I've been sledding for about 26 years. Back in the old days the sleds were so slow a large group could sled together and have a great time, while everyone was able to see (when I first started sledding it was on 9 hp machines).

These days I'm starting to find the snowdust kicked up from the forwards sleds to be too much. The taller track lugs and higher speeds are causing much more snow to be thrown in the air. The guys following can't see very well (unless their in 2nd or possibly 3rd position and riding very close to the lead). The problem is much worse at night due to the general lack of any cross wind and reflected light from the headlights.

Also, reading through this forum and talking to buddies, it seems to be becoming more common for a rear ender to occur due to lack of visibility.

I'm actually starting to find it's sometimes more enjoyable to be out alone in the evening. So I started thinking... Is there anything that can help keep the dust down?

How much improvement would a BIG snow flap make?

What about different headlights and some sort of light filter in the helmet's visor?

What about some better tail and brake lights on the machines? Possibly much higher?

(I guess I'm getting old - thinking of safety...I'm also wearing a tek-vest now too...)

Steve

There is one thing I find works VERY well... Stay in the lead! :D

Thats your first option. But now you got me thinking, could we use LED lights that are A LOT brighter than regular lights for headlights and brakes lights also?

But I dont think a larger snowflap is going to do anything. Next time your out on the trails and following another sled, you'll notice the dust is coming out from the sides of the tunnel... my friends and I ride older Polaris's, and when we're sitting on them the snow flap touches the ground, and we still get a lot of snow dust.

Some helmet manufactures are now putting a red taillight on the back of the helmet that is battery operated......see if you can get your buddies to purchase these to prevent fender benders. As for snow dust try using the screening material that Arctic Cat uses on it's Firecat series or something similiar. It is a fine
mesh material that lets air in but not snow. I guess it works kinda like Gore-Tex.

a bigger flap does make a difference. if your flap drags on the ground when you're riding it doesnt kick up as much snow dust. i now have a stock doo flap on my 440 but used to have a home made flap made from conveyor belt. it has to touch the ground due to the sno-x regulations. i might put it back on cuz i feel bad for the guys i ride with. :blush:

The best solution is also the cheapest. Stay further back from the sledder in front of you. If the snow dust bothers you, back off. This will allow better visibilty and more reaction time to any potential situation that may arise. It's not unlike driving your car or truck in bad weather on the highway. You can be several hundred feet apart from your co-riders and still be considered travelling together. At 50 kph or 30 mph your vehicle travels 44 feet per second. That equates to 5 seconds apart for 220 feet. To me that's a nice clean, clear, safe distance to maintain at the minimum. For an added treat stay behind your co-riders a minute or so. You get the feeling and unobstructed view of a solo rider, with the comfort of knowing your companions are just ahead of you. You can play with the throttle at will! It's quite relaxing really.

Originally posted by FlyingDutchman@Jan 27 2004, 10:43 PM
The best solution is also the cheapest. Stay further back from the sledder in front of you. If the snow dust bothers you, back off.
Last time we were out (Friday evening), the snow dust hung in the air for what seemed like an eternity. There were 3 sleds out, and if the last one fell back far enough to not see (and be forced to back off), he would have to back off at least 3/4 of a mile in order to ride safely. It really wasn't fun being last.

It was one of those strange -30°C nights when the snow just hangs in the air, but traction and engine power is phenomenal. I also had problems with snow getting sucked into the engine causing carburetor icing and my visor fogging up - but that's another story (although both related to the amount of snow dust in the air).

Most of the time staying back works to some extent, but with a really large crew and no wind, lots of fine snow dust again stays in the air a long time.

One time last year I was out with a group of 10 on a cold, fresh fine snow day/evening and visibility was very poor, even if you backed off way behind.

Steve

Originally posted by 92Indy440@Jan 27 2004, 10:14 PM
There is one thing I find works VERY well... Stay in the lead! :D

Thats your first option. But now you got me thinking, could we use LED lights that are A LOT brighter than regular lights for headlights and brakes lights also?

But I dont think a larger snowflap is going to do anything. Next time your out on the trails and following another sled, you'll notice the dust is coming out from the sides of the tunnel... my friends and I ride older Polaris's, and when we're sitting on them the snow flap touches the ground, and we still get a lot of snow dust.
Staying in the lead is my first choice, but doesn't reduce the risk of getting rear ended.

I could see brighter tail lights using LED's, but I don't think LED's would be any brighter up front. Possibly a different color headlight that has a light spectrum that isn't reflected by snow as much (like a yellower, but still brighter bulb).

Not sure about the snowflap. It would definitely reduce the snow kicked up at the rear, but as you say there is a lot from the front of the track (as the air is pushed down and out the sides by the track).

Originally posted by drifter2004@Jan 27 2004, 10:26 PM
Some helmet manufactures are now putting a red taillight on the back of the helmet that is battery operated......see if you can get your buddies to purchase these to prevent fender benders. As for snow dust try using the screening material that Arctic Cat uses on it's Firecat series or something similiar. It is a fine
mesh material that lets air in but not snow. I guess it works kinda like Gore-Tex.
One of the guys I ride with has a very reflective triangle at the back of his helmet. Although it isn't lit it does help.

The light sounds like a decent idea. Web page link? Is there a (decent looking) retrofit kit?

Steve800, I agree with your comments. There are weather situations, that will have snow dust hanging and crystalizing in the air for several minutes. When travelling in this situation into the sun it's almost blinding. For the most part, a little extra distance works fine, and I don't see how it diminishes the fun aspect, being more relaxed and able to see everything clearly. On another note, 5 sleds in our party last week in Timmins (rental sleds) were Polaris tourings. They all had problems with carb icing from fresh powder being sucked in through the intake Airbox system. This is on groomed trails with some fresh powder on top of the base. The 3 other sleds (Yamaha and Ski-Doo ) had no such issues. I sense a design problem here.

Originally posted by FlyingDutchman@Jan 27 2004, 10:43 PM
The best solution is also the cheapest. Stay further back from the sledder in front of you. If the snow dust bothers you, back off. This will allow better visibilty and more reaction time to any potential situation that may arise. It's not unlike driving your car or truck in bad weather on the highway. You can be several hundred feet apart from your co-riders and still be considered travelling together. At 50 kph or 30 mph your vehicle travels 44 feet per second. That equates to 5 seconds apart for 220 feet. To me that's a nice clean, clear, safe distance to maintain at the minimum. For an added treat stay behind your co-riders a minute or so. You get the feeling and unobstructed view of a solo rider, with the comfort of knowing your companions are just ahead of you. You can play with the throttle at will! It's quite relaxing really.
This man hit the nail on the head. :withstupid:

Well, this solution won't be of much use to most of you, but we tend to ride 2 or 3 abreast when we're cruising the bogs and at night when you can see if anybody's coming on the trails. But it's a very different situation here where so much of the riding is through open country, and there's so little traffic.

My whole group uses lug tracks. We are sometimes 11 in number. We ride very far apart to reduce the snow dust. I had a guy on a machz almost hit and kill me last year because he couldnt see for the snow dust. He bailed the machine rather then rear end me. TG. He was just too close to me. We were coming to the end of an airport strip and i slowed down (I know the strip very well) he didnt and the next thing I see a machz go barrel rolling to the left of me and past me. My friend was OK but his mirrors were a little hurting. We keep a good distance between all the riders. IMHO I wouldnt ride at night. Too many things to go wrong and too easy to ride in the "kill zone" on these high powered rockets we are all riding these days. The only helmet I know of with a light is the new BVS2 and while looks pretty cool from the reports I have heard about it they bite. They are quiet costly and fog and freeze you badly. Maybe you guys could try some glow sticks or reflectors and or reflective tape.Another thought what about a sno cross helmet they are bright orange Keep your distance and ride safe. Keep the rubber side down. :D

the best soloution and only sulotion is stay back.....i do find if you are riding on trials that are very flat and striaght u can suck up to the sled in front of u and there is not as much snow dust. but this si not safe on many trials so i wouldnt try it.

i do notice that my 1.375 lug does through up a lot of dust....so my buddies eather make sure they are in front of me or way behind.

Originally posted by FlyingDutchman@Jan 27 2004, 10:43 PM
The best solution is also the cheapest. Stay further back from the sledder in front of you. If the snow dust bothers you, back off. This will allow better visibilty and more reaction time to any potential situation that may arise. It's not unlike driving your car or truck in bad weather on the highway. You can be several hundred feet apart from your co-riders and still be considered travelling together. At 50 kph or 30 mph your vehicle travels 44 feet per second. That equates to 5 seconds apart for 220 feet.
right on, the conditions determine how far back you'll have to stay. unfortunately we have chosen a sport that has almost no perfect conditions.

I don't remember as a kid snow dust every being a problem. Like others said it was likely due to the lower speeds and low lug tracks.

I find riding into a head wind is brutal.

To help out with the visibility aspect I changed suits to a safety orange suit that glows. It has 3 inch strips across the back, on the arms and all the piping is reflective. My gloves are also orange with reflective piping. I also have a reflective decal on the back of my helmet. My buddy purchased the same gloves as I have but in yellow and they work great too. The suit glows day or night and is the best



We always raise our right arm straight up to signal caution or stop coming up with the reflective side back. The arm is usually far enough up you can see the reflective stripes above the dust. Works like a charm.

I also wear a tek-vest just in case the signal doesn't work.

Our riding policy is if you loose the sled infront of you your off the gas until you can see them. In a head wind sometimes it can be 1/2 mile until it is clear at speed.

To cut down on the dust from my XLT I fabbed little wings at the rear that tie the running boards into the snow flap. I used to get completely coverd by dust including my taillight. Now with these the dust is cut dramatically and I never get covered on my back or on the tail light. Look at any older Polaris like the gen ii, wedge or evolved and they all have an opening between the boards and the flap which blows snow straight up. If you've ever followed one you'll know what I mean.


If you look at the picture you'll see 2 aluminum rivits at the rear and a polished aluminum L connecting the tunnel to within 1 inch of the flap. Any older Polaris riders do this, your buddies will appreciated it and besides your back will stay snow free.

Just stay further back. If you can't see back off until you can. Just like at night, never outride your headlights. Same here, never outride your visibility.

I ride with a club and sometimes I don't know who is going to be in front of me. Though after starting out we try to keep the sleds in the same order. Anyway I always tell the guy in front of me that he does not need to worry about if I am behind him if he can't see me. I tell him to stop at stop signs and turns to wait for me and if I'm not back there after a few look backs then maybe I have stopped. I like to be completely behind his dust trail. I would rather have to wait a few more seconds than have to make a emergency stop and hit him or another in our group. Always error on the side of caution. This also keeps your sled on the trail incase you don't see a sharp corner and your drafting someone. The corner signs are not helpfull anymore so staying back to see what is really going on is much easier.

FuzzButt, you hit the nail on the head.

The problem we have is our group "policy" is to alway make sure you can see the guy behind you. If you can't - slow down or stop at the next road crossing.

The snow dust makes often makes this not work. For example Friday night it was stop and go all night.

We tried riding close, but don't generally feel safe with that - depending on the trail (you can do it if the trail is slow and it works on a wide straight trail, riding staggered). What constantly kept happening is we would spread out about 3/4 of a mile apart and then after about 15 minutes the guy in front would stop and we'd get back together. Each stop took at least 5 minutes.

Normally staying back means you can still see the guy behind's head light on straightaways - that night it wasn't so.

I guess we'll just have to stick to the staying back method or riding staggered in the fields. Maybe we should modify the stop if the guy isn't behind rule a little.

Steve

Originally posted by Steve800@Jan 28 2004, 03:36 PM
Maybe we should modify the stop if the guy isn't behind rule a little.


THat's what we're doing more and more lately. With trails being faster, sleds being more dependable, and sleds of vastly different performance levels, it's harder and harder to keep the people you're riding with in constant sight. Now I tend to ride for 10-15 minutes, and then I wait for the people I'm riding with. If they're pushing it I might not need to wait at all. If the trail is choppy I'll end up getting far ahead, or then again, if it's really smooth I end up getting on the gas and I'll have to wait for them awhile. :D :p

I have a black and silver HJC helmet. I cut silver reflective 3M tape into traingles and put it all over my helmet. You can barely tell they are there in the daytime, but at night you can see me from several hundred yards away, even through a lot of snow dust. I also put it on the hood of my sled by the hood latches. I've done this because after riding behind several Doos, I've noticed that I can see the reflective tape that is OEM in the same area, even when there is so much dust I can't see the brake light. Reflective tape is the best alternative to slowing down.