In 1989

Our 1st trail permit was $35 and it was an OFSC permit to ride all of Ontario(though we never have)

The insurance for our Safari was $67 :)

Average 2000kms a year

We had grass drags/snow drags/Ice drags/funruns/family days etc

2003

I bought a trails permit for $160

The same insurance on my 95 STX 583 is $188 :)

average 2000kms a year

Today we have nothing but the Snowarama(great event imo)

We have less trails to ride around here-fact

trails have barely improved

I and 90% of buddies ride the Sudbury area only

Why should we pay for the TO rich *** that travels all of over Ontario and could care less about pising $$$ away The OFSC should look after locals NOT tourist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AMEN...you forgot to add that it was only around $25 to register your sled with the ministry, and that was good forever (yeah right), not for just 1 year

We had grass drags/snow drags/Ice drags/funruns/family days etc

Maybe you don't have these events because your local club can't get insurance. Or the the same people that were called upon to put on these events year after year stopped volunteering.

Why should we pay for the TO rich *** that travels all of over Onatrio and could care less about pising $$$ away

Maybe those of us that live south of the French River stay down here. I wonder how the businesses in northern Ontario that welcome snowmobilers would feel about that? I don't like some of the things that the OFSC does either. What can the average sledder do? I don't know.

Not everyone has a $35,000 truck and trailer and $10,000 sleds

What does that have to do w/ anything?

as you can see this is why I and many others feel ripped off and are leaving the sport(btw I will never leave* :p* )

Then why have you brought up this topic twice in 2 days?

The OFSC should look after locals NOT tourist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh a 2 tier permit system.

How about reduced prices for retirees?

I have been snowmobiling since '69 & have had my own snowmobile since '81. Yes a lot of things in our sport have changed. Some good, some bad.

Maybe you should bring some of your points to your local club or OFSC rep.

Maybe you should get involved w/ your local club & try to change things.

ouch, that is hurting inflation! seems the sport is squeezing out the little guy...to make way for the big $$....this is my first year really sledding (always had sleds, but never rode much or bought a permit) so i picked up a cheap sled, but all this other stuff, the insurance, fees licensing and trail permits have probably added up up to more than the sled itself, and i havn't even been riding yet..that just doesn't seem right...oh well, what are we gonna do, lynch all the insurance companies?? seems nowadays (well these are the only days i know, i'm not old enough to know any others) anything fun costs money...so either you sit at home, or you cough up the pennies...nobody likes it...but you can't put a price on fun!!

Freezerburnt, ever here of valium! relax dude. Do you think only trail prices have been subject to inflation since 89. WAKE UP! Then you say OFSC should take care of locals only, again, WAKE UP! Obviously you care very little for anything outside your little box. I am quite sure 99% of businesses in the trail districts love guys like me when I come in my not $35000 truck but $50000 truck and spend $1000-1500 in a few days in there communites where probably half your relatives work. You think so backwards it's comical. Leave it to people like you and America would never have been discovered! Nothing personal, but you have no vision outside of your own little world. I guess all hotels and such should just close there doors because you don't want to spend $165.00 LMAO

Well,I got a 6600.00 sled,a 8500.00 atv and a 4,500.00 truck!!LOL!!At my age I want to have as much fun as I can while I can still enjoy it!! :p At least my priorities are in order :thumbsup: Merry Christmas!!

Dave you brought a good subject

Businesses ah

What do they do?

Do they give money to the trail systems :cussing:

Most don't :cussing:

I could careless about those business that don't not give more back instead they rake it in

The trail system where set up for local sledders NOT for business to make money




If they were those business would bend over backwards to help pay for maintenance of trails

Revrend(kris)

The $35000 truck and is the excuse that some use,as you might have read one of those tuting that horn just responded

So Dave I should forget about having fun sledding with friends because you are willing to throw money out of the window?

BTW how long have you been a sledder?

I am just curious

Yes I am in a pissy mood our snow is melting :p

there was a time when we had to work all day for a gallon of gasoline. that has changed too.

I love ya Paul:p

Well, if you don't cater to people who ride distances (your T.O. rich), you will lose any government funding, northern development etc. They do not get involved so we can ride, they don't give a damn about our sport. They get involved to create jobs in the north, and this requires tourism.
I live in the Orillia area and enjoy being able to ride from my front door, but also like to see other areas of the province.
Freezerburnt, I have read several of your posts and can safely say that I now know your point of view. It's just that not everyone shares that point of view. The OFSC has the daunting task of appealing to a very broad section of the population. People like me, people like you and also folks from the city. You are making it sound like the federation is going against the wishes of all it's members by raising permit prices and that is not true.

Freezerburnt - In 1988 my local club paid $600 a year for liability insurance. The thought of a member actually suing the volunteers for making trails never crossed our mind. Today the OFSC pays $4 mil for 260 clubs. Do the math. The problem is law suits and the cost of insurance. My club has now been sued for things we never did wrong. The volunteers are getting scared off. The problem isn't permits, its snowmobilers who are driving us out of business by suing us. If you want to get mad, target the people who sue clubs, not the OFSC clubs. It's not our fault.

You Canucks are some of the nicest people I've ever met while traveling, fishing, and sledding and you've got by far the best trails and maintenance I've ever seen so I don't see why you're complaining about the trail fees - you're very fortunate to have such great trails and cool people to socialize with.
I'm not very bright, but it seems like the root of the problems with the fees you guys talk about is litigation and therefore insurance.
Does anyone know what percentage of the lawsuits filed are profitable for the lawyers and plaintiffs?
Probably a stupid idea but couldn't the OFSC earmark some funds for retaining a legal entity to countersue all of the plaintiffs.
If a majority of the suits on record are thrown out or produce little gain for the suing party wouldn't it be worth it to fight fire with fire? If ambulance chasers knew that they were going to get countersued by the OFSC for frivolous lawsuits (or whatever the term is) would they be a lot less likely to bring suit and therefore decrease the liability costs and ultimately the cost of insurance?
Maybe a bit less maintenance on the trails for a few years would be worth showing the trial lawyers that if they want to mess with the bull they're going to get the horns too.
If you could show the Insurance companies a decrease in liability costs maybe it would decrease rates (but seriously).

Freezerburnt move to illinois my registration is 12.00 for two years , no trail pemits, free,nada dime , you get what you pay for !!!! Or save your money buy a compuond and go roundy roundy in your little world .

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Dec 10 2003, 07:40 PM
Businesses ah
What do they do?
Do they give money to the trail systems
Most don't
I could careless about those business that don't not give more back instead they rake it in
The trail system where set up for local sledders NOT for business to make money
If they were those business would bend over backwards to help pay for maintenance of trails




I would like to disagree with these statements ,
I have been to many places in Northern Ontario where the people that operate the local Club are also the local business owners . Tourists and other riders are their lively hood during the winter months .

I also know of several areas that ask the local businesses to donate some money each year to keep up the trails .

What about advertising on maps ...is this not financial support.

Or advertising signs on the trails ...many businesses pay to have them put there .

Nothing is ever the same anywhere across this Province but don't go saying MOST businesses DO NOT support the trails , in fact I would say just the opposite.

Ok freezer, you make some good points, I'll grant you that, some I agree with. I posted maybe too quickly, but, I am very objective about things.

What do they do?

Do they give money to the trail systems*

Most don't*

I could careless about those business that don't not give more back instead they rake it in

The trail system where set up for local sledders NOT for business to make money

Good point, but look at any major venue of any type, and do businesses give back, rarely. The economic spin off for the area enriches that community whether you'll admit it or not, it's true, believe it. Thats probably how every town and city was founded, think about it.

The $35000 truck and is the excuse that some use,as you might have read one of those tuting that horn just responded

It's OK, you can use my name. Does the fact that I can afford to spend some money irritate you, that I wanna ride on the trails. Whats your point in this anyways. Is it that the OFSC charges $165.00 for the permit because you can afford a nice truck (BTW, it's just a lease, I'd never pay that MUCH :D ) Do you think they track what snowmobilers incomes are????

So Dave I should forget about having fun sledding with friends because you are willing to throw money out of the window?

I think you should do what you want Freezer, (emphasis on FREE :lol: ) Listen, the $165.00 isn't throwing money out the window. It allows me to ride on the best trail system in the world. It's you that doesn't like the fee. You said in an earlier post about the T.O. money bags ruining it for you. Imagine if there were no crazy money guys supporting your sport. If 10,000 SUV driving city boys dropped snowmobiling, do you think your fees would go up? HMMMM What about business spinoffs.

BTW how long have you been a sledder?

I am just curious

Oww, that really hurts, how clever. I'm not a sledder because I haven't rode yet, so I guess you can disregard all my earlier posts, sorry, was just pretending to have an opinion. Not having been involved or knowing the history of the OFSC and the sledding public does make me rather objective though. Just my opinion Freez, remember, I posted earlier that all the guys working on the trails voluntarily should get free permits. I don't think it's fair volunteers would pay same as me if I don't help out, sorry to be so looong winded.

You know I thought that the permit price was way to high, then I became a director at our local club (my dad always said if you are going to complain then get involved and do something about it), did I ever get my eyes opened. If you look at the figures over the past few years the OFSC is almost bankrupt, trust me it's no cash cow!! I often ask myself why do it? Buy a permit and ride the trails (LOL) There wouldn't be any trails. I rebuilt a groomer for the club and donated all labour, and shop time and material. Someone comes on and complains about $160.00, I purchased a permit for $160.00 + $650.00 (groomer rebuild) + volenteer time as a director. AM I STUPID OR WHAT????????? I believe if you work for it you do what makes you happy, I like to snowmobile. I would buy a permit if it was $500.00, I earned it and I can spend it how I want.

Freezer you are WRONG and if all sledders looked at the sport the way you do we would be back in 1964 where there were no trails and you just went out in the bush and cut your own. I know thats when I started.

Use some of your aggression positively go join your club and make changes.
I bet you would make that club a lot better. You seem to have the Balls to make things happen. :D
Jerry

Based on my earlier comment in the forum, I didn't think that this would turn in quite the discussion and I see now I acted hastily.

I do agree that I don't like rising cost in anything either. But as said by BCthetwo, with all the lawsuits and crap going on and with the general cost of living rising, it is to be expected. I don't agree with the part about keeping tourists from sledding in ontario. That has to be the bread and butter of most of the locals running motels, B&B, etc in the north.

Freeer, if I calculate right, you spent $348 on trail pass and insurance. Not too bad for a season. Now based on the price of gas, and 2000km I would figure around $400-$500 a year. Why is that not driving your fury.

If sledding was just for the locals in your area. what sort of grooming would get done? Maybe a railway tie with some chains through it being towed by a sled. Or based on the cost of a groomer and gas, maybe none.

What does the cost of a $35000 truck and a $10000 sled have to do with it. I have both, but I assure you that I spend more on insurance and gas than you.

What it all boils down to is how much are you willing to spend to do something that you thoroughly enjoy.


Its hard to put a price on some things.

All you do is ##### about the cost of sledding, ofsc permits, etc. OK we got your point and we don't want to hear about it every other day. Sure everything is more expensive, but you are about the only one on this forum that continually complains about the cost of sledding. We all think it's expensive and sure we all would like it to be cheaper but.... its not. get over it. you are like a broken record.

I would personaly like too thank the rich TO ###, for if it weren't for you guys snowmobiling would be doomed for sure. :thumbsup:

I'm by far not a rich man, but when it comes too snowmobiling money is not an object, :cussing: its the most expensive sport I know of.

Really woundn't bother me if trail passes were $300 a year( less traffic, fewer insurance scams, less riff-raff on the trail)

I hear knitting is a cheap sport to get involved in :lol:

I'm in Northern Ontario (Manitouwadge) and yes permits are more $$ these days but so are the costs of maintaining the trails... It's called inflation. We happen to love :inlove: our tourists (if they have nice trucks/trailer/sleds it's probably cause they've worked hard to get them). You really need to take your sled out for a good long ride and relax a bit... Although that might be hard with the rain Sudbury's been getting (*sigh*) you can always come up here and ride, we have plenty of snow and we welcome everyone :)

Ride safe.

I agree with freezer to a point.Everything goes up in price and there's little that can be done about that. I am not going to take shots at any sledder for their opinion.We are all in this expensive game together.Instead of looking back,we need to start looking at the future.If enough riders drop out,the remainder will have to overcome the revenue loss.At what point will a permit be out of reach for the majority?Should we close trails to save maintenence dollars?Do we actually need 40,000+ km's of groomed trail in Ontario?Do we groom too often?Most of us have machines with long travel suspensions that are never set up properly because we barely ride rough trail anymore. Do we as users hold the OFSC re
responsible for their actions?These and alot more questions will have to be adressed someday soon.WE are responsible for the cost of permit.WE wanted smooth trails and we got them(at a cost)WE wanted lots of trails and we got them(at a cost)WE wanted an organization to look after management of club resources and we got it(at a cost).Unless we are willing to cut something eventually,we are going to pay almost double in the next 10 years. :dazed: :huh: :ohmy:

:withstupid:


excellant points guys.
Lets look to the future and talk about what can be done to make the necessary changes

Well i sat on the side lines and have read all the post sooo. here what i think.
I have heard everything from the cost is way to much, to it is an expensive sport and knitting is cheaper.

well, i don't think that just because u or i make 60,000 to 70,000/ year that it means "the less fortunate" shouldn't be able to use them as well.

i think they should post a price geared to your income.
If this was done then everyone involved will have at least contributed what they could to the trails and the trails passes would sell alot better.

Even if it was 60.00 to some one. it is still 60.00.
there are larger groups of less fortunates, students, and elderly people that can't afford 165.00 but could cough up some of it.
Should they be cast aside for there situation "NO", the economy is not what it was in the 70's, and good paying jobs are not abundant in Canada.

think about it.

We are in canada and the taxes that i pay sure as hell aren't being spent on roads or the military. where is it going.
every year i hear we will sending millions to this third world country that third world country.
WELL what about the tax payer in this country.
We have home less we have poverty but we can send money abroad like it was toilet paper.
Its time to think about everyone not just number 1.

sorry for the rambling but to say if u can't afford it well to bad just doesn't cut it for me.

Merry Christmas :)

Blah blah blah, its bigger and better than 1989 now. Buy where you ride, its the best thing you can doo for your self.

The only problem with what you are saying SKI-DOOD is that the permit cost is a minor cost compared to the gas, oil, insurance, cost of repairs, and the initial cost of the sled.

So even if an income geared permit cost was in effect. It is minor compared to the rest of the costs.

And to be honest, if I was in the higher income bracket I would get a bit perturbed if I was paying more than someone else for using the exact same trails, just because I made more money than them.

I see it to a limit, i make 72,000 a year but alot of my friends work roofing jobs in the area. Come winter they can't afford to pay full price. i wouldn't feel bad at all if he paid less.
As for gas and insurance well, they are not running 99's or 2004 sleds and plpd is cheap for them.
they just can't aqfford the full price of the pass. Isn't it better to get something then nothing. Kind of like Mcdonalds. u make a few cents off one but add them up and dollars soon follow.

As for alscools comments, well who cares he is one person who thinks the world revolves around him by the sounds of the comment,if that is what it can be called. u know the type no one give a #### about.l

Here's another way to look @ the cost of a permit. $160/52= $3.07 a week

I can see that the snowmobiling prices have gone up since 89..... but hasn't everything you buy doubled in price since then? We bought a 90 chevy pickup, top of the line and I think it was 21,000. Now if you buy a top of the line Chevy your lucky if you can get it for less then 40,000. Same with snowmobiles, they have gone way up in price. Your also getting more then you did in 89.

Having the permit price reflect the income level of the purchaser is similar to having the permit price based on the average weeks of riding in your area, I can't see it working. It is like saying that an individual should pay $160.00, but the family down the road which has four sleds gets a family discount because four permits cost too much for one household. A machine across the trail is a machine across the trail, the trail maintenence costs money it doesn't matter how much the driver of the sled earns per year or the number of sleds in the household. I don't make a large income but I work two jobs to support my toys while the next guy goes home at night and lays on the couch, then he pays less for the permit, I don't think so. Fair is fair, if you want to ride the trail you pay the price.

You choose the sport you enjoy. Unfortunately for everybody....no sport is cheap.

How much is a round of golf? Or heaven forbid, a membership?!?

Hockey for your kids? Or watching a live NHL game?

The price of the permit is the cost of enjoying the sport you chose.
As for insurance, how much has vehicle insurance gone up since 1989?

Let's stop dwelling on the way it was....deal with the way it is....find some snow and remember why it's worth the cost of admission! :)

the only thing that bothers me is that it feels like everyone has their hands in my pockets. :cussing: it's not just the permit price,it's insurance,oil,gas,loan payment,car payment,utilities,christmas presents,sled maintenance..........it's just a bad time of year to put out another 160 bucks.but i will and shut my mouth now.................. SWRules

Originally posted by revrnd@Dec 11 2003, 10:04 PM
Here's another way to look @ the cost of a permit. $160/52= $3.07 a week
Here's another way to look at it. 3.07 x 52 = food for a family of 2 or 3 for a week.
so because they had to use it else where to support a family the high and mighty say to bad?
Where's the " snowmobilers need to stick together to fight the greenies or the world all of the sudden" attitude.
I will never buy a permit and don't need to, too use the trails.
look in the back of the new hunting and fishing booklet on the trail and permit laws.
Status indians do not need permits to use the trail system.
See u on the trails, with out a permit of coarse.

As for the 165.00 well i say the goverment can stick it where the sun don't shine.

I find it strange that the people here say one minute insurance is insane, whine about it for months then say well its a rich mans sport and if u can't afford it (a pass) then knitting is an option.
SOOO from the looks of the whining in the insurance rate pinned topic, i guess the price of wool should be at an all time high.

If anyone can afford to buy a sled, (which is only used a few months of the year) purchase gas, oil and everything else that goes with the sport but simply cannot fork up the trail pass then you need a lot more help than a reduced permit fee.

Gotta get the priorities straight or you will never get anywhere in life except knowing everything there is about credit and being jealous of others who worked hard and have something to show for it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("SKI DOOD")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As for alscools comments, well who cares he is one person who thinks the world revolves around him by the sounds of the comment,if that is what it can be called. u know the type no one give a #### about.[/b][/quote]

Look who calling the kettle black DOOD :huh: No pass for you? You allude to not needing a pass but can easily afford one by your own volition of income. If 50% of sledders had your attitude there would be no trail system. Whats up with that????

Dave

You asked if the OFSC tracks the incomes of sledders

Yes they do :)

Sorry Dave I did not know you were new to the sport :)

Guys guys i know I sound like a broken record :dazed:

like I said I buy a permit each year and will buyone for the next 50yrs

My point is we are losing many riders that have been involed in this sport for yrs,these are some of our volunteers

Sure some are saying new sledders are filling the void(though permits sales continue to drop)most new snowmobilers just wanna ride and not volunteer(yes some do volunteers)but most don&#39;t

Having a permit based on income is a BAD idea justlike free permits for volunteers as it would be open to abuse unfortunately

SD_Sledhead :)

:( Unfortunalety we had more trails in 89 and they have improved marginally but this is the Sudbury area I know it might be diferent in other areas :)

why do we need super highways to ride on anyways?can anyone answer me that? by the way,not everyone who wants a little winter fun is riding a brand new sled.so enough with the if you can buy a sled,you can buy a pass arguement....

Your"superhighways"are why myself and my group,along with all the rest of the yankees come up there and spend our tourist dollars.

Originally posted by SKI-DOOD@Dec 12 2003, 02:34 AM

I will never buy a permit and don&#39;t need to, too use the trails.
look in the back of the new hunting and fishing booklet on the trail and permit laws.
Status indians do not need permits to use the trail system.
See u on the trails, with out a permit of coarse.


SKI-DOOD...It&#39;s one thing to get that FREE as well, But then to come here and rub it in.

Priceless. :slick:

Well much has been said on this topic now, and it is apparent that the permit price generates a fair amount of controversy. Imagine the OFSC which has too be responsible to keep so many people happy. Talk about a tough job. We should all be thankful that there are people willing to give so much of there own time to make this sport and Ontario&#39;s trails as great as they are. I would like to personally thank all the volunteers and staff who give there efforts to fulfill our hobbies, and good luck! :) While we all may have different ideas and opinions, it is good that an organization weighs all the factors and provides leadership. I am convinced the OFSC does and will continue to give there best efforts to this great winter sport. (Starting to sound like an ad) :D

Now if it would only SNOW!!!!

Originally posted by Polaris1@Dec 12 2003, 10:41 PM
Your"superhighways"are why myself and my group,along with all the rest of the yankees come up there and spend our tourist dollars.
Polaris1 :)

The problem is the only $$$ the trails sees is you $165 permit you purchased

The $$$ spent on gas/hotel/food etc does not come back to the trails unfortunelately,it goes into the government coffers never to be seen again :(

Your $$$ does not benefit trails like it should

Please remember that when you come to Ontario

2003/04 ONTARIO SNOWMOBILING BY THE NUMBERS
43,364 – Audited total kilometres of OFSC snowmobile trails.
19,831 – Kilometres of border to border TOP (Trans Ontario Provincial) Trails (part of 43,364).
26,000 – approx. kilometres of OFSC trails on private land.
17,364 – approx. kilometres of OFSC trails on Crown, county or municipal land.
15,820 – Number of landowners who generously gave permission for OFSC clubs to run a snowmobile trail on their property last season.
412 – Annual dollar per kilometre cost to operate OFSC trails.
$2000 – Cost per kilometre to build a new trail.
331 – Number of pieces of large grooming equipment owned by clubs/associations.
123,886 – Number of grooming hours logged by clubs/associations last winter.
1.18 million – Dollar amount spent by clubs/associations on groomer fuel last winter.
12.5 million – Total dollars raised by snowmobile clubs from trail permit sales last season.
17.8 million – Annual dollar value invested by snowmobile clubs on trail operations and grooming.
$325 million+ – Dollars invested by clubs in OFSC snowmobile trails since 1985.
263 – Number of local snowmobile clubs belonging to the OFSC during 2003 season.
115,632 – Combined total of full season and visiter trail permits sold in 2002/03.
181,000+ – Number of OFSC family snowmobilers.
175,000 – Best guesstimate of the number of active snowmobiles in Ontario.
58% – Per cent estimate of active sleds with OFSC trail permits in 2003.
1 billion – Annual economic activity generated by OFSC snowmobile trails.
168 million – Number of kilometres snowmobilers rode on OFSC trails last winter.
32 – Total of snowmobile-related fatalities in 2003 (down from 45 in 2002).
7 – Deaths that actually occurred on OFSC trails (22%, down from 34% in 2002).
700 million – Number of media impressions/exposures for OFSC safety messages in 2003.
101,000 – Dollars dedicated to OFSC Environment Fund based on $1 per full season trail permit.
486,000 – Dollars donated in 2003 to The Easter Seal Society of Ontario.
15 million – Total dollars raised by OFSC clubs for The Easter Seals of Ontario since 1975.
37 – Years the OFSC has been the voice of organized snowmobiling in Ontario.
11.4 million – Dollar amount of OFSC’s 2002/03 annual budget.
7 million – Portion of annual 2002/03 operations budget expended directly on trails-related activities.
195 – Regular price of a Full Season Trail Permit 2004.
160 – Early Bird price of a Full Season Trail Permit if purchased before Dec. 1, 2003.
83% – Percentage of OFSC survey respondents who think Ontario snowmobiling is very or
extremely enjoyable.
85% – Percentage of OFSC survey respondents who give the OFSC an excellent or quite good
rating.
17.5 million – Number of OFSC website hits September/02 to May/03
5,879 – Number of students graduated by OFSC Driver Training.



That will give you guys something to do for a while

has anyone read Permafrost&#39;s signature ? :huh:

Paul Ya always liked that.Haven&#39;t seen him around much lately?

Actually the money that the americans that come up sledding spend do benefit more than you know. They probably only come up once or twice in a year for a short period of time, so for the amount of time they spend riding they are probably paying more for the usage that someone that lives in ontario. Also they support the local economy where they are riding, motels, B&B, food, drink, etc. Those businesses are thriving in all year long not as opposed to just the summer. And also for the # of sleds on the trails nowadays. these so-called SUPERHIGHWAYS are great.

And as for DOOD not having to by a trail pass. Oh well. If they gave me that option I wouldn&#39;t buy one either (and I make enough to support my sports habits). But I might put it back in other ways such as volunteering for the local club, etc)

Originally posted by paul yarek@Dec 13 2003, 01:15 PM
has anyone read Permafrost&#39;s signature ? :huh:
No...Seem strange to bring that up in this post. What Forum/Post should we look in to find Permafrost signature???

:huh:

Freezer: How may times in the last 2 years have you posted this same whiny drivel about the price of permits/Sudbury trails realize no OFSC benefits/trails in your area are never any better than they were whenever your fond memories are, and the fact you don&#39;t like city slickers and/or people who work hard and have nice vehicles???????? Anybody care to do a count???? :cussing: Just curious

zr9er

Probably 20 + times :p

That I whine about trail improvements that have not really improved trails in Sudbury

I never said I don&#39;t like people with nice cars and work hard for their money-fact

Nothing wrong with city slickers-I live in a City of 165 000(Sudbury)

I have a problem with people saying all sledders have expensive trucks and sleds therefore we should pay more

Indy SKS

175,000 – Best guesstimate of the number of active snowmobiles in Ontario.
58% – Per cent estimate of active sleds with OFSC trail permits in 2003.


So around 80,000 sled in Ontario have no OFSC permits

Dam that is a lot,where are they riding??

I guess the OFSC was banking on the 80,000 non OFSC sleds to buy permits :dazed: when they got the gov to intro BILL 101 to make permits mandatory

Doo rider

If those business are thriving :crazy: then why don&#39;t they give back to the trails that feed them

Point is the $$$ does not go back into trails and if the clubs don&#39;t have $$$$ they don&#39;t have trails which = no thriving business&#39;

Originally posted by Chubby@Dec 13 2003, 03:48 PM
No...Seem strange to bring that up in this post. What Forum/Post should we look in to find Permafrost signature???

:huh:
just click on "permafrost"and look on the bottom right.

Who brought up the point of sledders with $35000 dollar trucks and $10000 sled. YOU DID. Read your post. And if you think trails in your area have not improved since 1989, you have VSMS---Very Selective Memory Syndrome--- and it isn&#39;t just the TO rich that travel around this province to sled. I do. And I work out of town most of the year busting my balls so I can afford to do so. So I can afford to follow the sport i love and choose to pursue---- I choose to-----I could sit around in my home town and ##### about 1989 prices too----except it&#39;s NOT 1989 now. So if you love the sport as you keep professing, why don&#39;t you quit gripin about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freezerburnt-Although Im in no way an expert in the way the OFSC spends their money or the way it is run-do yourself a favor and go to Tug Hill in Ny on any weekend when there is snow.Then go back to Sudbury and count your blessings.BTW-nothing personal,I think Ontarioans are awesome,just dont understand your reasoning sometimes.

Paul They got to read it before they get it.or do they have toget it before they read it either way sums up this whole thread.

Originally posted by paul yarek@Dec 13 2003, 06:53 PM
just click on "permafrost"and look on the bottom right.
Paul.....Where is Permafrosts name in here???

For all of you who do not know what permafrost&#39;s signature says or the point behind Pauls post it is :

People take this blasted internet thing way too seriously. Remember folks, its ok to disagree

i agree that we should all disagree :slick: and if we can&#39;t agree on that well then i think that we should all agree that we cannot disagree together so you can all disagree about agreeing by yourselves.................... :dazed:

Originally posted by IndySKS@Dec 14 2003, 12:58 PM
For all of you who do not know what permafrost&#39;s signature says or the point behind Pauls post it is :

People take this blasted internet thing way too seriously. Remember folks, its ok to disagree
Thanks Indy for strighting that out...I was lost

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Dec 10 2003, 10:59 PM
In 1989

Our 1st trail permit was $35 and it was an OFSC permit to ride all of Ontario(though we never have)

The insurance for our Safari was $67 :)

Average 2000kms a year

We had grass drags/snow drags/Ice drags/funruns/family days etc

2003

I bought a trails permit for $160

The same insurance on my 95 STX 583 is $188 :)

average 2000kms a year

Today we have nothing but the Snowarama(great event imo)

We have less trails to ride around here-fact

trails have barely improved

I and 90% of buddies ride the Sudbury area only

Why should we pay for the TO rich *** that travels all of over Onatrio and could care less about pising $$$ away

Not everyone has a $35,000 truck and trailer and $10,000 sleds

NOW THOSE ARE FACTS

as you can see this is why I and many others feel ripped off and are leaving the sport(btw I will never leave :p )

The OFSC should look after locals NOT tourist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a pant load of whining!

So 15 yrs ago you permit cost was less than now. WOW,what a surprise huh?
Your insurance cost more too you say...go figure.
Why should you pay for me to ride your trails you ask? How aboaut why should all the richass TO riders subsidise your low volume trail permit sails with our "pissed away" money?
Do you think that 1500 permit sales a year at 39 bucks buys $100,000 grommers? Builds bridges? Pays for sinage? WAKE UP SUNSHINE....its the money of the travelling sledder that foots the bill.

What exactly does the fact that I have new sleds and a nice truck have to do with permit or insurance prices anyway? Sounds like envy and jealousy rearing its ugly head here. You really want me and others like me to stop pissing away our money in the small northern towns? or is it that you wish you had a job that afforded you the disposable income necessary to afford 50 thousand dollar trucks,nice trailers and new sleds? I spend on average 2000 to 3000 bucks on a week long sled trip,just think of the people in the small towns who not only rely on but SURVIVE on the people like me. So should I take my 3 grand and spend it somewhere else?

All this #####in over 160 bucks makes me laugh. I feel pity for you if you think 160 bucks is big money to enjoy all the the trail system has to offer. I spend more than 160 bucks in gas just trailering to the trails north of Sudbury. But then again,according to you I am one of those richass Toronto riders who apparently has no business riding YOUR trails and pissing away all my money.

LMAO,,,,,,Doonut, you really gave it to him didn&#39;t ya. Don&#39;t hold back OK! Ah well, the last thing I hope to say in this topic is this.

as you can see this is why I and many others feel ripped off and are leaving the sport

Freezer, your sure looking like the minority in this thread.

Sorry guy&#39;s just got back from some r and r a friend of mine was killed over the weekend on the 401.
Interesting statements though.
one said he comes from the states to ride the trails but thats just it. whats 165.00 converted to american dollars, yup not much is 100.00 may be.
Any way, i find it funny that every one can pay for a pass but then whine about insurance prices.

whats the difference? money is money, whether it be spent on insurance or a pass.
None of these arguments for the price of a pass show up in the arguements on insurance costs and no one is defending them from all the insurance fraud that happens? what gives.

As for the Minority issue well, some times it pays to be. As a MINORITY i don&#39;t need a pass. :lol:

This post again FB, it certainly does seem like a carbon copy of previous threads. Throw your loose change in a bucket for a few months and trail pass dollars will be there in no time. Insurance is a far bigger worry and must be controlled by the government to limit increases for responsible individuals.

Originally posted by permafrost@Dec 19 2003, 07:21 PM
This post again FB, it certainly does seem like a carbon copy of previous threads. Throw your loose change in a bucket for a few months and trail pass dollars will be there in no time. Insurance is a far bigger worry and must be controlled by the government to limit increases for responsible individuals.
Isn&#39;t the sky rocketing price of the pass due to insurance claims? if so then your pennies will soon be dollars a month. The government doens&#39;t charge to drive all the highways why the trails.

At any rate this is my last post on this subject.

Maybe the reason people B$%^& about insurance & don&#39;t have a lot to say about the permit price is they are satisfied w/ what they perceive to get for the permit money.

For those that have never made a claim & see their premiums go up every year for no apparent reason, they feel entitled to complain.

Originally posted by permafrost@Dec 19 2003, 07:21 PM
This post again FB, it certainly does seem like a carbon copy of previous threads. Throw your loose change in a bucket for a few months and trail pass dollars will be there in no time. Insurance is a far bigger worry and must be controlled by the government to limit increases for responsible individuals.
Government involvement isn&#39;t that how we got in this mess? Seems like using gas to put out a fire to me.

Sawman, who else could we get to control the ever escalating insurance situation, and yes SkiDood it is directly related to the rising cost of the permits. I have said it before and I will say it again Public Insurance. Most of our neighbouring provinces have it and they pay pennies on the dollar for the same coverage.

Bring back $90 hit me anyone remember that?Paul?

Originally posted by sawman@Dec 19 2003, 09:24 PM
Bring back $90 hit me anyone remember that?Paul?
sawman: excellent signature :D :lol:

Originally posted by revrnd@Dec 19 2003, 08:16 PM
Maybe the reason people B$%^& about insurance & don&#39;t have a lot to say about the permit price is they are satisfied w/ what they perceive to get for the permit money.

For those that have never made a claim & see their premiums go up every year for no apparent reason, they feel entitled to complain.
Revrnd the last part is exactly it. No claims just sky rocketing prices.
Why should i pay for some one elses claim?

Just curious revrnd, have u ever made a claim on any of your sleds if damaged?

SKI_DOOD: For someone who "will never pay for a permit", you have a lot of input,for someone who does not support the OFSC, but reaps the benefits of the trail system at no charge. :crazy:

Originally posted by SKI-DOOD@Dec 19 2003, 10:07 PM
Revrnd the last part is exactly it. No claims just sky rocketing prices.
Why should i pay for some one elses claim?

Just curious revrnd, have u ever made a claim on any of your sleds if damaged?
Yes I have, once back in the 90s when a was hit by a sled on the wrong side of a one lane trail (just south of Dennis&#39;s Rest. in Gooderham) :cussing: It needed a new belly pan, trailing arm & hood repairs. Around a thousand bucks in &#39;94.

The second claim was 2 years ago. A kid lost it on a blind corner & came across in front of me. My RH trailing arm hit his RH trailing arm where it bolts to the tunnel. No major damage to his sled, just scraped paint. He ended up in the sumacs BEHIND my sled & I was still on the trail where I hit him :cussing: . His buddy (who he was following) went by me @ a pretty good clip seconds before we collided.

It wasn&#39;t my idea to file. The kid (19 years old & I knew his family) should have have just paid my repair bill (700 bucks) He must have got some bad advice because I wouldn&#39;t want to renew his insurance on a 583 MXZ. I guess my ins. would have to go after his to get the money out of them :whatever: .

I&#39;ve owned my own sleds since &#39;81 & those are the only claims I&#39;ve made.

"Touch wood" If I hit something on my own I would fix it out of my own pocket. The less the ins. cos. know, the better.

Originally posted by zr9er@Dec 19 2003, 10:19 PM
SKI_DOOD: For someone who "will never pay for a permit", you have a lot of input,for someone who does not support the OFSC, but reaps the benefits of the trail system at no charge.* :crazy:
Why would i support something that the government over charges for.
i don&#39;t need to buy a fishing or hunting licences either, but i do because it is reasonable amount to pay. the passes are not.
SOOO, because i don&#39;t buy one, does that mean i have no opinion, I DON"T THINK SO.

zr9er
If u had an original thought of your own i would respect your comment but as u can see, i know u are a follower not a leader :D

Permafrost

I do exactly that I put $20 away each month starting April and always have $$$$ for the permit :)

My point on this ,is we are losing many riders do to permit prices

yes Insurance is an issue,but most have it tied to their car policy which is a monthly $$$ charge rather then a lump sum :)

I know of too many not buying permits or giving up on sledding because of the prices

80,000 active sled in Ontario don&#39;t have permits WHY???

Mind you I could careless about the guy without a permit and I am worried about the rider without insurance :(

From what I thought you don&#39;t need to worry about the guy without insurance, that is what this big no fault thing was about. As far as the government being involved, there is no choice!! The OFSC is being sued by peoples own stupidity. A person misses a corner (because they were going twice the speed limit) hits a tree and sues for $2.5 M, it&#39;s out of control. Try that with your car, chances are in ontario you will get;
1. Speeding
2. Carless Driving
3. Leaving the road in an unsafe manner
Does the OFSC have any choice??? Get all the facts and figures and think about it, it&#39;s really too bad but it&#39;s true.

Originally posted by doo700@Dec 20 2003, 01:08 AM
From what I thought you don&#39;t need to worry about the guy without insurance, that is what this big no fault thing was about.* As far as the government being involved, there is no choice!!* The OFSC is being sued by peoples own stupidity.* A person misses a corner (because they were going twice the speed limit) hits a tree and sues for $2.5 M, it&#39;s out of control.* Try that with your car, chances are in ontario you will get;
1. Speeding
2. Carless Driving
3. Leaving the road in an unsafe manner
Does the OFSC have any choice???* Get all the facts and figures and think about it, it&#39;s really too bad but it&#39;s true.
Doo700; u basically contradicted your own statement.
First u say we need the Government involved, then say the law suits are getting out of control.
Well the government is the one allowing them to get out of control.
U think about it.
when some one sue, does the money get handed right over just because he/she sues. No A judge(government offical) rules on neglect or not.
The only way some one can get the money is to go to court and prove neglect by the other party involved.
So if the law keeps handing down money to those that don&#39;t really deserve it then,
the price of the pass just keeps going up.

u are not justifing the price of the pass or the government, u are saying it is ok to sue. we&#39;ll pick up the tab when the increases are handed out.

The judges that rule in favour of compansation need to stop feeling sorry for the guy in the wheel chair or coffin and see the true facts(usually speed kills)

The problem with Gov. involvement is that they will end up complicating something else.Take the infusion of funds a few years back for trail developement,grooming equipment etc. No it wasn&#39;t good enough for us to grow at our own pace we had to have this money.So we get bigger faster trails. This directly reflects in higher insurance premiums.OFSC and personal.Then the funds aren&#39;t there anymore so now its pass the buck time. Beleive me the Gov. will rob Peter to pay Paul. Live with the mistake we made and down size.Cheaper groomers,less grooming,regular audits of clubs by a volunteer group with input from people in the area not weekend riders so they can&#39;t lie about grooming and fill up there diesl pick ups.Lets get a handle on this and grow at a reasonable pace.Its all about cost,control the cost control the sport.

Well Ski-Dood you know what they say. Opinions are like a**holes, everybodies got one and most of them stink! :) I am glad to hear you buy fishing/hunting licenses, as I&#39;m well aware that natives are not required to. But in my incapable/non-original thought process 180.00 bucks +/- to ride the best trail system in the world is peanuts,compared to what we spend on the sport otherwise. In 1989 I wonder how many people on this board rode 300+ mile days. Things change, and improve as time goes on. They also get more expensive, it&#39;s called inflation. Sure things at the OFSC are probably not perfect, and I&#39;m sure there is money wasted in places. But in my opinion (see first line) someone who does not support/or is involved in something shouldn&#39;t be raggin it out. I equate that to someone who drops their kid off at hockey/ball/soccer twice a week and drives away, but #####es about the coach/team/practices all the time,etc.
Sawman: That&#39;s a real nice brush to paint the club volunteers with, that they are diesel fuel thieves. And by the way, I happen to love the wider,faster,better groomed trails now. Maybe we should eliminate 4 lane highways too. Remember peolpe kill people, not wide trails. Not very many people get killed or crash riding a nice wide strightaway, it&#39;s the jerk off&#39;s riding the corners on the inside, and these morons will do this regardless of the year, width of trail, or quantity of grooming. That and insurance fraud are the 2 largest problems and IMHO ( see first sentence again) you cannot blame the OFSC for either. Slam Away. :christmas:

Heres my opinion, if anyone is to cheap to pay $160.00 for a trail pass ,then you are probably to cheap to maintain your sled properly. So keep your junk off MY trails and stop causing accidents that are driving up the cost of insurance/trail passes.
Also you are probably to cheap to buy tissues to wipe up all the tears,caused from all the crying about the price of a trail pass. So when you are riding around MY trails crying and tears are falling on the trails and freezing and probably causing more accidents driving up the cost of insurance/trail passes........See the circle

In closing, stay home, spend your $160 on a nice chess board and stop whining.

Remember,this is just my opinion. :sly:

i&#39;m sorry freezer but i just can&#39;t beleive that the cost of permit prices alone are driving people out of the sport...165 bucks is a spit in a bucket compared to all the other costs that come with sledding...sit out one weekend of sledding and theres your 165 bucks....work an extra day or two...i&#39;m by no means well off, i make hardly anything, and i have an extremely hard time parting with my money, but i have absolutely no problem with paying 165 dollars...if that much money was the deciding factor whether i sledded or not, i&#39;d certainly sell my sled and find a cheaper recreational activity...its an expenisive sport, and thats all there is to it...

on a different note, i&#39;m not really too familar with the way the ofsc insurance system is set up...but your saying i could be out driving too fast and slam into a tree, and then sue the ofsc...sue them for what???

Originally posted by Russ Wheeler@Dec 20 2003, 03:53 PM
on a different note, i&#39;m not really too familar with the way the ofsc insurance system is set up...but your saying i could be out driving too fast and slam into a tree, and then sue the ofsc...sue them for what???
You got it Russ (poorly marked) (snow covered sign) (late for dinner) anything

that will put the blame off of you. A Judge with no common sense helps.

alright, is it the actual person who sues or the insurance company of the injured (stupid) rider who sues the ofsc for accident benifets...?

Originally posted by Russ Wheeler@Dec 20 2003, 03:53 PM
...but your saying i could be out driving too fast and slam into a tree, and then sue the ofsc...sue them for what???
You own stupidity !

Originally posted by sleddaver@Dec 20 2003, 12:27 PM
Heres my opinion, if anyone is to cheap to pay $160.00 for a trail pass ,then you are probably to cheap to maintain your sled properly. So keep your junk off MY trails and stop causing accidents that are driving up the cost of insurance/trail passes.
Also you are probably to cheap to buy tissues to wipe up all the tears,caused from all the crying about the price of a trail pass. So when you are riding around MY trails crying and tears are falling on the trails and freezing and probably causing more accidents driving up the cost of insurance/trail passes........See the circle

In closing, stay home, spend your $160 on a nice chess board and stop whining.

Remember,this is just my opinion. :sly:
So in YOUR opinion

A sledder that has an older sled is an idiot and is causing accidents?

A sledder with a new sled will never cause accidents and is never an idiot?

Is the guy with the older sled not good enuff to be on the trail with you??

So the guy with the new sled is a better person

HMMMMM :dazed:

And they are YOUR trails because you chose not to complain about the price???

Hey if we (sledders with older sleds) buy a permit we have the same rights as anyone else that buys a permit :sly:

See my point Dave w00t

Originally posted by sawman@Dec 20 2003, 04:25 PM
A Judge with no common sense helps.
exactly, today in the courts Judges are saying someone has to pay for the crippled man and his family to eat.

Originally posted by paul yarek@Dec 20 2003, 08:42 PM
exactly, today in the courts Judges are saying someone has to pay for the crippled man and his family to eat.
Imaging that :crazy: :dazed:

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Dec 20 2003, 12:26 AM
80,000 active sled in Ontario don&#39;t have permits WHY???
I probably saw 3 of those sleds last Saturday on trailers. Late 70s &#39;doos w/ no covers on them all covered w/ road spray. Real snowmobilers have some pride in ownership & wouldn&#39;t subject a sled to all that salt & slush.

Are there really that many unpermitted sleds in the province? How many icefisherman are there in the province that have a beater sled for going out on a lake from a parking lot?

Originally posted by SKI-DOOD@Dec 19 2003, 08:16 PM
The government doens&#39;t charge to drive all the highways why the trails.

At any rate this is my last post on this subject.
What Highways do you drive on that don&#39;t cost you anything???
I just got my car plate renewal in the mail, As far as I know that money is spend on roads (Highways)?
About 70% of the gas price per liter is TAX...As far as I know some of that is spend on roads (Highways).
I&#39;m not sure what my $15 sled licence renewal sticker goes towards? :slick:

Originally posted by zr9er@Dec 20 2003, 11:34 AM
That&#39;s a real nice brush to paint the club volunteers with, that they are diesel fuel thieves.
We had to fire one of our groomers for the same reason several years ago.