I've never really paid any attention to Yamaha because for some reason, I never really cared for them. But with the new 3 cylinder 4-stroke, it sounds like a great option. A 4-stroke just makes sense in some ways. Oil consumption, gas mileage, engine life.....
So, with that being said, please ignore my ignorance about Yamaha.
I have a couple of questions:
How has the RX engine held up so far the past seasons? How do you think the new RS engine will be?
What kind of gas mileage have people been getting with the RX and how good should the RS be?
How has the front A-arm suspension held up? I've read places where some people were having problems with Ski-Doo A-arms and bulkheads bending? How have the Yami's held up? (like I said, I haven't paid any attention because I haven't been interested)
In my opinion, Yamaha did a good job sending out that DVD with my new SnowTech magazine. I'd probably not really heard much about all the new stuff from them. Although I did just read a 2005 report on another website where they were praising the new RS engine and the RS Rage. I think that the Rage looks like a winner to me. I might be purchasing a new sled next season and was leaning toward a REV Renegade, but the RS Rage definitely deserves a look.
Any answers, comments and opinions welcome. Just trying to catch up on my Yami knowledge.
Thanks!
:withstupid: :blush:
:D SWRules

I know of 3 different riders that have all put on over 10,000 miles on RX-1's and a Warrior with no engine issues. Valves don't need to be checked until 24K. Oil changed for the first time at 500 miles along with the filter then oil every 2,000 miles and the filter every 12,000. The only parts needed for any of these sleds have been idler wheels and 1 W arm in the rear skid.

I have averaged 17 MPG's US Gallons with my Warrior and I can honestly say that no sled has left me in the dust. If I haven't beat it I'm on its tail.

As far as the new 3 cylinder goes, I see no reason to believe that with Yamaha's track record with their 4 strokes to think it won't be every bit as reliable. It isn't as powerful as the Genesis 4 cylinder but is lighter. The engine has a longer stroke bringing the RPM's down which allowed Yamaha to do away with the gear reduction and attach the clutch directly to the crank like a traditional sled.
I have talked to a number of people that have driven the 05's and they all say the triple will run with the 4 up to about 100 then the 4 walks away.
Remember, Yamaha designed this triple just for sleds.

I have heard of no issues with the A arms.

I think the Rage and Vector will both be excellent sleds.

Thanks for your reply!
Anyone else?

I have an 03 RX-1 and have had no problems whatsoever with the engine. Still on my original belt too. I had some issues with handling, but these have been addressed over the last 2 years.

Haven't heard of any A Arm problems.

Mighty-Welcome Back! Where have you been?

I run with 2 RX 1's in our group. I can not recall any major engine issues as of yet. One is an 03 while the second is an 04. Only issue I can think of was on the 03 the carbs were not set right at the dealer making for higher than normal fuel consumption and they seem to use a little bit of oil on long extended high rpm days. Had some cold starting problems in -35 c weather. Good thing they were close to an electrical outlet and a hair dryer was used to warm them up a bit. The 03 still has a ski lift issue even with the 04 up dates but the 04 handles a lot better than the 03. No issues what so ever with a-arms or bulk heads but both these sleds rarely see major off trail riding or ditch banging. The 03 has abnormally heavy steering which we have not been able to get rid of. The 03 also broke the transfer rods on the rear suspension which also damaged the track. Almost a 2 month wait until parts came in. This happened with less than 500 km's on the sled. No issues since. Fit and finish for the most part has been typical Yamaha. Makes some of the other manufactures sleds look like they were made in a barn. The only real gripe the 03 owner has is the seat. As of now he is on his 3rd and a forth is on the way. Not sure yet what the problem is as the dealer and Yammy's rep are a little bit puzzled. We think we have it figured out but have yet to find a solution. What appears to happen is the seat foam seems to take on moisture. Since this sled is stored in a non heated shop it appears the moisture freezes. It also seems to accumulate on the sides of the seat just under where the seat humps up at the back. The material starts to appear wavy and then will eventually crack and split open. It would seem the seat hols the water which freezes. Having the exhaust running under the seat seems to thaw the ice after a long ride but it freezes again at the end of the day. This repetition seems to damage the seat or at least it appears that way to us. Any one else experience this ? His is not the only one as we have seen others. Some were 04's with very few km's on them. Seems to be it. These are experiences we have had as a group. I have ridden the 03 and do a lot of riding with the owner. Just my $.02

Rob

Yellowbelly the rage definately deserves a look. It even has me interested, lol.
What does concern me is the weight. Why won't they publish the weight? I myself would never by a sled that i didnt know the weight of . IF the weight is reasonable and only a bit heavier than the ZX chassis i am used to then they might have a winner here. I am not buying sleds every year, now that the kids are eating up my $$$$. So something that would last a bit longer would be great. I am sure the power could be bumped up a bit from 120 also.

The Rage looks good and I'd love a test drive on one, but....... it's 25 hp. short as compared to an RX1, and I don't think the 50 lb. weight loss is going to make up for this as far as performance goes. I am really curious about the handling though.

Perm, you have hit it right on the head. As some of us get into the "responsibility years" we start looking for long term machinery, cars, sleds, boats etc...
The three cylinder Yammi has tweeked my interest as well, especially after reading such positive reviews. Weight becomes a factor, as it takes all my back can handle to dig my ZX out of a snowbank should I get stuck. I can't help but think the longer we wait, the lighter they will make these sleds.
Built in a barn, good one Rob.

I still haven't seen a weight on this-The mag shows the RX-1 drops 30 pounds, but doesn't give a weight. Someone posted on this forum a couple weeks ago-a guy snow tested it and had nothing but good to say about it. I like the idea of the 30% adjustable suspension though.

Are you guys saying that Yamaha's are built for old guys??????

Damn, I am getting old. :D

I guess it's hard to argue with, there's a lot of 'responsible' 'mature' riders who ride Yammies. It's kind of nice to be in such distinguished company!

I have to admit though, that the new Vector (no long-track's for me..) is really perking my interest. If, as Perm said, they could make it handle like a ZX (like my old one), I'd buy a dozen. I'm anxiously waiting for someone I know to buy one so I can try it out for 'free'. In theory, it should be just what I'm looking for. I really like the RX-1, but found it a bit of a handful when really pushing it through the corners. If it shed say 50lbs, it should really shine in the handling department. And I don't mind losing 25HP that 99% of the time I wouldn't use anyways....

Hossman-will your dealer let you snow test any of them? Do it on his dime......

Originally posted by The Hossman@Mar 15 2004, 11:51 PM
I don't mind losing 25HP that 99% of the time I wouldn't use anyways....
Yeah, you would :p

Originally posted by konkinj@Mar 16 2004, 11:55 AM
Yeah, you would :p
Yeah, you're right.. :devil:

But, I certainly could use the extra $$ I saved over buying an RX-1!

hossman sell me that srx when u are done with it i need spare one

Originally posted by bigken@Mar 16 2004, 08:14 PM
hossman sell me that srx when u are done with it i need spare one
Sell it??? :inlove:

I meant I was thinking a Vector as well as my SRX...

Nah, just joking... a new sled is probably not in the cards next year.... but if it is, I'll keep ya posted!

BTW, what do you need a 'spare' for?? I thought they ran forever!

hossman i need one for speed run and drags and one for trial rideing im getting tired of changing the set ups all the time . too bad yamaha is not making 2 stock 3 cly . any more

I was in the Yami dealer in Sudbury today, and the salesman quoted me $12500cdn for a Vector with reverse. Seems a little high to me. Anyone else done any comparitive pricing?

Well Guys, I was at the 'Yamaha Show' tonight here in Barrie. Pretty pathetic as 'shows' go - only 6 sleds in a banquet hall, but better than nothing. They had the RX-1, RX Warrior, RS Rage, RS Vector(X2) and the RS Venture. Basically all the same platform, but very different machines. Here's some of the interesting highlights:

RX-1/Warrior: Shed 30lbs from last year. For example, last year's 'Pro-action' skid was the heaviest on the market, this year's Mono-shock RA suspension is the lightest (so they say). The coolest thing is the adjustable dampening right at your left foot, on the side of the tunnel. And it works!! Tried it. The new seat sits a bit higher, and it's way softer (and wider) than previous.

RS Vector/Rage: They are claiming 519lbs. That in itself is pretty impressive for a 4-stroke with 120HP. Looks like it will be the most nimble, trailable 4-stroke on the market. Has a lower-profile front suspension than the RX-1 for flatter cornering (shorter spindles, different geometry). Top speed is around 100MPH.

It looks like the short track versions (RX-1 & RS Vector) are best for aggressive trail riding, while the long track versions (Warrior & Rage) are most apt to long miles and comfortable cruising.

The RX-1 was in the new metallic red (with red a-arms and exhaust) - looks sweet!! But for my money, I'd have to go with the Vector. I like the idea of a more nimble, more precise, and easier to throw around 4-stroke. The only place I'd see the 120 horses to be a little 'small' would be on the lake. But lake riding is for sissies anyways...

Now for the shocker - pricing. The Vector lists at $11,999.00. The RX-1 lists at $12,699.00. Only $700 buys you 25HP. Hmmm.... Something to think about. Also need to consider that the RX-1 and the Vector just might cost the same amount of $$ to insure, as they're both 1000cc machines....

You know, Yamaha has been chastised for dropping 2-strokes all together in favour of 4-stroke technology. But, looking at their line-up and the improvements they've made in a relatively short time, they might just be positioning themselves to be the leader in environmentally friendly and high performance machines as we approach the 2006 emissions mandate. Maybe they're not for everybody, but the 4-stroke snowmobile is definitely here to stay.

Nice report Hossman. Now if they can just get the sticker down on the Vector they'll be in business.

The thing is though, we were discussing at the show, the Vector is comparable to a 600 2-stroke. Checked the prices on a 600 lately?? For instance, a REV 600 SDI lists for $10,849. True, it's still $1000 more expensive, but you need to consider what you're getting. Not saying the Skidoo is in any way inferior, but the Vector is definitely going to be more expensive to build. It's remarkable that the price is as close as it is.

Let's face it, the cost of all the manufacturer's offerings are getting out-of-hand.....

Lifting the front and rear of the vector felt the same as lifting my buddies Viper ER. Definately lighter than my Warrior.

Originally posted by The Hossman@Mar 18 2004, 09:28 PM


Let's face it, the cost of all the manufacturer's offerings are getting out-of-hand.....
Yes, I guess you are right. It's becoming a rich mans sport. The advantage of the Yami is that the engine should outlive the chassis. The local Polaris dealer made a comment to me that a two stroke is a 8000 mile motor. Some live a little longer, but most don't. If this new powerplant is up to Yamaha standards, the suspension works as well as they say and they have it a little lighter then should be a real sweet piece.
Funny the MSRP at the show was 11,990.., but the dealer in Sudbury quoted me 12,500 this afternoon? Perhaps reverse was the difference?

Originally posted by CORY9@Mar 18 2004, 11:28 PM
The local Polaris dealer made a comment to me that a two stroke is a 8000 mile motor. Some live a little longer, but most don't. If this new powerplant is up to Yamaha standards, the suspension works as well as they say and they have it a little lighter then should be a real sweet piece.

I remember being at my dealer last fall and throwing some questions at his service manager about the durability of the Genesis Extreme Engine. He laughed and took me over to a R-1 that was in to have the front fork seals replaced and he fired it up to let me hear it run and it sounded normal to me. He then told me to look at the odometer and I almost sh*t, 101,000 miles w00t He said that the only service the bike required over those miles were for routine maintenance. Valve adjustments, Tires, Brakes, Chains and sprockets. The guy changed his own oil (mobile 1 15w-30). I'm looking forward to only worrying about Idlers, Hyfax, the track and carbides for the next several thousand miles and not whether or not I need to re-ring to get my performnance back like I did on my MachZ's over the years :D

I know what some of the nay sayers are thinking; a sled is harder on an engine and won't last as long. Well you're probably right, so lets cut the 101,000 miles in half, I'll take 50,500 miles on my engine! Oh yea, the R-1 at that milage still runs strong according to the service manager. So who knows how long that engine will keep pushing...............

Hossman-

Nice report. I didn't make the Yamaha show here-wish I had-I can't get the Johnny Skeptical to run on my computer from the website. Would have loved to have seen the new sleds!

WOW! w00t That's impressive Mighty!
Thanks for the awesome report, Hossman!
SWRules

hi yellowbelly! i am yamaha biased but my friend is 100% skidoo and when he told me he was hoping to buy a 2005 rev renegade i thought maybe i would look at it too. well together we have spoken to a bunch of different owners and my friend spent alot of time on line getting whatever information he could. i swear this guy doesn't buy a pair of socks without doing his homework first. just about all loved the machine for its ride, agility, positioning, handling and decent weight. however, i have gotten mixed answers on fuel economy only that the 600 sdi seems to be the choice motor. all have said oil consumption is noticeably worse than expected no matter how you drive it and at $12.00 per litre (quart) here in newfoundland, canada thats not good news. also, the apparent positioning of the fuelpump or some sensor or something makes the machine stall or starve at anything less than 1/4 tank. skidoo chatline owners are extremely fruious with this.
but wait there's more. new, engine compression numbers are around 140-145 psi and owners are finding compression numbers down to 100 psi or less after only 3000-4000 kms(1800-2400miles). summarizing, i'm sticking with yamaha and my friend (still skidoo dedicated) decided to wait another year and see what, if anything, happens with respect to these problems. you might want to verify some of this before you part with your money or just buy a yammie!

Bob,

Very rare to hear someone say something besides Yamaha is less than perfect on this forum. Hadn't heard about the compression and stalling before. I agree with Mighty. I think the 4-Strokes will last a lot longer than the 2 stroke. Saw an article on a guy put 10K miles (MILES) on his RX-1 last season without any mechanical faults-that says a lot right there!

Originally posted by permafrost@Mar 15 2004, 02:51 PM
Yellowbelly the rage definately deserves a look. It even has me interested, lol.
What does concern me is the weight. Why won't they publish the weight?
Only number I have seen on a Vector is 519 Dry. This is apparently what the dealers have been told. Make of it what you will, but it IS the only number I have seen so far.

Originally posted by QCRider@Mar 19 2004, 09:11 PM
Only number I have seen on a Vector is 519 Dry.
Lighter than I would have guessed. Thats about the same as the new Mach.

Originally posted by rob7374@Mar 22 2004, 06:43 PM
Lighter than I would have guessed. Thats about the same as the new Mach.
Yeah, it's not bad. IF that is the true weight. Time will tell. I guess the fact that the new Mach Z has 45 hp on it might make a little difference though huh?

Seriously, if 4 strokes are going to be a big part of our sledding future (and apparently Yamaha is thinking they will) then the fact that they have already got the weight down to within 5 or 10 pounds of what my ZL800 esr was is not too bad in just 3 years.

THe only issue with the A-arms is that they are not crash resistent. A guy in Stephenville had his machine written off after a minor 20mph impact with an immovable object. This is the kind of thing that has me worried about the Yamaha's, the Rev's and the new fusion.

The problem was actually not so much with the A-arms as it was with the bulkhead. The A-arms didn't give, and the bottom one was ripped out of the bulk head. The insurance agent considered the price of the bulk head, and the hours required to change it, and wrote the guy a cheque.

Newfie, you're right this can happen with no trailing arms. With trailing arms the damage would have occured at the point where the other end of the arm connects and would most likely be repairable. It's hard to speculate though. Bottom line is this, hit something hard (even at 20 mph) and you have problems, PERIOD. Try it with your car if you don't believe me. Go ahead and run it into a concrete wall at 20 mph and see how it makes out.

However, with all that said, what exactly in this thread lead you to post these messages and pictures? Nobody was talking about A-Arm suspensions here...

Exactly QCRider,

Why try and point out an alleged 'flaw', when in fact it is one of things that makes this sled better than it's trailing-armed predecessor??? There must be a reason why everyone is going to a-arms, obviously they perform much better than the trailing arms of old. See, the Cat guys had it right all along....

A-arms work better. Just because one person happened to write-off a machine that happened to have an a-arm suspension is irrelevant. Don't blame the a-arms, blame the rider. They also used to build automobiles out of heavy steel, now they use lighter materials. Yes, they break more easily, but that actually (in most cases) provides better protection, decreases costs, and increases performance.

Getting back to the point of this thread... The published weight of the new Vector is pretty appealing someone looking for high-technology and a reasonably nimble package. True, that 519lb figure may not be accurate, but show me a manufacturer's claimed weight that is....

How has the front A-arm suspension held up? I've read places where some people were having problems with Ski-Doo A-arms and bulkheads bending? How have the Yami's held up?

Maybe you guys should actually read the threads instead of just posting your answers. :p :p

Don't blame the a-arms, blame the rider.
That's a very silly response. It was not the riders fault at all, it was something that could have happened to anybody, as all he did was hit a rock that was hidden in snow.

Maybe we should take the comparison with cars alittle further.
Automobiles are designed to survive low speed impacts with little or repairable damage. THis was done at the behest of the insurance companies, who didn't want to be writing off cars for every parking lot fenderbender that happened.

I agree with you that A-arms probably offer more consistent handeling than trailing arms can, but after suffering several low-speed impacts with immovable objects myself this winter, I can attest to the crash worthyness of the Trailing arm design. THe first time I was rather PO'd, and I'm still nervous about bending IFS bars, but it only cost me $150 for the IFS bar, $48 for a shock rod, $15 for shock oil, and $25 to get the shock rebuilt.

The next two time I managed to hook stumps with the radius rods with enough force to throw me off the machine, but a long pry bar was all I needed to fix the damage.

So Yellowbelly, the problem with the new generation of A-arms seems to be that the increased length which helps so much with the handleing has increased the leverage on the bulkhead, and will add up to big time repair bills if and when you have an accident. This is a change from the older Actic Cats which were extremly crash worthy, and from the various trailing arm designs, which were very cheap to repair.

Thanks for the replies guys! I guess what you say makes sense Newfie. Any of the A-arm sleds would probably have issues if in an accident.
519 pounds sounds pretty good to me! compare that to the Arctic Cat T660 ST turbo! If the Vector is 519, it's 50 pounds lighter and has 10 more horses than the Cat! Wow! Not a hard choice if you ask me! :tongue:
SWRules

Yellow: Something else to consider-the turbo-one expensive part to replace you don't have to worry about.

One other serious drawback that the T660 has, that is overlooked by most it seems . Is that the T660 CANNOT be tipped over sideways for suspension adjustment, powder carving or accidental tipovers. If this happens the oil will pour out the air filter clogging it horribly, causing a nightmare of a mess trailside.

Glad my RX-1 doesn't do that!

I'm glad I read these posts. I've been thinking of leaving Skidoo because I prefer a zx chassis Doo for my type of riding and they have nothing to offer me this year except an overweight V twin. If that weight on the Vector is close it will be about the same as the 96 formula ss I had with better handling. I'm also thinking 4 stroke because of the long term durability of the engine. My 2 strokes start to scare me when I start seeing 5K on the odometer

Originally posted by permafrost@Mar 23 2004, 11:51 AM
One other serious drawback that the T660 has, that is overlooked by most it seems . Is that the T660 CANNOT be tipped over sideways for suspension adjustment, powder carving or accidental tipovers. If this happens the oil will pour out the air filter clogging it horribly, causing a nightmare of a mess trailside.
The sled can be tipped-- all the way to a 70% angle which is very close to sideways. Depending on the amount of time it spends flipped passed the 70% degree point will determine the extent of the oil penetration past the piston rings.

Yes passed the same piston rings that keep the oil in the lower half of the motor in the first place. The engine would have to be in the absolute sideways or sideways and unsided-down position for a long itme to get significant oil into the cylinders, and then to get it to travel uphill, 6" or so into the intake then to travel down, thru the turbo and into the airbox. At that point it would probably mean that all the oil went thru the engine/piston ring interface.

Running the engine for short periods of times in the sideways positions has not resulted in any noticeable oil usage or loss.

I beleive that running an engine in an extreme angle will result in a plug fouling from the oil much sooner then any oil contamination into the intake tract.

I beleive the real concern would lie in working on a sled laying totally on its side for a long period of time in the non-running condition. I can tell you one thing- laying the sled down to within 30 degrees of totally sideways leaves me with plenty of area to work in. Also you have the option of lifting the back end up for suspension work.

I really do not see the 70 degree sideways rule to be a problem at all. Just a piece of information to keep in mind when working on the sled--which is alot less often then a two stroke.


Tony

Tony,

Interesting reading-what if you tip the sled over or roll it on the trail? Did you get this info from an owner or service manual? Not saying it's incorrect.

Agreed on the less time spent working on/fixing a 4 stroke.

Originally posted by spikegary@Mar 25 2004, 11:21 AM
Tony,

Interesting reading-what if you tip the sled over or roll it on the trail? Did you get this info from an owner or service manual? Not saying it's incorrect.

Agreed on the less time spent working on/fixing a 4 stroke.
There is a process to check how much oil entered the engine. I beleive it involves checking the intake/airfilter for oil first. If no oil start the engine like normal.

If there is oil then take the spark plug out and put a rag over the hole. Turn on the emergency stop and turn the engine over to see if oil is there. Is so continue turning over till no more oil comes out. Continue to the other sparkplugs. Start as normal.

The above service procedure is in the owners manual.

I beleive an engine will have had to be upside down for quite some time to get oil into the upper engine, but the above procedure is there just in case.


Tony

Been shopping around for RS Vector, quoted several prices for Spring Buy. This is what I have US $ without tax:

RAS Vector $6579 + $245 (freight/setup) = $6824
RS Vector ER $6837 + $245 (freight/setup) = $7082

Quoted by Nielsens in Lake Villa, Il

Several other dealers matched prices, going with my dealer in Twin Lakes, Wi. Does not include $800 in accessories, applying that discount to sled at dealers cost. Going to buy ER Saturday. Can't wait for a new season. Sitting on it in the garage all summer long will have to do for now. See ya on the trail! Good luck shopping around. :D

Congrats on your purchase! I look forward to hearing from you this comoing winter for a true snow test result!

Originally posted by spikegary@Mar 26 2004, 09:17 PM
Congrats on your purchase! I look forward to hearing from you this comoing winter for a true snow test result!
Ditto..

Man, you guys in the states get all the bargains.