Garmin is finally releasing topo maps for Canada. Check out:

http://www.garmin.com/cartography/mapSource/topoCanada.jsp#

Looks pretty detailed too... they've got an online browser to check it out. At first glance I didn't notice any snowmobile trails, but at least it gives us something decent to start with.

Now all I need now is a GPS :D

- Jeff

I find myself using the R&R maps more than TOPO for Michigan. Since the snowmobile trails aren't on the TOPO maps I find the detail of towns and road names to be more helpful since many of the UP's trails follow seasonal roads. But the TOPO does have more detail in the way of 2-tracks, but that's never been a necessity. Maybe the Canada version will have more detail (trails).

Originally posted by Beerman@Apr 13 2004, 08:31 AM
I find myself using the R&R maps more than TOPO for Michigan.* Since the snowmobile trails aren't on the TOPO maps I find the detail of towns and road names to be more helpful since many of the UP's trails follow seasonal roads.* But the TOPO does have more detail in the way of 2-tracks, but that's never been a necessity. Maybe the Canada version will have more detail (trails).
Actually, they don't appear to have the trails on the map. Looks as though they do have small towns et. al. The town I live just out of maybe has 50 people living there... and it's on the map.

I'd use it camping/canoeing too. Very handy to have topo.

I think... if I do end up getting a GPS and a topo map for it - I'll start making routes... of course they will be mostly of the area I live in - but it's a start.

- Jeff

Snowmobile trails can change from season to season (even within the same season) and I never expect them to be provided. Some day when I get ambitious and have a lot of spare time, I want to get Ontario trail maps scanned and import them into my Garmin, but that's no trivial task.

I think the new topo map will be most useful to hikers, campers, and fisherpeople.

If you undertook that I'm sure you could sell them. I have to believe it's only a few years away when the clubs will start providing the trails as files. The Marquette club in the UP actually has GPS coords on all the trail junctions and gas, etc. Very, very nice IMHO as you can premark all that as WPs. I'm sure other clubs will follow suit.

Originally posted by Beerman@Apr 13 2004, 03:43 PM
The Marquette club in the UP actually has GPS coords on all the trail junctions and gas, etc. Very, very nice IMHO as you can premark all that as WPs. I'm sure other clubs will follow suit.
If you undertook that I'm sure you could sell them.

In Canada, we have to pay licensing rights for the use of topo maps, so I couldn't sell them without licensing them first (and they're not cheap, AFAIK). From what I understand, in the US, the maps generated by the gov't are public domain in most (if not all) states.

I would be quite willing to undertake this if I knew I could make money. The other legality issue is that of using a third-party application to generate Garmin compatible maps.

I have to believe it's only a few years away when the clubs will start providing the trails as files.

I would like to think that, but in 2500 miles of trail riding this season, I am pretty sure I saw only 1 or 2 people with GPSes mounted on their sleds. I couldn't imagine clubs who are already short on resources to provide this service for a select few.

With that said, it'd be nothing to provide GPSes to groomer drivers and just keep their tracks for their runs. That would be a WORLD of useful information, IMHO. Both for those riding the trails and those maintaining/mapping them. I would be surprised to hear that clubs weren't doing this already, but miracles never cease :)

Yeah, I'm sure there might be some legal issues, but I would think you could sell Track files, that's all you really need anyway. If a club were to provide a complete track file of their trail system I'd have no problem spending $10-$20. But some real market research would be in order, I too haven't seen too many sleds with GPSs, but the Marquette club obviously realized the benefit of including GPS coords. Now that I think of it, one of the Ontario maps I have has GPS coords for most of the hotels and gas stations that advertise on it.

Yeah, I'm sure there might be some legal issues, but I would think you could sell Track files, that's all you really need anyway.

I would much rather have an actual GPS map containing the same information that a (paper) trail map would have. I don't want to waste track storage space.

Now that I think of it, one of the Ontario maps I have has GPS coords for most of the hotels and gas stations that advertise on it.

Would you happen to remember which region this is?

I often wondered why the clubs simply didn't do that for their sponsors. Hell, I'd volunteer to do that for any place I ride in if I know they'd print/use the information.

I'll see if I can dig it up when I get home, pretty sure it was the region that Wawa is in.

Originally posted by Beerman@Apr 14 2004, 11:20 AM
I'll see if I can dig it up when I get home, pretty sure it was the region that Wawa is in.
Ahh, that would make sense since it's so desolate in that part of Ontario. It's probably also the only region map that I don't have :)

Even in more densely populated areas, it would certainly be good to know where the gas stations, restaurants, and other points of interest are.

I am very enthusiastic about the GPS and wish there was more useful waypoints and tracks for the trail system available to those that have them.

Originally posted by OntRider@Apr 13 2004, 03:54 PM


In Canada, we have to pay licensing rights for the use of topo maps, so I couldn't sell them without licensing them first (and they're not cheap, AFAIK).* From what I understand, in the US, the maps generated by the gov't are public domain in most (if not all) states.

I would be quite willing to undertake this if I knew I could make money.* The other legality issue is that of using a third-party application to generate Garmin compatible maps.



I would like to think that, but in 2500 miles of trail riding this season, I am pretty sure I saw only 1 or 2 people with GPSes mounted on their sleds.* I couldn't imagine clubs who are already short on resources to provide this service for a select few.

With that said, it'd be nothing to provide GPSes to groomer drivers and just keep their tracks for their runs.* That would be a WORLD of useful information, IMHO.* Both for those riding the trails and those maintaining/mapping them.* I would be surprised to hear that clubs weren't doing this already, but miracles never cease :)
Actually, (from what I understand), when you create 'trails' on the GPS units, you are actually generating just the trail. The trail you make gets super-imposed onto the existing (or uploaded) maps in your GPS unit. In effect you wouldn't be releasing the actually map, but all the waypoint/breadcrumb data you generate when tracing out a trail. Still unsure if you could sell that information though!

I was thinking about doing something fancy with scanned maps. If the data (the output file) generated from trail data is easy to create (by hand), I was thinking about taking scans of OFSC maps and have the computer trace the routes for me. Would take a bit of programming, but I think it would be possible. Would just have to go back and define trail designations etc...

Of course, I don't have a GPS (yet)... so that little project is on the back burner for the time being.

- Jeff

Actually, (from what I understand), when you create 'trails' on the GPS units, you are actually generating just the trail.* The trail you make gets super-imposed onto the existing (or uploaded) maps in your GPS unit.* In effect you wouldn't be releasing the actually map, but all the waypoint/breadcrumb data you generate when tracing out a trail.* Still unsure if you could sell that information though!


We are discussing creation and sale of maps, not GPS tracks. I can legally (and without any limitations) sell GPS tracks, but nobody would buy them. IMHO, they have limited function (not to mention consuming valuable track memory). I want the "background" map to be a snowmobile trail map (analgous to a paper map), not a generic topo map like what comes with the GPS.

I was thinking about doing something fancy with scanned maps.* If the data (the output file) generated from trail data is easy to create (by hand), I was thinking about taking scans of OFSC maps and have the computer trace the routes for me.* Would take a bit of programming, but I think it would be possible.* Would just have to go back and define trail designations etc...


Why not just generate a GPS map (Garmin and some third-party tools are probably your best bet here) and use that instead of creating tracks?

Tracks are useful when you don't have anything else, however given the option, I'd take a proper map instead of a track.

Awesome, ...getting a GPS unit for my bithday in June and still was undecided since none of the manufacturers carried any good Canadian topo maps. Seems like I might be getting a Garmin, ....I was originally looking at the Lowrance iFinder, but their maps are way too expensive!!

I was looking at the TOPO Canada map and it does have some sled trails marked on it. They're just hard to find.

It will be a lot more useful to see all the landmarks around you (roads, lakes) so you'll have a better idea where you are at. All streets are marked also, and most of the time you come into town for gas the trails lead right to a road, so it gives you something to look for.

I am getting one for sure! (Topo)