should collect as many as you can and send them to me for disposal ! ....Naaa I didn't think it would work either .
Yes Racoons and don't everyone start being a hide hunter ....lol Average price is something like $20 . I did not sell any last year ( still in freezer) so I'm not sure what the exact averages are. I usualy figure $14 - $18 profit. Not bad money if you can get 12- 20 a night , just a lot of hard work.

Yes paul you can vote after seeing the results I just did it . And by the look of the poll we should have set the price higher ! ........just kidding calm down ....lol

Also Paul if there is any questions you have on anything feel free to contact me at any time I will be glad to explain what I can for you.

i voted to ride without a pass as i did last winter.1 minute ride down the road to the bay.i don't have to ride on the trails if i don't want to.the bay is already better groomed by nature and no speed limits yet :D if they do post a limit,try to catch me lol... :D

powder,
is there anyone that you ride with out there ? the trail permits would have to be pretty much higher before i went without for my riding habits because i ride all over the province from my laneway. i think it is the price of a permit plus pay for one if i am caught without.

yes i know the permits are going to be too much at $195.00, but how much too much ? 20-$30.00

i think the cost of going without for me would be more then going without.

Originally posted by doo rider@Sep 30 2003, 09:06 PM
Obviously no one is liking the increase, but with the large number of newer sleds on the trails here in ontario, I can't see many people NOT buying a pass. If you are prepared to buy a sled worth 8,9 or 10 grand, then $200 for a pass shouldn't be an issue.


Once again I will bring this up

If you have a new 10 grand sled of course $200 is not much :doh:

BUT

Sled sales have dropped big time unless you have not notice

+ most sleds on the trail are 5yrs or older

Some of you people think everyone out there has a $10.000 sled and $35,000 trucks

That is surely not the case

Lot less traffic on trail over the past 4 yrs or so

WHY?

The Ironic thing is most volunteer ride older sleds :sly:

also our volunteer base is getting older and older

Originally posted by Beerman@Sep 30 2003, 04:28 PM


You should be writing a book on the subject.



I thought I had. :doh: :D :D

Sorry again for the long post. I don't post often but when I do, I can't stop.

I'll never be accused of SPAMMING. :)

Jeff

My two cents amount to this. I will buy a permit this year, I rode without last year cuzz we didn't really hit the trails much. I don't even have a job right now, and I already spent all my vacation money that I had saved to pay bills. But for something that I love, I will find a way to make it work.

I voted $200, because that is how much I am willing to pay right now if I have to. As long as my employment status improves then I will be one of those ones that pays what it takes.

I have never complained about prices, and they would have to be considerably higher before I would start. Of course I would love to see them be lower, but when I look at some of my other hobbies, one of which is currently unavailable because there is no longer insurance for the clubs and organizations, I am just glad that we can still do what we do.

Before I get too winded here, just think about what we get in comparison. 46,000Km's of trails @ $200 for full access = 43/100ths of a cent per km.

I don't know about you, but I can't complain with that.

Weasil, the vast majority of those trails would be there regardless, with or without the $200/year

Originally posted by NewfieBullet@Oct 1 2003, 07:20 AM
Weasil, the vast majority of those trails would be there regardless, with or without the $200/year
Well they might be there, but nobody would ride them, cuz they would suck.

I don't like paying more money either, but I'll concentrate my efforts on my $550/year for insurance on my sled, before I worry about $160 for a trail permit.
You want to talk about getting nothing for your money, look at the thousands I have paid for insurance without ever having a claim.

FishHog

A few freinds of mine asked me "how much do you pay for a trail pass?" I said well it went up to $160 this year before Dec 1st. They almost pooped their pants. Holy thats a lot of money. I then asked him how much they pay for a season golf pass for one course He replied with $500. So there you have it trail passes are pretty cheap. They are getting up there in price but still cheap. Just my 2 cents worth!!!!!

heh ... good point little_green :) all those poor shmucks (no bad intentions for all you golfers) who buy golf memberships have to pay EXTRA just to ride around on a powered machine when they are smacking their little white balls all over the place. Whereas we get a cheaper permit, ride more places, and do it on whatever kinda power machine we want :hallo1:

Originally posted by trailblazer+Oct 1 2003, 12:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (trailblazer @ Oct 1 2003, 12:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Beerman@Sep 30 2003, 04:28 PM


You should be writing a book on the subject.



I thought I had. :doh: :D :D

Sorry again for the long post. I don&#39;t post often but when I do, I can&#39;t stop.

I&#39;ll never be accused of SPAMMING. :)

Jeff [/b][/quote]
Don&#39;t be sorry, it was a great post, very informative.

We need to support the OFSC, what ever it takes. Without them we wouldn&#39;t have any trails at all. you make the decision if we have trails or we don&#39;t. Support the OFSC and we continue to have trails don&#39;t support them and we won&#39;t have trails.

I don&#39;t know if it was mentioned by anyone for themselfs or not but at approx. 4500 Miles of riding last year and a permit price of $160.00, Worked out to be $0.03 per mile for me :D

But I can see the people who only get 600 to 1000 miles in a season getting the short end of the stick. ???

Come on people only 42 votes ???

Are you that scared to vote ???

I guess you must be the type that won&#39;t vote tomorow on the Provincial election and let other people make your decisions ;)

BTW our MMP from Sudbury is a Liberal and he has brought forth a 50kmph speed limit for ALL LAKES in Ontario

If the Liberals win he WILL try to pass this bill,oh well I guess you guys don&#39;t care:(

So remember to find out who you are voting for &#33;!!!!

i just plunked another $175.00 vote. now that i have my OSM magazine it came in the mail today :) someone { indysks or trailblazer} that speaks to the OFSC head office tell Monica that i love her for sending me the magazine, she even wrote on the enevelope "happy trails". :inlove:

Paul, I&#39;ll be talking with her tomorrow and I will send you comments on to her.

Happy reading Paul

HMMMMMMMMMM im new here buttttttt all this money #### really suks .....I live in Toronto and just started snowmobiling last yr ......bought a new Rev 800 ho x this yr .........Golf has nothing to do with Snowmobiling period if you think about it They say Golf is for the Rich ....Many will tell you that they have a dress code the yuppies look at you funny for not having Lacoste ...Calaway or tietlelist or ping or Taylormade cloths clubs irons or the Odyssy 2 ball putter that cost 300 dollars .............well so much for the walmart clubssssss.lmao

but people are going into being broke to snowmobile they pay 3 yrs for a sled they pay for there wives .......kids ......the kids friends it all costs money lots of it ....for people living up north theres the price of gas and maybe riding there sleds to the trails wowwwwwwwwww lucky people ...then theres the people that live in the city and have to trailer there machines up north they then need trailers that cost money .......the gas to get there from toronto you can bet that will cost 100 plus even to simcoe ...well so much for the cheap cost of 50 - 75 dollars for a game of golf we snowmobilers pay more just to get there.......the golf courses are always groomed for no extra cost damn plus they serve beer.......


we do have major problems here about money our generation makes more but it costs triple what it cost 50 myrs ago to live my dad only worked and supported 5 kids and a wife and still bought a house .plus other properties on his own today you need a wife to work to make ends meet and maybe find some enjoyment somewhere ........the trails are going up but look at the way we are taxed to death we have a bigger population now get taxed for everything and get less than the government gave 20 yrs ago hmmmmmmmmm were going backwords


maybe the OFSC needs to revamp or maybe they need a watch dog so we know where all the money goes


i just feel bad for the families that need 3-4 or more sleds why cant they come up with a family plan maybe thats a thought im not mad for me but know many that this great sport will be coming to an end very soon because of passes


sorry i rambled but this whole money thing going up againnnnnnn and againnn has to stop even golfers fee&#39;s dont go up every year so why does snowmobiling passes


plus i went up tp simcoe many times last yr and the trails were not always groomed

I am gone on business till the end of Jan - beginning of Feb and I am still buying a pass this year. My wife is buying it for me to get the cheap price. :D

Originally posted by trailblazer@Sep 30 2003, 02:35 PM
Their trails are not all connected across the entire state as ours are.
Rumer has it that there is a missing link,dividing the U.P. around Chatam Mich.!!!Ontario&#39;s trails rule