Yesterday, we finally bit the bullet and trailered 600 kms (round trip) to put 160 kms on our sleds. We went to southern Quebec (basically at the Quebec/Vermont border). Solid 2 ft+ of base in that region, much less closer to Montreal, almost none around here.

Anyway - the problem was with all of the warm temperatures there were tons of sink holes on the trails. All 3 of us hit one at one time or other during the day/evening. Even though we were trying to take it easy (compared to normal), I guess we were going a little too fast for the conditions (the holes are hard to see, often just on the other side of a rise or out of the blue on a nicely groomed straight away).

My '97 Storm seemed to survive fine at first, except at the very end of the end of the day, cruising on a bumpy field at very low speeds, the bolt that holds the left trailing arm to the chassis sheared off. I didn't notice it until we got back (probably rode between 1-5 miles with it disconnected).

Questions:

- When these let go, is there something else (shock, upper/lower "control arm" link, etc.) that always gets damaged? The only damage I can clearly see is as the trailing arm moved backwards, the shock spring was pushed against the shock by the upper link, causing the fox shock sticker to get scuffed and torn a little.
- Do the shock shafts tend to survive this normally or do they bend?
- Any tips/hints for getting the remainder of the bolt out?

I guess I got off lucky, when one of the other guys in our group hit a similar sink hole his ski didn't climb the other side too well. The sled rode up the other side still going probably 10-15 mph, with the left ski now turned almost 45 degrees to the right. On the other side of the hole, the sled veered to the right, flipping him off and then it flipped and rolled a couple of times, stopping about 10 feet past the sink hole. Luckily he wasn't hurt too badly and the sled stopped short of the trees on the fairly narrow trail. It's pretty clear what's damaged on his sled (trailing arm, shock, upper/lower links, tie rod end, ski, windshield and a small crack on the side of the hood) - not to mention his aches and pains.

It figures - now that our sleds are broken, they're calling for snow here...

Steve

Steve, we had the same thing happen last winter to an XCR7 that runs with us, only we were about 25 miles from home. We rode it back, obviously being carefull. No other resulting damage to ours. EZ-out and a little heat worked on ours.

maybe upgrade to a grade 8 bolt? mike

They regularly break if you have high miles and ride hard. I do alot of off trail riding so we're contantly pounding through drifts and ditches when they pull the culverts from the logging roads.

If you watch the action of the t-arm you'll see as it goes through the motion it moves in and out laterally. Over time that action weakens the bolt and it breaks. Overall the suspension is designed to shear that bolt in a hard hit to save the rest of the chassis, though this is rarely the case.

Get a washer, a nut, and a welder. Weld the washer onto what's left of the bolt, weld the nut to the washer and while it's still hot back it out. Use a wrench but if you have a good person running the welder an impact should do it, if you have weak welds try the wrench first.

This serves two purposes, something to bite the bolt stud, and it heats up the factory loctite that's on the bolt.

I did one with drill bits and easy outs and broke 'em all, ended up changing the whole footwell (it's one piece on a 95 XLT). The last two I've done have been as described, the bolt comes out everytime we get a good weld on the washer.

As for breaking on the trail, me experience has been at low speed so all my parts survived. I even rode back 40 miles with straps holding the thing in place in an attempt to save the rest of the stuff (it worked). As you described the paint on the shock body gets the worst of it.

Matt

Originally posted by michahicks@Jan 4 2004, 04:12 PM
We rode it back, obviously being carefull. No other resulting damage to ours. EZ-out and a little heat worked on ours.
I used an easy out and a little bit of heat and it worked. I now change the bolts every season! :undercover:

Thanks for the advice.

I haven't tried to get it out yet. I'll look in to the welding option.

Steve

Dirk Wiggler,

Tonight I tried to work what's left of the bolt a little. Instead of drilling and using an easy out I decided to make use of the way the bolt sheared off. It is angled in such a way that I was able to take a punch and try to spin it out. I pounded away for quite a while and it didn't budge. I figured at that point the bolt was going to be difficult to remove and I should use your technique.

Then I thought - "let's see what the other side is like - I should replace it anyway". I put a wrench on it and gave it a little torque (very little - used a short 3/8" ratchet and very lightly started to push on it). It turned about 1/4 turn with ease and then "snap" broke off too. It was obviously just about to go.

So. I don't want to screw around with an easy out and a drill and mess up both sides....

Can you give me more info on your technique? What size washer? Do you fill the interior of the washer? Any other suggestions?

If I screw this up it looks like it will be a major, major pain to replace the threaded bosses that the arms attach to.

Thanks,

Steve

Steve, heat is going to be the key for your repair. You'll need it to release the red loctite... Without it, you're going to make yourself crazy.

michahicks,

How do you heat it without melting the plastic though? The "boss" on the Agressive chassis is inside the engine compartment, just infront of the foot rest. The "boss" or shaft goes through the side of the plastic body and there's no more than 1/16" of clearance around it. I looked at removing the side of the sled, but it's riveted on with lots of rivets plus I'd have to remove the bumper. Major job.

I figure anything I have (propane torch, etc.) would melt the body. I'm hoping the washer technique will heat the bolt very quickly without melting the body. Suggestions?

Steve

Originally posted by Bauer@Jan 5 2004, 11:07 AM
I used an easy out and a little bit of heat and it worked. I now change the bolts every season! :undercover:
i took a look at your photo album, must be nice to have all of that snow there. Getting suck on the side of a hill :( (That is me moaning about having no sno)


:whatever: :sarcasm: Me thinking about sno

Sorry Steve, I wasn't there when they did it, so I don't know for sure. Wondering about how a soaking wet rag(s) and a sheet of aluminum might work to insulate the plastic? They were using a regular torch so they were able to get in and heat it very quickly. With the propane, it's obviously going to take a lot longer....it doesn't need to be red hot. Just hot enough to melt the plastic like loctite....AL

Here are a couple of pictures of the bolts so you can see what I mean:

Left side:
http://www.snowmobileworld.com/gallery/data/tmp_media/Broken_bolt_-_left_2.JPG

Right side:
http://www.snowmobileworld.com/gallery/data/tmp_media/Broken_bolt_-_right.JPG

Steve, you wouldn't necessarily have to heat that end of the bolt....

Let me save you some time. Forget about heating it and trying to get it out that way without melting anything. You NEED to drill a pilot hole, and get an EASY-OUT to remove it. Bottom line. You may have to work at it a bit, but it is your best solution.

I had to repair one of mine recently while on the trail. Fortunately, I noticed it at a service shop. Drilled a new hole in the existing bolt, tapped the hole for a new but smaller bolt, and finished the ride. When I got home, my "professional" father drilled the hole nearly to the threads, perfectly centered I might add, and used an easy-out to get the remaining bolt out. Ran a tap through the hole to clean any left over carnage, new grade 8 bolt, and on my way.

Originally posted by michahicks@Jan 7 2004, 12:33 PM
Steve, you wouldn't necessarily have to heat that end of the bolt....
Eh?

It is red loctite'd in place and all of the threads are still engaged (that's all that is left). The way they snapped, the thread is still engaged.

I was thinking about attacking with the heat from the inside? Small flame directed at the opposite end of the bolt, or the part that holds it, whatever, directed away from the plastic. Might melt some paint, but....

agree with mhicks, you have to heat it. but first i would get an easy out hole drilled. maybe if you get an easy out in it snugly, you could heat the easy out and get enough heat to transfer to melt the loctite. mike

I just called up one of the local dealers and asked their technique.

Drill hole first, then take a worn out drill bit drill it the next size up. The worn out bit creates enough heat to break down the loctite so the easy out can remove the piece.

Seems like there are a number of ways to skin this cat (I'm just concerned about what I'll have to do if I screw it up).

BTW, the dealer won't garantee the work either. If they screw up when drilling and mess up the threads they quoted an 8 hour job on each side to replace the tapped part. I didn't ask their hourly rate, but it's probably $80 or so ($80 x 8 = $640 + parts + tax).

I want to make sure this works the first time. I think the best bet is to do it myself, but take my time. I'm still not sure which is the best method...

Steve

youll have "real fun" if you break that drill bit. and when i say real fun, i mean, reeeeaaal funnn! with 7 years of machinist knowledge, i call bs, to the above method. it wont get hot enough. mike

I broke this bolt off on my left trailing arm this summer doing maintanance. I tried the easy out method, ended up breaking the easy out and having to use a grinding wheel on a dremel tool to put flats on the stub, then backed it out. I took a drill that is the same size as the minor diameter of the threads (I believe they are 7/16 -20, the same size threads as the studs on a small block Chevy engine) and drilled the rest of the bolt out. I was going to install a heli-coil, a spring-like thread device, but there seemed to be enough of the threads left to use another regular (grade 8) bolt in the hole. I did this, using blue loctite, which is a thread locker not quite as strong as red (which requires serious heat to break loose). I have only put on about 60 miles so far this winter, but it has held up so far. By the way, I work in a machine shop also.

I broke this bolt off on my left trailing arm this summer doing maintanance. I tried the easy out method, ended up breaking the easy out
did you heat it??

I broke the left side trailing arm bolt off last year. The bolt was still sticking out a bit not enough to get vice grips on to turn the bolt out. So my brother used a hacksaw and made a cut, then we used a big flat screwdriver. Put the screwdriver on and put vicegrips on the screwdriver so we could turn it good. Then as i turned my brother hit the screwdriver with a hammer so the screwdriver would stay in place. It worked to unscrew the bolt. It must not have had any loctite cause it did came out fairly easy. :crazy:

Tonight I picked up a good sized (7/16-9/16 bolt) easy out and a new propane torch (my old one suffered a nasty big flaming death - 5' flames almost got me). Tomorrow I'll give it a try... Drill a 1/4" hole throught the center, install the easy out, heat the easy out for a while, and try to remove what's left.

I also spoke to a guy who sold welding supplies for about 35 years. He told me of a special welding rod that is specifically designed for removing broken bolts like this. The rod is covered with a special layer of flux that doesn't conduct so when you guide it down the hole it only welds to the bolt, not the tapped hole. He said it works very well, even if there's a broke easy out in there or if the bolt is broken off deep. The flux keeps flowing and coats the existing threads so the metal builds up on the end of the bolt only. Apparantly you can even remove broken bolts that are deep in a hole - up to 2" inside with it. He also gave me a name of someone who is apparently very good at doing the job and has this rod in his shop (I also know the guy - best mechanic I know - didn't know he was good at this though...).

So, if I fail tomorrow night, I'll get this guy to do it. I think I'm pretty much set.

Hopefully starting tomorrow I'll be looking hard for snow again...

Steve

Every time Ive heated an easy out it turned to butter and broke off and I was really screwed-just my 2 cents worth...

I'm not positive about the flame temperature of a standard propane torch, but I'm hoping/expecting that it won't be high enough to change the strength of the easy out, but will be high enough to soften the loctite....

Steve

heat it a little and try it. do not turn it red. just till it smokes when you remove the flame. 1000° will anneal steel. mike

Hmmm, sure seems like you guys are going through quite the experience to get a broken bolt out. I guess I should feel lucky my father was around to show his expertise. I swear, 20 minutes, and we had the old bolt drilled and easy outed and a new one in. In fact, we never even took the sled off the trailer, and did it outside in the cold.

Good luck, don't start the sled on fire with the torch......

ive broken many....I just slowly drill out the bolt with a cobalt drill bit and oil than I tap it.

Actually ive tapped one size bigger to put in a bigger bolt and it worked out nicely and never broke one after that.

Yeah ya gotta hate when that happens. Happened to farmer last year

Success!!!

That was one of the most difficult "quick fixes" I've ever performed (this is coming from a guy who builds custom cars, trucks, race cars, rebuilds auto transmissions, differentials, many, many engines, and has used easy outs many times to remove snapped off bolts (just not permanent red loctited ones with plastic around them), etc.).

The side that snapped off while attempting to remove the bolt was a piece of cake. Drilled it out, heated it (made up a custom shield), and used the easy out to remove it.

The side that broke while on the trail was another story. I drilled it out, heated it (using the custom shield) until the loctite was smoking and then tried the easy out - no go. I kept heating it and heating it and kept trying it. The plastic on the side of the sled was starting to melt, especially around the tapped hole. Finally I decided to give it all it would take (top quality easy out) and bang - snapped the easy out (to my surprize it handled at least 150 ft-lbs (of pure torque - no bending moment) before breaking and was at the point of bending the tunnel - it was a fairly large one though - 1/2" diameter shank).

I managed to hammer away at the easy out using a punch and eventually got what was left loose and then out. I found a second easy out so I decided to give it a try, first boring it out a little more, then heating the part so it was very, very hot (all the paint burn't off and I melted a little more body panel - my shield was glowing bright red, almost white). After all that it again took about 150 ft-lbs and all of a sudden it started to turn. It took the same torque all the way out. Since the body panels were still soft I was able to manually tweak them so it's very hard to see any distortion (unless you look close).

After cleaning out all of the loctite, the threads look 100% perfect.

I hope I don't have to go through that again. I think I'll use blue locktite when I install the new 2.5" 7/16-20 bolts (now that I measured them) tomorrow...

Steve

great! good job!