I'm usually not one to take a poke at the tireless work of club volunteers but after a 340+ mile ride Saturday that saw trail conditions range from perfect to nothing short of pitifull I'm kinda left wondering what the hecks wrong with some clubs.

At 7am 3eyedcat and myself left Port Perry club house and headed out towards Rice lake for breakfast, the Port Perry trails (as is the norm with a club that usually grooms mid morning to mid day / seldom if ever at night in spite of some of the best equipment in the federation) started off on the rough side but well within reason, the further toward the Ganny we got the smoother the ride, once into the Ganny I can only describe the trails as heavenly as was the case all the way to Rice Lake.

In for a bite of breakfast and off down the lake we go, a little rough on the lake but still pretty darn nice, we picked up 108 and headed east, all the trails where at the very least good with many sections excellent going, little issue finding 106 north as theres no sign (been missing for 3 years now oh well) but after going a few miles past the turn into Sterling I realized the last intersection must have been our turn, no biggie we needed gas anyways.

So off towards Bancroft we go, trails are now a little rougher but still great going but got even better the further north we ran. Stopped for lunch and fuel just short of town the headed off east to pick up 108E back towards Fenelon falls. Over the next 100++ miles the trail system was nothing short of pathetic, huge holes, unmarked washouts, almost ran over a 3 kids on a toboggan being pulled by a 4 wheeler that had stopped just over rise, that was the only moment that I was thankfull that the trails had been so rough and we where only traveling 15-20kph, had I been going faster theres no way I would have been able to avoid running over the toboggan and it's three occupants.

We did however come across a groomer some 50 or so miles later but the effort to "pack only" caused more of an issue than they solved as the packing action did little to nothing for filling the sometimes huge holes in the trail and made hitting the edges harsh and if travelling fast enough dangerous. The next groomer we came across 15 miles later was doing a great job of cutting / packing, too bad he had only come on the trail approx 3 miles before, well back onto pathetic 20-30 kph trails all the way to Fenelon Falls.

Stopped in for fuel and a coffee then headed town the railway, we only travelled about half way to Lindsay when we came upon a groomer headed our way, great our luck had finally changed, NOT, just a few miles later was the 108 turn off to Port Perry, back onto mega chewed trails all the way back. On the trail south to Port Perry we passed two of their groomers sitting idle while we pounded through snow drifts along the edges of several fields, it's little wonder that lots of sleds had strayed onto the fields themselves, past the trails signs, in the hope of a little smoother ride.

The fact that some of the trails had been groomed perhaps the night before and due to high traffic had become chewed up isn't the fault of the clubs but for the many miles of trail that we ran where you could clearly see that nothing had been done for some time I can only wonder "WHAT THE HECKS GOING ON". I, nor did anyone else buy a permit to ride on trails that are in no better shape than a bush wackers trail.

Ya I'm ranting.............Ya I know the trails are built by volunteers but I also know many clubs do pay their groomer operators a wage to them my question is 1st...why don't you groom late at night when traffics low / non existent so the trail sets up hard....2nd why are the trails not groomed when theres enough snow to do so? I know in the case of Port Perry the issue lies in the fact that their president is as thick as a brick but for the rest.............WHAT GIVES??

Rick.

Rick, I feel your pain.
Back here in Newfoundland we're running into a similar problem with the Western Snoriders not grooming trails. The weekend before last we had a trip to Marble Mountain planned. This is not a long trip at all, when the trails are groomed, but once we got to the Western Snoriders territory the trails were garbage! Some of the area was short on snow, and that is a good reason not to groom of course, but if half their trails are ungroomable, shouldn't that mean that the other half get groomed twice as often? Not the case with this club.
Then, this weekend we plan to swing into Gallants using their trails again. And we're shocked when we get to their trails to find that they hadn't been groomed in over 10 days. We had had a big storm on Monday, and Saturday afternoon the trails are still full of drifts and humps and holes. They finally got out late Saturday evening to start work on those trails.

Simply put, the Western Sno Riders is dropping the ball, and they really need to get their act together. It's getting so that we can't plan a trip because we can't count on the trails being groomed. The provincial Federation gave them two groomers, and they don't seem to be using either of them south of Corner Brook any more than once every two weeks. That's just not acceptable.

I should write a letter to the paper I suppose, because I know that nobdy that needs to read this will read it here. But I had to write it, just because I'm pi s s e d.

I feel your pain - literally! We rode over to the Paudash's snowmobile club's cookout yesterday. The Haliburton trails were not groomed except for the railbed, the railbed on Paudash's trails were NOT groomed for a week. There were a set of tracks where someone had bounced right off the trail into the ditch, you could tell they were not going too fast as they didn't go too far once they hit the steep ditch. I think all the clubs are grooming less this year, plus we do need more snow in all fairness to the clubs.

For sure lack of snow is the problem in some areas but in the areas where the temps and snow has been good for grooming theres no excuse. A loop like we took would have been a pleasure(which the first 1/2-2/3 was) but instead turned into an endurance contest, little incentive for touring here in the South if thats gonna be the norm this season.
I wonder if this is an OFSC directive meant to bring down trail speeds.........Hmmmmmmmmm!!!!

Rick.

What blows my mind is the fact that we really did'nt see that many sledder's out considering the amount of terrain we covered. Ruts were the size of a 10 person hot tub, that only shows the lack of consistent grooming. With the cold temps that had flooded into southern Ontario over the last month you would think that the clubs would of turned this trail [e108] system into a concrete like surface that could take a pounding and still hold out. The only bright light I can put on this is that Rick would turned those kids into mush that were being pulled by the atv, if we would of had the type of surface we were running on up to Bancroft, this could of been really,really bad.....

Volunteers are fine for brushing trails and signing and things like that but not for grooming. People that drive the groomers should be paid. More times than not a volunteer does want to go out at 2 AM to groom a trail.
Clubs need to be and should be run like businesses and the good people that get up at 2AM to groom trails should be paid.
Just my 2 cents.

I know for a fact that at least some clubs and for all I know maybe most clubs do pay their groomer operators. It's rediculous when "PAID OPERATORS" still don't groom in the wee hours when they should. The trails around Port Perry are the best example, the club president pays himself / his brother / his brother in law to groom but only do so during daylight hours, be it early am or late afternoon, all but never do they groom when the trails are quiet and the temps are best. I know traffic is very high in their area but they don't give the trails a chance. :devil:

Rick.

Originally posted by Tempest@Feb 2 2004, 07:55 AM
I think all the clubs are grooming less this year,
dingle dingle dingle, give that girl prize number one.

the mood in the clubs is not the same as a few years back. the committee/volunteers have been saddled with some unpopular issues and they got into this because they felt better when it was fun for others. now thanks to some changes beyond the club committee's control lots of the fun has gone away. you ask a club committee member a question about the system and the poor person is already on the defense. with the fun going away so does the reason to go grooming.

Rick, you probably saw my posts about Old Hastings & Paudash. TOP E north of the clubhouse was fine, but yeah E108 west sucked big time. If we head west on E108 from our area, it's always a crap shoot what we'll find as we hit the BDSC trails.

We have some similar issues here in Manitoba. Some clubs are great at grooming there trails and others are just stupid. Watched a groomer go out in a storm on one trail. 10 minutes after he went by you could not tell. Just wasting fuel. I don't do a lot of trail riding as I usually find them overcrowded and sometimes dangerous due to all the people. Lately though I have been running the ungroomed trails. Nevewr crowded. Actually sometimes I never see another sled. Rough though.

We haven't had enough snow to even groom here in the last 3 years. This weekend when I went to my parents there was only maybe 4 inches of really powdery on the ground but the trail was groomed! I was just laughing when I saw that, I think the groomer was just getting an itch to go out and groom!

Here in Michigan its been a different story this year, I've logged on about 1500 miles is the U.P. this year and have yet to come across a bumpy trail, and yes these trips have all been made over the weekends. I've seen many clubs grooming over night and then again during the day, many U.P. clubs are going above and beyond this season. As far as the Lower Pen. goes, was in Atlanta this past weekend and the trails were less than desirable, the problem there is that the DNR grooms many of the trails and they are paid buy the state and many could care less about the state of the trails.

There seems to be a different 'problem' around my area (Barrie-Midland-Orillia-Collingwood). I might be just imagining it, but it seems like they've been concentrating the grooming around the weekends, with little or no grooming during the week. That kind of screws up my riding as I prefer to ride a few times during the week and stay home on the weekend, to avoid the crowds.

There's definitely less grooming going on this year - and for reasons beyond the scope of this thread - and it's not really too surprising. Permit sales are down from 5 years ago, insurance is way up, and as Paul said, the clubs are scared to death of being sued, resulting in low morale among volunteers and members.

We need to do something before we're all back to riding ungroomed, unsigned, and unassumed bush trails. Anyone want to buy an SRX? Or will trade for a good reliable Elan, anyone got one? :D

Originally posted by ZR Sled Head@Feb 2 2004, 10:21 AM
...to groom but only do so during daylight hours, be it early am or late afternoon, all but never do they groom when the trails are quiet and the temps are best. I know traffic is very high in their area but they don't give the trails a chance. :devil:
I know exactly what you mean. During the week we've left the PP clubhouse around 4:30 PM heading for Bewdley. Half way to Burketon we'll meet the groomer heading home. The trail never gets a chance to "set up". When we ride back later that evening, you wouldn't know the groomer had been thru.

I'll post what I notice



That wont be much from what buddy was tellin me.i think all the ol school doods dont give a hoot no more.
should be trainin new blood fer groomer operations in the night.crank the tunes and giver. :whatever:
maybe it is the cost to run them..are we only covering insurance costs now or somethin?

Originally posted by The Hossman@Feb 2 2004, 08:53 PM
There's definitely less grooming going on this year - and for reasons beyond the scope of this thread - and it's not really too surprising. Permit sales are down from 5 years ago, insurance is way up, and as Paul said, the clubs are scared to death of being sued, resulting in low morale among volunteers and members.
Let me assure you, by not grooming often, the clubs aren't helping their cause... why isn't more being done about getting the liability insurance problem resolved? What can I do to help?

i think all the ol school doods dont give a hoot no more.

I agree. Why should anybody care when some idiot on his REV (save the comments, I ride a REV, but like to think I am not an idiot) is going to blast through the trails, rip around corners, and shred road crossings with no thought for others? I can definitely understand the apathy.

should be trainin new blood fer groomer operations in the night.crank the tunes and giver. :whatever:


The guy I saw driving the groomer in Penetang last Friday looked pretty young :) Good for him for grooming for us!

maybe it is the cost to run them..are we only covering insurance costs now or somethin?

I am starting to get that impression myself.

Its called $$$$

Trail permits are down so less $$$ for grooming

I know that some clubs up north are already running out of $$$ for grooming

Why? low permit sales,which means less $$$ for grooming(MCTV news last night)

It was also stated on the news that some clubs up here have their permit sales dropped by 75%

Maybe some clubs are scared to run out of $$$ by grooming too much early season then running out of $$$ for march grooming


Good news is I met up with the groomer here last night twice :D

They finally got the last of our feeder trails finally groomed here in Chemmy

Be happy you don't see me biatching about the grooming don't you :p

It's a vicious cycle- fewer permit sales, less grooming, less grooming, less people inclined to buy a permit.

Last winter in central Ontario, the snow conditions were fantastic and still grooming was lacking in some areas. What gives?

money,money,money makes the world go round.i'll just keep buying trail permits and hope for the best..........and yes,i have ridden some brutal trails this year but i always look forward to the next ride. :D

So, we're just supposed to accept the poorly groomed trails and continue buying trail permits? People will not tolerate this for much longer...

"People will not tolerate this for much longer..." You're right OntRider, but the "people" are the club volunteers. The enthusiasm is gone. Why bother? The riders don't want to help, they ##### and complain and than when they crash due to their own negligance, they sue us. I know my club can't find any replacement volunteers. I've been a volunteer since the late 1980's, my club has been sued twice (unsuccessfully, not our fault) and I have no desire to continue. Sure we won, but we paid for defense lawyers and myself and the other club executive had to spend days with lawyers and court at our expense. Work for free so riders can sue me? Forget it. Our pres is quiting to go riding next year. If you think this year is bad, what until you see next year. Expect less trails, less grooming and higher permit prices for insurance. We've done it to ourselves, now we must face the outcome. Me, I'd rather pay $500 for a permit, it would save me time and money.

We've done it to ourselves, now we must face the outcome.

I would disagree... a select few 'people' (and I use that term loosely) have done it to us and now the majority is faced with outcome. Gone are the days when people will take responsibility for their own actions. It's not just in snowmobiling, but everywhere. People will not admit they f'd up and need somebody to blame.

What can the average rider do to help the situation? Who needs to step-up and face the government/insurance companies to ensure this lawsuit BS is terminated? States in the US get away with "ride at your own risk, we're not liable for ANYTHING", so why is the Ontario system different?

Nobody can seem to give me answers... the insurance companies are raping the clubs, OFSC, and sledders and nobody seems to do anything about it (other than complain). Perhaps for the simple reason that nobody knows what to do.

Ont, I don't know a lot about what is going on up there other then what I have read in this post. Sounds like to me you need more people buying permits less people suing and more people willing to volunteer??? You can do something. 1st get a group of riders together and get the damn law changed so the idiots can't sue the clubs. 2nd make it mandatory for the permits, no permit no trail riding or lose your sled, I have to pay $30 usd every 2 years for each of my sleds,$120 usd, just so I can ride the trails or risk fines! :cussing: :cussing:

Here in Wisconsin I heard on the radio, I listen to talk radio, we are trying to get a law passed so fat people can't sue restaurants, food chains etc. It shows that this state is sick of the frivols lawsuits and wont stand for them. Don't come here and #### and moan because you ride ####ty trails, buy a permit, volunteer and work with the gov to get it fixed!!!!!!

I will apologize if I have offended anyone but this is how I feel!

Sounds like to me you need more people buying permits less people suing and more people willing to volunteer???

Sounds reasonable. I am also all for paying groomer drivers from my permit money, however with liability insurance so high, this simply isn't possible right now.

You can do something. 1st get a group of riders together and get the damn law changed so the idiots can't sue the clubs.

It'll take more than any group of riders I could muster up. We need a serious number of people (ie. all of the snowmobilers in Ontario) to fight the government. This won't happen, unfortunately.

2nd make it mandatory for the permits, no permit no trail riding or lose your sled, I have to pay $30 usd every 2 years for each of my sleds,$120 usd, just so I can ride the trails or risk fines!

I also agree with that. Fine people riding OFSC trails without permits and make the fines stick.

I've noticed that a lot of areas seemed to start regular grooming later this year than in previous. Perhaps it is because most damage to equipment happens early in lower snow conditions. I guess they don't want to be left with thier equipment out of commission later in the year, when most people tend to plan trips, and sledding holidays, with no money in the budget to fix it.
Regardless, the system of clubs that has been built over the last 20 years does not seem to be sustainable if a few things do not change. Maybe we need clubs to look after local trails only and have the province maintain the TOP system. I hate government intervention as much as the next guy, but there may not be any other way.

We just got back yesterday from a 717 mile loop tour.We started from Barrie on Sunday and headed to Huntsville.From there to North Bay and then to Sudbury then down to Parry Sound.The last day from Parry Sound down to Barrie . A nice ride but the WORST groomed trails I can remember in many, many years of buying OFSC permits! It was like riding the trails of the 70's and in some places worse!!!! The Northern trails were just OK, no grooming much there either!

In the total of 717 miles we ran into 1 ( YES JUST ONE) groomer in 5 days of riding!!!.This was the small groomer from the club North of the French River shuttle.

We were on the trails just about at 8 every morning and rode til sometimes late evening and only 1 groomer and that was on the second to last day back. The groomers marks on the sides of the snowbanks were so old that they were all drifting over! Between French River and Parry Sound were " THE WORST" trails I have ever ridden on.Many signs said 24 hour grooming--in what year was that???

We were constantly running water and slush and where the groomer did turn around-no signs that these trails ahead could be very dangerous for others not familiar with slush and water running.We turned back after the last water run and rode right down #69 into Pointe Au Baril.They should have put some type of warning across the trail where it picked up across highway #69.We ran into a small group of riders who had some lady riders with them and they were headed that way until we let they know what was in store for them a little ahead.They called the French River shuttle to be picked up and taken across so they didn't have to run into any trouble.

In one spot the gromer had broken thru the ice and slush and continued on.At that point whoever it was grooming in our opinion should have radioed these conditions to the club or at least put up some type of warning about what lay ahead but nothing!

I will defintely not purchase a permit from any of the Parry Sound places next year for sure!!! The main trail leaving the French River ( C trail) all the way to Parry Sound and beyond was something an atv wouldnt go on no less a sled! I have always supported the local clubs and the OFSC as to the money spent buying permits but after this trip may not do it again.

The best trails were around the Muskokas and Coldwater areas. I'm not a big ranter but after paying for a service at LEAST try and give the riders a little something for their money in the way of grooming trails!

We heard that the trails around Britt were very, very bad and when we got on them found out they were the pits to say the least.We were told that the Britt area club was squabbling about money and their trails showed it big time.

At a time when the sport is having so much problems I would think that these clubs would at least show they were a little interested in taking care of their trails so riders would come back again and patronize the various businesses but I guess they couldn't care less and you all know what--I couldn't are less either and will go where clubs appreciate your moneies spent!!!! For sure it won't be in the Parry Sound area again next time.

Nicely said Pete and exactly what I've been getting at myself. We have a trail system second to none here in Ontario but IMHO hardly worth the price of a permit when poorly groomed like this year. I have no issue with the price of permits but will be dammed if I'll continue to purchase one to ride on junk.
From the looks of it I'm not the only one and surely once they tally up the lost tourism dollars the powers to be just might realize it as well.

Rick.

Couldn't agree more...

I was out on Thursday night, and while most of the trails were superb, there was still some stretches (of main trails no less) that hadn't been groomed since the weekend. I know this because I was out on Sunday while they were grooming. What's up with that?? It used to be acceptable on Monday or even Tuesday to not have all the trails groomed after the weekend, but Thursday?? C'mon..

The thing that really irritates me about this is that the season started so late (first week of January), you'd think they'd want to keep the trails immaculate to make up for the shortened season, but no. Heck, I remember just a couple years ago going out for a mid-week ride and passing the groomer thinking 'Why are they grooming these trails - they're already awesome..'. I guess times have changed.

When I only get to ride about twice a week (down from virually everyday in years past), I don't consider it time well spent bashing over moguls for miles and miles. And I'm starting to wonder if the $160 I spent a few months ago was money well spent....

Originally posted by ZR Sled Head@Feb 2 2004, 08:41 AM

I wonder if this is an OFSC directive meant to bring down trail speeds.........Hmmmmmmmmm!!!!

Rick.
Rick , I can honestly tell you there has been nothing like that mentioned from the OFSC level.

Some fault might begin at the Club management level , not every volunteer is a good manager or has the desire to excell at the job the volunteered for. Or they have changed personel this past season and the new people just haven't caught on yet on how to manage a groomer or trails . I'm not trying to put out excuses but my own Club has run into this exact same problem this year , we changed some personel around and our trails have not been getting groomed to our standards and at the right times. Hopefully all that is fixed now , I gave them a blast of s**t last night . With our season close to an end here in southern ontario , we need to have the best trails we can from now on . It will either be fixed or I'm going to be regular Joe snowmobiler come april .

Hi Indy, I'm more venting than anything else, for sure volunteers are all but fed up with all the issues surrounding sledding these days.
It just seems a shame to pass a groomer at 3 in the afternoon or 9 in the morning when you know full well it's just wasted effort and even more importantly wasted money. For some clubs (especially the one I've mentioned) it's nothing new.
Do you have any idea of permit sales numbers this year and how much up or down from the norm they are?
It borders on criminal that some clubs (I won't name names but do know for a fact of at least two guilty clubs) intentionally sell fewer permits so as to receive more dollars through the matrix system. I know they have an agenda of their own but in the big picture of things it hurts the OFSC as a whole.

Somethings gotta give, I'm just not sure what.

Take care
Rick
:cool:

I llike to hear constructive venting , it brings us all aware of what's going on around the province and possible reasons why .

Lack of grooming is only going to hurt the Club even more , the Matrix is mostly based on grooming hours . If you do not groom this season the trail permits will cost your Club more next season and thus you have less money again . As someone said it's a no win situation and some people just haven't caught on yet or are so pi**ed at all the new rules and things they have to do that they might be less inclined to keep the trails perfectly smooth . it seems wide spread in some area's that grooming is not getting done then in other placesthey are going like crazy and everything is perfectly smooth. I haven't been up north or to any other area's this year so I have not seen conditions first hand.

Someone mentioned permit sales , at this time I do not know of the overall average . I spoke to the OFSC office in mid to late Dec about before Dec 1 sales and they said some were up and some were down and it was too early to tell . As for my own Club we are up about 45 over our 4 year average .

I feel your frustrations over rough trails after paying the big dollars for a permit . The only thing I can suggest is to let the Club know that you are unsatisfied with their performance ....but be prepared to help out .

I think I mentioned before our Club has had problems this year and I had to be the bad guy and give them a royal tuning in this past wednesday ( not something I liked to do ) but they like me are paid to do a job and if is not done right or on time things need to be said . Because of things like that I am about 80 % sure I will be stepping down from all Club and District positions this spring and asumming a new position as average JOE snowmobiler . It's not all the extra rules or paper work that I'm feed up with it's the lack of .....hmmm...... something , at the Club levels that I do not seem to be able to tolerate any longer .

Well one thing we all can do is try and spend some time helping the club where you ride. I spent some time last wed and thur grooming a trail I always ##### about. it was an interesting experience to say the least.....don't like rough trails?....learn some throttle and brake control.....!!!!!!

Originally posted by IndySKS@Feb 21 2004, 04:36 PM
....It's not all the extra rules or paper work that I'm feed up with it's the lack of .....hmmm...... something , at the Club levels that I do not seem to be able to tolerate any longer....
OK,

Now you've got me curious..... What exactly is going on in the Clubs that we as paying permit holders should be made aware of???

BTW, good comments from the 'inside' point of view. I'm tired of the Club members on board here telling the 'squeaky wheels' who complain about crappy trails to just shut up or volunteer. While I'd love to volunteer, I unfortunately have way too many other things on my plate to even squeeze a ride in here or there. I agree that the Clubs need volunteers to survive, and am thankful for all you guys out there who help maintain our trail systems. It's definitely a thankless job. But, there's lots of us who paid for our permits, paid for decent trails and have every right to complain when the quality starts to deteriorate.

Is this really a wide spread problem??? Or is it just a few areas where the Clubs just don't seem to care anymore?

Originally posted by The Hossman@Feb 22 2004, 05:22 PM
OK,

Now you've got me curious..... What exactly is going on in the Clubs that we as paying permit holders should be made aware of???



To sum it up..... "change" and the requirments to do more with less .

Over the past few years the demand on each Club to do more paper work and meet requirments for Risk mangement have taken their toll on the volunteers. It's very hard to get someone who has been doing the same things for many years to change his or her ways and understand the new ways of the world and why things have to be done now . Not to mention due to increased insurance costs we have less and less money to work with . Some Clubs in all areas of this Province are barely making it through . I just read today that TATA in District 14 is going to be closing some trails or not operating at all if things are not done. It's going to be a tough year to come....


I guess I'm just venting too ....




I was not preaching about volunteering . I realize not everyone is in the right location or has time to help , but there others who could spend a bit of time and help out and the firts thing you will probably hear after complaining to a tired out volunteer is ...would you like to help ?

Originally posted by IndySKS@Feb 23 2004, 02:56 PM
I just read today that TATA in District 14 is going to be closing some trails or not operating at all if things are not done.
I read the same Press Release & yes TATA has closed a couple of their local trails. The trail to The Sawmill south of Timmins being one. I know of a club that there system looks like a bowl of spaghetti. Three trails going from point A to Point B. Groom one & close the others.

To comment on Hossman's post. Sometimes when you're on a club executive like I was for 6 years people are resistant to change. Also it can get "cliquey", so that if you aren't in the clique, they'll go out of your way to make things harder for you.

Also, there were people on the executive that I have no idea why they were on. They couldn't make a decision on their own, would wait till the next meeting before bringing up something that should have been dealt w/ by themselves.

We weren't getting paid so it's not like they were lining their pockets.

spent some time last wed and thur grooming a trail I always ##### about



u sayin they are gonna let us groom ourselves??thats too cool.

Bill 101 has :cussing: us

Thank you OFSC :) -note the sarcasm

Pete/NY

I would like to tell you why the Parry Sound/Sudbury area trails were not groomed to well this season

answer

2 major reasons

#1-LACK OF SNOW

BIG TIME LACK OF SNOW

The last 2 years we have had less then half the normal snow

Hell it was a green Christmas :christmas: in Parry Sound(was at inlaws for Christmas)usually they have well over 2 feet on the ground by Christmas :christmas:

I went off trail in one place that I always go to each year and the snow was 1-2 feet at best when most years its a least waist deep

#2- not many people live between Parry Sound and Sudbury(not the city itself,I mean south of the city)

So your base of Vounteers is smaller :confused:

And Not many good paying Jobs in that area too,so less people buying permits/sleds which = less volunteers :wink:

Now does that make sense to you why the trails south of Sudbury towards Parry Sound were not that well groomed :unsure:

Trail here in Sudbury have been great this year despite the lack of snow,but we had a late start and looks like a early end :( unless we get that Colorado low this coming friday(8-12inches):thumbsup:

Food for thought


Funny I am the bad guy for biatching about the permit price yet its ok for some of you to biatch about the trail conditions

Talk about calling the kettle black :sly:

Hey Freeze,

Is that you in your avatar??? Of course, who else would it be. Dude, I thought you were like 90 years old or something with all the biatching you do about permit prices. You know how the older you get the crustier you get.... :D

Just kidding....

Your theory doesn't completely work around here though.... We got lots of snow this year, there's lots of good paying jobs (you already know about all the 'rich' folk from T.O. in their fancy SUV's and new sleds...), about the only thing not confirmed is the volunteer situation. I have heard rumblings from club members (like the comments above) that the club atmosphere and morale is starting to slide... rapidly.

So what can we do to ensure that he trails next year are back to the top-notch shape that we're accustomed to???

How can we rectify the insurance issue, for both our own machines, and for the OFSC's liability umbrella.

This is a serious problem. It jeopardises our favorite pastime as we know it. Ontario snowmobiler's really need to try and do something about it before we have nowhere to ride.

Feeezerburnt- I also have to agree with Hossman-snow was not the issue.In my post I said you could see that the groomer HAD been there but many days before.As for the permits sold and no jobs-sorry but thats not the problem either.Take a look at the areas way north ( WAWA) area.Theres not a majority of permits sold there either and the job base Im sure is alot less than in the Southern areas but yet their trails are groomed constantly.Granted they have more snow but then again a much smaller club and a lot more miles of trails to groom also.I can understand the smaller local trails not getting groomed much especially if the club in that area has to maintain Tops major trails also but the one I was commenting on is a major Tops trail that has constant traffic thus it should be maintained that much more.The trails around Sudbury south from the Sportsmans Lodge were in very good condition as I said previously.But when you arrive after a gruelling days ride and hear that the trail you just got off hasn't been groomed in the last 5 days-then there is something defintely wrong. As I mentioned earlier-I am not a complainer and in all my previous posts you would see I am always defending the OFSC's prices they charge for the trail permits as in life nothing is free!! I also applaude all the many volunteer who without, there would be no great trail system like we have now.As for voulunteering, I wish I could but seeing I am so far from the trail system its a little hard to do. I have been a snowmobile club member since the late 1970s and fully understand their problems.Its a fact that 5% of the club members do 100% of the work and thats true in all clubs.But what we do when we ride and stop at the many local eateries and places, we put a donation in their jar for the local club whose trails we were just riding on.Just wondering if you belong to your local club and do any volunteering because if you do than maybe you shouldn't complain about the high trail permit fees because you would understand firsthand how much it costs to maintain a length of trail both in money and volunteer help.Hopefully next season things will be alittle better all the way around as it looks like this season has had it.Have a good Summer!

I have complained about trail conditions in the past, but never about permit prices. I have also complained about lack of grooming whether it be this season or last. If liability insurance is eating up the majority of the expense of the trail permit, we should be fighting to bring this down to an acceptable level.

Does anybody have a link to a breakdown in the permit price vs. what the clubs get and what goes to liability insurance? I have seen numbers tossed around, but never know what to believe.

I would like to see this whole volunteer "issue" get put to bed. Groomer drivers MUST be paid, somehow, some way. In my opinion, there should be no excuse that nobody volunteered to drive the groomer.

As for club morale, I can understand... if club members are being pooped on for their efforts, why should they proceed if they're unappreciated? That's why we need to get money involved. Somebody should be compensated for putting x hours into grooming each week. Pay a somebody $10/hour to drive the groomer full-time for 8 weeks in the winter.

My biggest complaint is paying almost $200 for a permit and going out and riding on trails that haven't been groomed on a regular basis or haven't been groomed at all for whatever reason. Nobody seems to be held accountable (should volunteers be held accountable for anything? Probably not). All of these theories as to why grooming wasn't done don't help either.

If x snowmobile club said "sorry, no grooming because (a) the groomer driver is sick, (b) the groomer is broken, © no money, or (d) no volunteers", I am sure people would help out more.

Sorry to be long winded, but this is a complex problem. I would like to hear other's thoughts.

I want an answer

Has anyone notice the drop in riders on trails the past 3yrs???

I have notice a bigtime drop in traffic here :slick:

I brush trails early season riding-that is my contribution :thumbsup:

As for the trail up in around Wawa/Hornepayne etc

They have a lot less traffic then the Central Ont area so trails don't get beat as bad

As for the Britt area I hear their is/was a conflict involving club members and another prob they have is they use to groom with a smaller groomer and then they got rid of them and got a big groomer,which in turn created problems with tigh trails and swampy areas,resulting in lack of grooming in some areas where a lighweight groomer can pass and the heavy one can't,we have that problem here in certain place were they were previously groomed but now with the new bigger groomers can not go :(

As for breakdown of $$$ I am sure IndySKS or Trailblazer can sorta clarify this :thumbsup:

Ya crusty 29yr ole FB :p :blahblah:

As for trails being like they use to be,I ain't complaining about trails here in Sudbury,they have not changed much since 89 and are up to the same standards as usual,which keeps me smiling :D I do understand to expect a dif in grooming in low snow years,that is common sense :thumbsup:

We have a good base of sledders here to have enuff $$$ but other areas don't have the luxury of having a pop of 160,000plus here in Sudbury

BTW our club was sued for $60,000 a couple of yrs ago,sad :ohmy:

Oh ya throwing $$$$ at the problem is not going to solve it

It just creates more problems

The real problem is volunteer morale and liability issues not $$$$

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Mar 3 2004, 02:27 PM
Oh ya throwing $$$$ at the problem is not going to solve it

It just creates more problems

The real problem is volunteer morale and liability issues not $$$$
Well, I do agree, we need to get more people involved in the clubs, and breathe some new life and new ideas (read: younger people) into them. Out with the dead wood, in with the new. And get people involved in volunteering. Heck, up until I started reading SW I never even knew that volunteers cleared and maintained the trails I ride every year!! It's not just my ignorance, it's just that people don't think about it. We assume our permit $$ go into maintenance, not the insurance man's pocket.

Which is where I disagree with your statement. $$$ IS the problem!! The insurance issue is HUGE! Every year the clubs have less and less to work with, while we pay more and more to ride the trails. The only winner is the insurance company that claims it's going broke! True, the insurance industry is hurting. For years they have been investing our premiums into various equities which due to some serious instability in the market in the past few years has lost them millions of dollars. And we as the consumer are the ones forced to make up these losses. The OFSC has been hit real hard with liability coverages, and I don't expect that the rates are going to drop any time soon.

What can we as the average snowmobiler do to rectify the problems?? We can't do much about the insurance issue - the government is about the only entity capable of making any changes there. But we can certainly let our voices be heard. There was in the most recent edition of the OFSC's propaganda magazine (Ontario Snowmobiler) a mailer directed to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. I would urge each and every one of you to fill this out and throw it in a mailbox. It's worth a try......

I noticed that you mentioned up until you became a member of SWRules you did not know that volunteers maintained trails

Well I betcha most feel the same way

They see the price go up so they naturally think it is for paid workers to maintain trails aka MTO

In todays fast pace life,volunteerism is no longer a priority :(

The older volunteers did volunteer for their enjoyement of their local trails,which makes total sense to me IMO

They did it to ride their trails,but now people are taking advantage of their hard work and then turn around and complain about trail quality

AKA they are sick of working for someonelses enjoyement who does not take nor have the time to help out

But for the past 10yrs the OFSC has been promoting itself as a "tourist sport"

Tourism = business

Volunteerism = fun and self gratification

Why should someone volunteer to help someone else make a profit off their back :ohmy:

Originally posted by OntRider@Mar 3 2004, 01:01 PM
...I would like to see this whole volunteer "issue" get put to bed. Groomer drivers MUST be paid, somehow, some way. In my opinion, there should be no excuse that nobody volunteered to drive the groomer.

As for club morale, I can understand... if club members are being pooped on for their efforts, why should they proceed if they're unappreciated? That's why we need to get money involved. Somebody should be compensated for putting x hours into grooming each week. Pay a somebody $10/hour to drive the groomer full-time for 8 weeks in the winter.

My biggest complaint is paying almost $200 for a permit and going out and riding on trails that haven't been groomed on a regular basis or haven't been groomed at all for whatever reason. Nobody seems to be held accountable (should volunteers be held accountable for anything? Probably not). All of these theories as to why grooming wasn't done don't help either.....

Now I know FB is not going to like this but.... here goes:

I agree with you OntRider. The whole idea of volunteering for anything anymore is kind of outdated. Nobody does anything for free anymore, at least for the most part. Personally, I'd be happy to pay $250 for a permit that guaranteed that the trails would be groomed all of the time. At least then I could feel good about the money I spent. But now, with the season pretty much done, I can't help but feel shafted for the 6 weeks of riding on trails that were marginal at best.

I am not suggesting that volunteering doesn't work. It just doesn't work reliably. I'd be more than happy to volunteer. But, you know how it goes. 10% does the work of the the other 90%. I've brought this up before - maybe it's time to abandon the 'club system' and pay a private contractor to maintain the trails.

The BIGGEST issue here, and I don't know that everyone realizes it, is the insurance issue. That is why permit prices are sky-rocketing. That is why clubs receive less and less every year. That is why they don't have the resources to properly maintain the trails.


BTW, Rick - Thanks for letting us take over your thread.

But now, with the season pretty much done, I can't help but feel shafted for the 6 weeks of riding on trails that were marginal at best.

I'm with you... considering we got off to a late start, I don't buy the "lack of funding" excuse for not grooming. No snow = no grooming = no money spent. If nobody volunteered to groom, then it didn't get groomed. There's nobody we can get mad at. I was disappointed on a couple rides this year where the trails hadn't been groomed from the past weekend and it was Thursday.

I am not suggesting that volunteering doesn't work.* It just doesn't work reliably.* I'd be more than happy to volunteer.* But, you know how it goes.* 10% does the work of the the other 90%.* I've brought this up before - maybe it's time to abandon the 'club system' and pay a private contractor to maintain the trails.

Agreed. If somebody volunteers to do something, and doesn't do it, nobody can complain. After all, they said they'd do something for nothing. Our society doesn't appreciate the volunteer system anymore. As you said, nobody does anything for free anymore. Some money exchanging hands is required to keep people "motivated".

How about a system where resorts and businesses who depend on groomed snowmobile trails paying more? I am not sure how much a "trail sponsor" contributes now nor do I know where that money goes. I think this sort of thing is how the trails get groomed in some areas of upstate NY.

Dare I say that perhaps the MNR should be more involved? I know, I know, getting the government involved can't be a good thing, but at least there would be accountability. Groomer driver would be a "position" with the MNR and if the work isn't done, that person gets fired.


BTW, Rick - Thanks for letting us take over your thread.

Yes, sorry Rick :)

No worries, I'm enjoying reading everyone elses thoughts on the subject. Kinda figured that I'd get flamed bringing the whole thing up..........worked out just fine!

Rick
:D

Are you guys that gullible to think if we had paid workers the permit would be only $250

You guys are kidding yourselves :blahblah:

Hell its nearing $200 when it is ran by volunteers.

Do you think PAID workers want peanuts :lol:

Look for at least near $500 if not more if you plan on paying workers to maintain/groom trails

Once again you are HYJACKING the hard years of volunteered work that Volunteers have put forth for the trails :cussing:

You guys are attacking the very people that have made and kept our sport viable over the past 3 decades!!!!!

These volunteers are NOT expendable

Food for thought :sly:

Maybe some of us are expecting too much

That ever cross your mind??? :unsure:

How about a system where resorts and businesses who depend on groomed snowmobile trails paying more?

Duh?!?! :dazed:

These guys are the ones making the $$$ off the back of volunteers yet do not redistribute $$$ back to trails

Remember this next time you stay or by gas at one of your trail stops,most don't give or sponsor trails,yes some do but 95% don't

Guys you have a place to ride if you want paid workers

By all means go and enjoy the Haliburton Forest private trails :sly:

Oh Boy, I knew that crusty old bugger FB would get outta joint on that one. :D

You have some very good points. And neither me nor OntRider are attacking volunteers. I have said in numerous posts on this subject time and time again - THANK YOU too all who pitch in to make our sport viable in Ontario. Myself and another fellow SW member went out early this season to clean up some brush out of the trails. That's not the point....

The point is that the maintenance on Ontario trails is definitely declining in recent years. Am I 'expecting too much'...??? I don't think so. I expect the MOT to clear the highways after a storm - and I expect the groomer to be out when the trails look like the moguls from the local ski hill. I am not dreaming. There's been a lot of riders noticing the deteriorating service provided by the local clubs.

The $250 figure was just an example. What it would actually cost is theoretical at this point. The real issue (I am repeating myself) with permit costs is the insurance premiums!!

The real important thing is to band together rather than argue amongst ourselves. The OFSC seems to be in some real trouble, and the problem is the increasing permit costs, decreasing ridership, and mis-managed clubs. So yes Freezerburnt - you are RIGHT..... but for the wrong reasons. Permit prices are too high - but not because us Toronto-area yuppies demand the best trails and 24 hr grooming. Because the insurance man is robbing the OFSC and each one of us blind....

BTW, good analogy with Haliburton Forest. I've never been, don't like the idea of spending $30 to ride when I already spent $160. See, I'm a cheap old bugger just like you.... :(

Once again

You want paid workers

That has nothing to do with insurance

Paid workers will up the price bigtime

We are getting most trails groomed and brushed free(man power wise)

I just got my Northern Sno Trailsnewspaper Today(coincidence considering our topic here) :sarcasm:

It encompasses the

Near North Trail Association(North Bay area)
Sudbury Trail Plan(Sudbury area)
Parry Sound Snowmobile Association(Parry Sound Area)

It put forth your idea of paid workers and says exactly what I said about the price tripling if not more

It also tells about volunteer burnout,idiots suing ,lack of snow late season,loss of land access etc

You should read it and will see that just upping the prices and paying worker to do what you wnat is a lot more complicated then you guys have said

FB,

If there's a way to post it.. I'd be interested...

Chris

Come on, Freezer, give us a little more credit... we're intelligent individuals. I am throwing out ideas. I didn't say that my way was best, but at least hear me out. I cannot give accurate dollar figures. You know that.

Once again you are HYJACKING the* hard years of volunteered work that Volunteers have put forth for the trails :cussing:

I look at it as taking away the pressure away from people who are doing work and getting nothing but flak for it.

Remember this next time you stay or by gas at one of your trail stops,most don't give or sponsor trails,yes some do but 95% don't

There's little, if anything, that can be done about this... if they don't want to pay, they don't have to. I hope the clubs are asking though...

By all means go and enjoy the Haliburton Forest private trails* :sly:

Been there, had a good time, but the forest is just too small. You can ride almost every inch of their trails in a good day.

It also tells about volunteer burnout,idiots suing ,lack of snow late season,loss of land access etc


Volunteer burnout? Sure, I can definitely buy that. They're not getting credit for the work they do. There aren't enough people volunteering, so the few that do are doing all of the work. I appreciate and respect that. You cannot expect people to bust their butts, get nothing for it, and just keep coming back for more. I respect these guys. I appreciate these guys.

Idiots suing? Blame our Ontario judicial system. They're the morons that let this happen.

Lack of snow? None of us can do anything about this. Anybody who blames this on a club is an idiot.

Loss of land access? Blame this on the guy with the excessively loud machines (yes, guys, I'm sorry, I'm anti-pipe/anti-silencer), guys who don't understand what "Stay On Trail" means, those who think everybody should be awake at 3am, etc. There's little we can do about this.

You should read it and will see that just upping the prices and paying worker to do what you wnat is a lot more complicated then you guys have said

There's no doubt in my mind that it's more complicated than any of us think... I am not a business manager, I do not have an MBA, I am just putting ideas forth.

I want to be able to ride on groomed trails 7 days a week throughout the winter. How do we make it happen into the future?

Please don't take everything I say personnal :thumbsup:

I try not to take the jabs personnal :crazy:

The problem is it is only a minority like us willing to discuss this subject

If the gov gets more involved with paying workers

It can have a lot of ramafications if not done right :sly: look at bill 101

That is something I am scared of

Are we expecting too much???

It is nice to have interconnected trails all throughout ONT that you can ride from one end to the other :)

How long have we had end to end trails here in Ont???

BUT is that something we have taking for granted :wink:

I think the fact of the matter is that most of us do demand high quality trails, that as you said, span the entire province. Is there any sense to going backwards??? Snowmobiling has (despite shrinking #'s of permit sales in recent years) gained popularity in the past 20 years. And the people who ride today are of a completely different mindset than the people who rode 10 or 20 years ago.

Again, do we demand too much?? No way. If the trails were always going to be maintained the way they were over this season, I would have to seriously consider getting out of the sport. It's no fun to ride 50 miles on a mogul-infested trail. Maybe we're spoiled for having it so good for so many years. But, there must be reason why Ontario is known world-wide as the best place to go snowmobiling. Period.

Fb, you're exactly right in that we need more people to care about this problem. For the most part there's only been the 3 of us hashing this out. That's disappointing.

And BTW, I don't take any of this personally. I'd go for a ride with you anytime. During stops we could exchange some useless sled info, or just biatch about the s****y trails.

Chris

Hossman
It's no fun to ride 50 miles on a mogul-infested trail.

Come and ride here in Sudbury :D

Our trails are always smooth :thumbsup:

Just ask Ontrider,he comes up here once in a blue moon SWRules

ps don't ask Ontrider,about the Chemmy to Dowling north trail though :p

I guess I am lucky to live here in the Sudbury area

As I am very satisfied with our trails :thumbsup:

Like I said they have not changed much since 89 but they have been great trails since day 1 :sly:

Yes we demand high quality trails,but is that feasible all the time :slick:

Just got back from Sudbury (stayed at Sportman's Lodge for Friday and Saturday night)... I wish I could say the trails were excellent, but I'd be lying. I rode the C trail down from Shining Tree to the Capreol intersection and it hadn't been groomed for at least a few days. I've never seen it worse actually in the few times I've been to Sudbury. C206D north to Shining Tree was rough (also not groomed) on Saturday morning, but I heard the groomer was going north that afternoon.

Fact of the matter remains that the grooming is way down this year. There is speculation that this is being done to slow people down and I am starting to believe it. Unfortunately, people aren't going to tolerate this crap much longer. I guess when the OFSC ceases to exist because nobody buys permits, they'll have much less to worry about.

Unless something is done, quality, organized snowmobiling in Ontario is in jeopardy. Period.

Originally posted by OntRider@Mar 4 2004, 07:35 PM
If somebody volunteers to do something, and doesn't do it, nobody can complain. After all, they said they'd do something for nothing.
My problem w/ that if the club asked you to do something & you said yes then in the end didn't do it, what good is that? Maybe if the person had said no, the club would have found someone that would have done it. I had problems w/ members of my club's executive that were there, but did nothing.

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Mar 3 2004, 02:21 PM
As for the Britt area I hear their is/was a conflict involving club members
I would hope that the OFSC and/or PSSD has been made aware of this situation. Personality conflicts do not help "the big picture". That club is grooming TOPC which is one of the main links between southern & northern Ontario.

During our trip last week, we came across a couple of trails that are maintained by a club and during 3 of the 4 annual trips thru that area, the condition of TOP A sucked. TOP trails maintained by small clubs in even more isolated areas were in good shape. I've emailed the OFSC & TATA to let them know what we encountered.

The Ministry of Tourism loves to promote our sport w/ their glossy brochures, but they had better wake up & smell the coffee.

Revrnd- yes I made the Parry Sound club aware of the terrible condition of the Tops trail from French River shuttle all the way South into Parry Sound to the Jolly Roger Motel. Their trail co-ordinator e mailed me back a nice letter saying that because of the low snow conditions and problems with people and money and equipment issues were why the trails were not in good shape. I also e mailed the OFSC TWICE and NEVER heard a single word from them!!!! The fella that ran the shuttle had warned us that the trails from French River down to around Britt were terrible as the clubs were arguing over money.In fact in our entire trip of 717 miles the ONLY groomer we saw was north of the French river and it was the shuttle guys Father who was running it. When we got to the Jolly Roger motel we were told by another rider that the Tops trail had been CLOSED for 4 days for some kind of maintence??? NO clue as we saw no one working on it in its entire length. When we got around the Muskokas the trails were superbly groomed all the way down to Barrie.

Originally posted by revrnd@Mar 7 2004, 06:37 PM
My problem w/ that if the club asked you to do something & you said yes then in the end didn't do it, what good is that? Maybe if the person had said no, the club would have found someone that would have done it. I had problems w/ members of my club's executive that were there, but did nothing.
I've since heard from reliable sources that most groomer drivers are paid AND it's been a political decision by some clubs to NOT groom in order to keep speeds (and lawsuits caused by speed-related accidents) down. Something has to give...

Originally posted by OntRider@Mar 8 2004, 12:42 AM
I've since heard from reliable sources that most groomer drivers are paid AND it's been a political decision by some clubs to NOT groom in order to keep speeds (and lawsuits caused by speed-related accidents) down. Something has to give...
Well, that will certainly keep the speeds down... but it will also keep ridership down. I would seriously consider getting of the sport if this is the way the clubs intend to avoid lawsuits. This winter was disappointingly short, and the trails were a little less than stellar. That really irks me after paying more and more every year for the privilege of riding the OFSC trails.

I can appreciate the OFSC being concerned about frivolous lawsuits. Maybe it's time the government has stepped in to make ensure that the morons who go out and hurt themselves, or the families of the morons that kill themselves, on OFSC trails CANNOT sue them for their own actions.

As OntRider said, something has to give.

Originally posted by The Hossman@Mar 8 2004, 01:45 AM

As OntRider said, something has to give.
Usually when something gives there is a big crash !

It's going to be a tough time for all Clubs and the OFSC in the next couple years .

Originally posted by IndySKS@Mar 8 2004, 01:02 PM
It's going to be a tough time for all Clubs and the OFSC in the next couple years .
It's going to be an even tougher time if the clubs are not going to groom and continue asking for $200/year for a permit. You can certainly bet that some people are just going to give it up. Next year, we all know damned well the excuse for the lack of grooming will be low permit sales. It's a vicious cycle with no end.

I predict the demise of the OFSC in the next few years unless laws can be changed such that liability insurance is kept to an absolute minimum and the OFSC is liable for nothing more than property damage.

Originally posted by The Hossman@Mar 8 2004, 02:45 AM
I can appreciate the OFSC being concerned about frivolous lawsuits. Maybe it's time the government has stepped in to make ensure that the morons who go out and hurt themselves, or the families of the morons that kill themselves, on OFSC trails CANNOT sue them for their own actions.


IMHO, this is the single largest problem currently facing the OFSC (and us). If lawsuits drop, insurance premiums will drop, grooming will improve. Done.

:withstupid: IMHO your humble opinion is pretty close to what we need. The question really is, will help / a solution come in time? Damm I hope so.

Rick
:cool:

A few of us were having this conversation up at Pinestone ..... how about a Government Run and administered liability policy (similar to Manitoba's auto policy) separate from our individual fire, theft, collision policies?

If a government appointed judge was handing out government money, the awards (if any) would become lower no?

Quebec has a similar system as well, included with the cost of a trail permit.

Trust me when I say I don't like the Government controlling more than they have to, but this enormous problem with liberal payouts for a$$es that injure/kill themselves via their own carelessness has got to stop.

If I injure myself, my own insurance company should take care of me and my sled ... the clubs cannot be held responsible for providing a playground.

my club has been seeing an increasing number of fake permits on the trails this year.how do these morons expect well groomed trails when they make and sell their own permits :cussing: i think the total lack of brain cells by a minority of sledders will not help the permit prices next year........

Originally posted by powder@Mar 11 2004, 03:14 AM
my club has been seeing an increasing number of fake permits on the trails this year.
That's just not right ... not only should they be charged with trespassing and / or forced to buy a legit permit, they should be charged with "fraud" and prosecuted to the full extent of the law ........ using OFSC trails by any improper mean is "THEFT" and should be treated as such...

POWDER- just wondering what your club did about those cheapskates who were running with fake permits??Did they turn them in to the police? Youre right as they would be the first jerks to complain about ungroomed trails.