Hi guys, need some advice here from all you guru's on fuel.

The question I have is would it be possible to run Esso 100 low lead aviation fuel in my 2003 REV 440 with the high compression heads. I know that it is a more refined fuel that normal pump fuel (not sure about race fuel) and the lead is for an anti-detonation and lubrication........but I was wondering if it would be okay to race with this stuff. Would love to hear your ideas!!!

skidoo175: I used it back in the late eighties in a 521 with a 15-1 head and had no problems. Dino

100LL (which contains blue die) has the same knock rating as the regular 100 Avgas (which contains green die). Both have 100 octane (R&M) rating in lean conditions and 130 octane (R&M) rating in rich conditions. Needless to say, its safe to burn with your 15:1 heads. The only difference is 100LL just has lower quantities of TEL (lead).

This stuff is a lot cheaper the race gas.

You'll be FAR better off running fuel that is distilled to be run in two stroke race engines. Av gas is formulated for 4 stroke air-cooled engines running at around 3200 RPM at high elevations (like REALLY high!).


Check with some of the experts on fuel for MX bikes -- they seem to be more advanced in their thinking than many sled guys are.

Where is the highest load placed on the engine??? At take off at normal elevations...

IMO AvGas is just fine to use...Real world testing back to back in the same engines showed no perceptible difference other than less of a hit on the wallet....

One thing about AV GAS is it is very constant and high in quality, don't want airplanes dead sticking with seised engines. When I oval raced I used turbo blue, when I experamented with my sled engines I used 100 LL, both worked good, both a waist of money in my stock 600 triple (I use 87 octane). :cool:

Gasoline Man, how much lead does LL have in it? I ask because the used oil come out of aiplanes, it's silver grey and saturated with lead, as well as the parts inside being coated with it. I quit using it because I didn't want to breathe the stuff.

Sorry for the delayed response Hillpounder - I didn't catch this one.

In all my years of racing, I've never had a problem with 100LL avgas. It does have quite a high amount TEL compared to "unleaded pump gas". Heres some facts:

LEAD CONTENT

Lead content in grams of lead per gallon:

100LL = 2
Regular Auto Fuel = 0.1
Unleaded (Premium or Regular) = .001

Just don't drink the stuff. Be carful when you're cifening this fuel! Wash your hands thoroughly and regularly with orange hand cleaner after handling. You know? The regular handling precautions. I treat expensive race gas the same way.

Come to think of it, this may explain my short term memory loss? I guess it wasn't my lead tooth fillings after all. LOL....

ok,but in my t-cat I run 12.8to1 whit 92 octane if I take 100ll (cesna gas) how much compression ratio can I have... for safe

Look at it this way, I can run 100LL premixed in my 2004 REV 440 in rich burn conditions. No problems. She has 15.5:1 heads with 170 psi with a warm engine. I can also run it in a 2003 REV 440 that has 14:1 heads with 150 psi with a warm engine in accurate to lean burn conditions.....

ok, some guy in my area test 100ll octane and go whit 15to1 ratio compression safe!!! this gas are very good gas and one of my friend near my house have helicopter robinson R44 whit big gas tank of 100ll...!!!!but for more safe I stop my ratio compression to 14.5to1!

It sounds like you know what your doing....

I've always been cautious about reading plugs when burning avgas. This sounds far fetched but, Ive heard avgas burns the plugs white at optimum burn conditions. But, Ive never been able to confirm this with anyone! Though I have seen gray / brown plugs when the EGT is only at 1100 / 1200 F (Maybe it was just the timming on that sled?!?). I've also noticed while racing you can burn avgas in lean burn condition for alot longer then you can with regular gas or even race gas for that matter before you squeek the motor.

If anyone has any insite on this or wants to confirm or defunk the above comments, please share it with us.

I too have found very difficult reading plugs when running C14 in my T-Cat. I also find with synthetic oil it may compound this problem further. Over this past season previous to jacking compression I set up jetting and engine temps with a digatron. I relied on digatron two season ago with temps in range where I wanted them and never had a problem until I was setting up my Bro in laws 1010 performing jetting and plug checks, wow did I think I was lean yet digatron reading low but with a new engine I wanted to be sure. I then went and ran mine and pulled plugs and nearly passed out, races starting in a couple of hours ripped the carbs off jetted couple of sizes up and ran again temps went way down sled ran poor yet plugs were whiteish. I then after over coming fear and knowing I have never had a problem with EGT readings previous to this day started jetting dowm again and bought temps up ran the races finished two 1st,2nd and 3rd in four classes I entered. What a day in the beginning stress,stress. I checked with a lot of people that day couldn't get a really good answer out of really anyone and then I ended up calling different buisnesses in the USA and one said as you did that when burning at or around optimin plugs will actually be white-grey.

for the color of the plugs, my old 94 storm run whit c14 burn alot of piston and the plugs always gray and for the compression ratio you can go to 15-1 whit 100ll but stock timing!!! in my case I go to 13-5to1 whit 2 degree key not more because too much compression= lower in top speed and same for the timing...after some test I thing the best ratio for trail race and top speed is between 13 to 13.7to 1 (for my opinion)

I have little to no experience burning C14, but I'm not crazy about C12 as it has the effect of burning rich.

I have asked this question on lean burn avgas to many folks without much of a explanation. But the most reasonable explanation I've heard to date has been the difference in specific gravity of avgas compared to race or pump gas. Avgas is less dense than most racing gasolines. Instead of weighing about 6.1 to 6.3 pounds per gallon like racing gasoline, it weighs 5.8 to 5.9 pounds per gallon. This explains why racer jet a few sizes richer when running avgas. But, It still freaks me out to see gray / brown plugs with low EGT readings. My only other explanation is that it also has a different BTU then pump has.

All I know is that it works and the higher octane keeps me from detonation, regardless of how hot or fast the flame is....

Well guys, I ran it for the whole snowcross season and did not have any problems. My last weekend of racing and I was jetted down to 240-250 mains with 45 pilots in my 2003 REV 440. Air temp. was approx. 5 deg. C. Plugs were a nice white/light tan brown color, almost no buildup on them at all. Will be doing a compression check soon to see what it is like, maybe even pull the heads off to see how pistons are. Will keep you updated!!!

Originally posted by Gasoline Man@May 7 2004, 03:29 PM
I have little to no experience burning C14, but I'm not crazy about C12 as it has the effect of burning rich.

I have asked this question on lean burn avgas to many folks without much of a explanation. But the most reasonable explanation I've heard to date has been the difference in specific gravity of avgas compared to race or pump gas. Avgas is less dense than most racing gasolines. Instead of weighing about 6.1 to 6.3 pounds per gallon like racing gasoline, it weighs 5.8 to 5.9 pounds per gallon. This explains why racer jet a few sizes richer when running avgas. But, It still freaks me out to see gray / brown plugs with low EGT readings. My only other explanation is that it also has a different BTU then pump has.

All I know is that it works and the higher octane keeps me from detonation, regardless of how hot or fast the flame is....
low egt readings with leaded fuel is a norm.the reason lead is even in gas is lubrication and cooling.you can be spot on with your jetting and still have a reduction in temps,this also applies to unleaded high octane race gas,it is more refined for higher compression,etc thus designed to actually help lower combustion chamber temp so as to avoid detonation, burndown etc.as for the differant coloring on the plugs you have to get used to how leaded fuel colors them it is totally diff.also the reason you usually have to jet up with leaded fuel is because the lead actually displaces some of the gas (# for # less actual fuel getting into the cyl) resulting in a leaner condition.

Thanks Mach Z1! I've never really factored in the TEL content into the equation. Makes sense to me. Perhaps it's a combinations of all these factors that contribute to it's burn characteristics.

Thanks for the insight.

Originally posted by hillpounder@Jan 10 2004, 07:07 PM
I quit using it because I didn't want to breathe the stuff.


As long as you stay out front you don't have to.

I've seen this same topic debated on on MX forums too and with a few exceptions it seems like everyone thinks it's OK to run avgas (regular or LL) as long as it meets your octane requirements...

Your better off running the race fuel. The 100LL has more lead in it than your regular pump fuel.

How about Cam 2 110 octain leaded racing fuel. Will it mess with my plug reads? Will it help prevent a possible lean condition burn down?

Anyone have any experience with it?

I buy it in southern NH

Originally posted by sammydogs64@Sep 14 2004, 09:36 PM
How about Cam 2 110 octain leaded racing fuel.* Will it mess with my plug reads?* Will it help prevent a possible lean condition burn down?

Anyone have any experience with it?

I buy it in southern NH
345229

alot depends on amount of lead.might help somewhat with lean burn, but has more to do with helping the engine run cooler, probably will burn a little differant on your plugs.

Originally posted by dajetfixx@Aug 28 2004, 12:48 PM
Your better off running the race fuel. The 100LL has more lead in it than your regular pump fuel.
341943


Where did that come from? :dazed: Regular pump fuel still has .1g of TEL in it per gallon. Even race fuel has 4 X the amount of TEL then regular pump gas. Sure you can find unleaded race fuel but, why bother when you can run LEADED race gas that keeps your engine cooler and lubed? So why are we better off running race gas again? Please explain? :sly:

I know this is a way old thread, but I am thinking on running 100LL in my 1995 vmax 800, andam wondering were this can be bought (which airports will sell this?)