i need some help on my clutching, i bought a 97xc600 with extensive engine mods. it has been bored and stroked to about 650cc. weisco pistons,ported cyl, high compression heads,triple piped after market pipes. dynoed @ about 133hp @ 8700rpm power band from 8400 to 8700. it has a goodwin performance clutch kit,i dont have the specs with me right now but the weights are ground to 49.5g. heres what happens on snow, nail the throttle and sled jupms off line great,tach runs up to 8900rpm pulls hard to 70mph then sort of takes its time to reach ninety when it used to hit 100 no problem. thats with pretty good traction. if it spins the track a lot on take off it seems to up shift to far and be in the wrong gear and not backshift even if i let off the throttle and get back on it. i seem to have to hit the brakes to try to get it to back shift. any ideas whats happening? i just read an article on the hammertime weights from super torquer and wonder if any ones used them and if they are as good as they sound or do i need to get a team roller secondary or what not. sorry for the long post,just wanted to give as much info as possible!!! JW.

My guess is that the weights are too light and that the machine should rev closer to 8000. Did you inspect the springs ? Sometimes a broken primary or secondary spring will do funky things to your machine. Also i had a similar problem with my old mx it was because the track sprokets were worn and the track was too streched and it would take forever to get to top speed.

tghe primaty seems to be in good shape but i havent looked at the secondary yet.thanks for the reply!

Did you ever monitor the secondary temperature when you had disapointing runs like you mention?

What are the helix angle[s]?

DYNAMO,i dont have any way of checking the temp of the secondary and didnt think to do so. i am at work and will check my papers to see what the angles are and post tommorrow. dont know if this info is needed or not but sled has new 1" track and only 96 picks right now. i had a shorter track with 192 picks on it but tore it up probably gassing it hard on a curb as i remember. thanks! jw

I would try tightning the sec. spring and using heavier weights.
I'm running cat but I have 57.1 g comet ac weights and I pull 8400 rpm's on my setup, stock motor just clutch and gearing changes on my ext triple. :hallo4:

your hand is all you need to check temp. is your secondary clutch dirty?

hi guys,how hot to the touch should the secondary be after a run? also dynamo asked for the helix angle , since i bought the sled used i dont rightly know. i can tell you that the clutch kit is by goodwin performance and the drive spring is a gp-red,the helix is a gp-483. and the driven spring is a gp-black. driven spring was supposed to be put in third hole. i havent pulled the secondary to clean it or check it. on the last ride last year i pulled a hime joint right out of the sleeve comming down off a jump and by the time i got it back together there was no more snow to be had!! i got pissed off and covered it till now anyway thanks for any and all help.

johnwolfe-

it almost sounds like your problem is in your secondary. i personally think you probably have some worn out buttons or bad rollers(if you have a goodwin roller sec.). that would explain the high rpm and poor backshift. the gp483 is probably a 52-34. i know the gp485 is a 52-36. the gp black sec. spring is a 48/75. like dynamo said check the temp of the sheaves. that tells alot what the primary and secondary are doing.

I WILL LOOK INTO THAT 1FOR SNOW. IM ON TWELVE HOUR NIGHTS FOR THE NEXT COUPLE DAYS BUT SHOULD GET A CHANCE TO PULL IT APART LATER IN THE WEEK. THANKS FOR THE HELP!

8700rpm
49.5g.
Comments:
*Nail throttle and sled jupms off line great
*tach runs up to 8900rpm
*Pulls hard to 70mph
*Takes time 90
*Used to hit 100 no problem.

*If it spins the track a lot on take off it seems to up shift and be in the wrong gear and not backshift even if i let off the throttle and get back on it.

I question what:
Secondary pretension is in lbs.
Secondary spring force is.
Start angle of helix is. "curious, but not really that interested now"

*I seem to have to hit the brakes to try to get it to back shift.

I question what condition belt deflection is at rest when sled is on trackstand.
When the engine is running, does the track:
1]roll slowly
2]creep
3]jerk slighty
4]does not move

I just read an article on the hammertime weights from super torquer and wonder if any ones used them and if they are as good as they sound or do i need to get a team roller secondary or what not.

Stop, stop stop stopstopstop!!!!!! What not?...I can recommend "What not to do!"
*wagging finger...* Don't be going spending hard earned cash on something where all you might have to do is just simply check details of system and "learn something"

to add one more comment...
Wishy washy rpms like you mention can be from all the details I mention above...OR, you can have good details like I mention and have wishy washy rpms...
...simply from dented rollers. If you have a roller secondary
I have dented a few rollers before....heh.
Dented roller will skid and cause rpms to raise over acceleration, then when a bump or heavier snow comes into play, the rpms will drop from the secondary "hanging" in one point in the shift range. So you have to slow down a lot and/or use the brake to help backshift, then accelerate again.
Cracked rollers on the side of the roller will cause same wishy~washy rpms as the roller compress' like a flat tire.

D.J. when on stand track does not move untill whacking throttle,engagement is close to 5000rpm. no creep or jerking motion. the wholeshot is excellent. i do not have a roller secondary but the symptom you described about hitting heavier snow and rpms dropping is correct ,thats when it feels as if its in the wrong gear. letting off the throttle and pinning it again just doesnt help much because it doesnt seem to backshift untill i really slow down. the belt sits the right height in the secondary when stopped if thats what you mean by belt deflection. someone mentioned that the buttons could be shot so i will pull the secondary apart and have a look in the next day or two.

[/QUOTE]how hot to the touch should the secondary be after a run?[quote]
you should be able to keep your hand on it.

THANKS TIFA!

I hope im not being Crass here, but I pull a snippit from my clutch kit manual for the 800 Doo....I edit it a little bit.


The Secondary Temperature test:
...Go out and do some trial runs with your 8xx xxxx/xxx with the stock clutch configuration.
Be a little bit harder on it than you usually care to be.
Get on the fuel and get off...back on again and work the sled.
I mean go FLOG THE $#%& out of your sled.
Have a purpose..."Im gonna get those clutches HOT!"
How long you performed this trial run??? 1 minute? 3 minutes? 6 minutes?
...Write the details down.
Stop the sled, pop hood and stick your hand IN the secondary clutch.

****Put the palm of your hand right on the sheave face that the belt touches and count how long you can hold your hand on it. count the seconds and try to be accurate.****

What is the primary sheave temp to touch?

I would like to see the trial performed if you can quickly go and run the sled up to 90+mph and immediately brake to stop, or bring your sled up to as fast as your sled will go...
...Grab the brake real hard...pop hood measure sheave face temp.

I beg you to use a notepad/pen[cil] when you make your measurement/comments.
You will find that you may take more data than you want....which is good.
When you have a conversation of this test, your memory will be vivid and conversation more lucid.

The temperature is the clutch telling the tuner that the system is not being efficient. The warmer temperature is a result of the belt slipping through the secondary sheaves.

The non-destructive testing portion of my job, I have to take temp readings on industrial motors. I used a laser temp gun to measure. I went around and so called "calibrated" my hand touch in "seconds" to the motor temps.
The other two guys in my job use the touch method also and find it quite accurate.

Touching hand on metal:
130 deg F = 5 seconds or more
140 deg F = 4 seconds to "ouch"
150 deg F = 2 seconds to "ouch"
160 deg F = 1 second to BLISTER!

>>>With a good 800 kit, you should be able to have temps regularly of less than 140 deg F.
The lower the temperature, the better the ablity for the secondary sheaves to grip the belt. Friction is improved.
I have measured temperatures as high at 170+ degrees using an infrared thermometer on the stock clutch details in exersizes we mention here.

Here is another page from my manual...I have had arguements about this procedure, but when I perform this and set the details as such, this is one area then you never have to worry about..."with a roller secondary."
With a button secondary if the buttons are left too long and wore down, then the deflection will increase as the sheaves will be slightly further apart from each other at rest.

When I work on Stock or Modified sleds, I take care of details in this order....

1] Secondary Belt Height:
I like to have the chord of the belt showing on the outer dia of the secondary.
*Why?* Well, if you look at the actual belt travel...The distance the belt
travels towards the center from the clutch being closed to fully open, the
belt travels only 1.25 inches approximately.
So to think of it, if you have the capacity to go from 0mph to 100mph...The
belt only travels that range of 1.25" in 100mph at 1:1 ratio.
So, would you not think that you would rather have approx 2mm of belt
showing on secondary? 2mm=.080"
Now you have ~1.30" to 1.33" of travel instead of ~1.25"

Benefits are;
1] That is 10% more belt movement from the engagement to top end.
2] Extra time the belt can spend in the lowest ratio possible in the first 100 feet when you gas on it.

2] Best Belt Deflection = Track Movement:
Lift the sled onto track stand.
Start the sled.
Warm the engine up.
Burp the engine to turn the track.
Get the track nice and limber.
Get the "cold" outta the track and loosen it up.

When the sled is on a track stand and the engine started and idling; The track should:
1] Creep slowly
or
2] Turn with jerking movements
or
3] Track is still, but you are able to move it with by pinching a paddle with index finger and thumb then pull the track around fairly easy.

You should now already have proper belt height on secondary. You must get the right belt deflection.
If you cannot get this kind of deflection...get longer Drive belt.
Be satisfied with that belt then. When buying a belt, take a "Seamstress" measure tape with you and measure the belts.
If a parts person gives you a hard time over it...Tell him "Go to hell, It's your money!"

The results are very important. You will be quite happy in the end. Your sled will never bog with these conditions.

Umm....You have found that your track moves on the stand at idle....Great.
As long as your track moves or needs just a bit of coaxing with two
fingers....You have great belt deflection.

Effects of Improper Belt deflection:
Too TIGHT of deflection:
1]Burns the belt cogs when sitting near engagement.
2]Increases Torque at holeshot, but Hi-end mph is down.

Too LOOSE of deflection:
1]Bad holeshot, possibly bog.
2]Slow In midrange
3]Possible higher mph in midrange only if engine does not pull off peak[Old
speed run trick]
4]Engine pulls down out near big end.
Note: High engagement will eliminate bog, but acceleration deteriorates
quickly by 2/3 track distance then engine may fall low of peak, laying down in rpm way out there.

Belt clearance:
Prefer to have .025" to .030" on the primary.
Tight belt clearance lets the tuner have better control of engine flashing thru the clutches.
Tight is good for belts and will let them last a long "consistant" life.

dj,tifa and all who have lended an ear, i got some time today to pull apart the secondary..... :( it is utterly shot!! the buttons must have been just about gone when i bought the sled cus they are wasted along with the supporting metal which in turn destroyed the helix .... everything is galled to hell. had a time of it just trying to get the helix to come out!! obviously when i initially saw the drop in top end i should have investigated it imediately, my own dam fault for being lazy!!! well i was interested in the roller secondarys,looks like ill now spend some hard earned cash!!! there is a bunch of different makers, any body know the best value. id would rather spend a little more and get a quality unit if theres much differance between makers!! dj thanks for the hand temp readings ill be sure to use them when tuning when this thing is ready!!!

if you want stock try EBAY. ive baught sooooo much crap off ebay. and it was all dirt cheap. glad you got it figured out.

thanks,ive kind of got it in my head to get a roller but money is hard to come by lately!

Can you take a pic of your sliding sheave "inside the button cavity" and post it?

Vendor warning...
Probably regardless of the shape, you can go an economical route of having the sheave 1/2 machined at Goodwin.
You clean up the sheave, send it off to them and they will turn out the inside, index and install the pins/rollers.
$209 U.S.
end vendor warning

Why I like the stock secondary sheave is for future economical value. I think one gets a Great Return On Investment because helix's are cheap if you buy used. Swap meets are fantastic...Some ACat secondary springs fit even though they are snug, Ski-Doo springs fit... Tuners will lend helix's, trade and all that stuff.
Im never afraid to ask because the guy who owns the cam wants to know how it will work also. OEM is so common everywhere.

Am I trying to talk you into reconditioning your secondary?....
...uhhh, YUP!

johnwolfe-

you have a couple of options for the secondaries. it all depends on how much $$$ you want to save. the team roller is supposed to be the "cat's meow" for roller secondaries. or you could just do what tifa said and look on ebay. you could get a replacement button secondary for cheap and then put good aftermarket buttons in. that would be your cheapest route. i myself have had pretty good luck with the goodwin roller(some people have not). they just need maintenance(500 miles). you need to keep the rollers clean. belt dust tends to collect and binds the rollers. also depending on conditions require a tighter tension spring. when riding on hardpack your helix and gp black should be fine. but when riding in deeper or looser snow, i use a epi orange or epi white seem to work good. for some reason the deeper snow tends to lower the rpm. so the tighter spring will bring the rpm back where you should be.you will be amazed at how well it backshifts over the stock button, though i have never tried the team roller.

unfortunately i do not have a digital camera,but my nephew does. ill try to get him to put them on as im kinda computer illiterate... all in all i learned a lot from the replys you guys put out!!!! i think this thread is going to help more people than just me ,thanks for being cool enough to share the techy info!!