I was in a local Yamaha dealership today, no I'm not buying a Yamaha. Anyway, the salesman made a comment to us about those track kits for ATVs that I found very disturbing, if it is true. I commented to a guy that was with me that you would never see them on OFSC trails. The salesman said, oh yes you will starting this year. I said *&%$sh&t. He said, no, that was the only way that the OFSC could make it's final insurance payment last year was to agree to permit ATVs for this coming season.
Does anyone know if that is the case?
If it is, I will refuse to buy a trail permit and will make it quite clear to the OFSC why.
This will be an interesting thread!

Doesn't sound to good. Then again if they buy trail passes it will help keep costs down and I really can't see seeing a whole whack of these out on the trails. 2 years ago I ran into a game warden here stopping sleds on a trail and he was riding a regular ATV. I stopped. He asked my my info and I said he was on the trail illegally and he could go %*$* himself. He gave me the blank deer in the headlights look and I told him about the trails and snow passes etc. Didn't help. I drove off as he was yelling at me to stop. Never did hear anything about it after.

rob, i would have done the same. this could get very interesting. The atv's are trying to take over our trial system. if that happens, i will be buying a long track and making my own trials.

The way we look at is, this is a new variation on an ATV, but it is still an ATV, not a snowmobile, hence, they will not be allowed on our trails-but we control our trails as opposed to a federal agency controlling them. I hope you guys can put the skids on that.......VE Guy-it's o.k., you can buy a Yamaha, we won't tell!

Hi Gary. It's not a Federal agency that looks after our trails. It is a federation of snowmobile clubs. People like you and I except, as with any organization, I'm sure they can be swung by pressure and money.

Sorry, I just can't and won't accept an ATV as an equal on a snowmobile trail.

This is not a good idea although I am used to it. In my neck of the woods, ATV's are allowed on the trails and the ruts they can make can be quite dangerous - drop a ski in there, overcorrect and bang! You are tree bark.

We only need those trails for a small part of the year. ATV's should back off.

Perhaps revrnd can fill us in on what is happening - he often has his finger on the pulse of the OFSC!

Tracks on an ATV does not make them equal to snowmobiles. I am not for this idea at all. The trails are there because us snowmobilers have worked together to form a trail system and maintain it. Now the ATV people want to just up and ride OUR trails? All I can say is that those people better be the first ones to join a club and give up some of their free time to help KEEP the trails.

Originally posted by F7144@Jul 9 2004, 02:11 PM
All I can say is that those people better be the first ones to join a club and give up some of their free time to help KEEP the trails.
What worries me is someone on an ATV causing damage to someones property that a club begged and pleeded to get access through and that damage will get blamed on us snowmobilers. Man we get enough bad publicity as it is w/o there help. Anyone know what the width is of one of those quads with tracks on. Do they still fall within 48in or whatever it is. Not looking forward to the first horror story of a fellow sledder out for a ride and meeting a track equiped quad hugging the wrong side of the trail.

The clubs only have permission from the landowners to allow snowmobiles on trails on private property during the winter months. If the OFSC lets ATVs on the trails during the winter. You know what is going to happen? They'll want to ride those trails year round. Guess what? The land owners aren't going to allow that.

IMO, the salesman probably has been saying that to make sales. If he tells a prospective customer that he can't go on the trails & all he can do is ride around his yard, he probably won't buy the ATV.

I'd email the OFSC office & see if they answer your question. Mention the name of the dealership & the salesman if you know it.

A friend of mine noticed a simialar thing last year in the U.P. around the Marquette area. He saw 3 off road pickups and a newer Jeep Cherokee running down the snowmobile trails, needless to say the Jeep Cherokee got stuck about two to three miles from the nearest road crossing. The guy in the passenger seat of the Cherokee sticks his hand out to maybe get my friend to help them get unstuck, but luckily all my friend did was kick the door in as he rode by. If his family hadn't been with him it would have got real interesting, but instead he noticed a DNR sled a couple miles up and reported the incident to him. Some people????? :cussing: :cussing:

a salesperson does not lie. the person at the dealership was just a liar thinking that's what you do to sell.

Not to get too far off the topic, and only to refresh some memories, there are dual use trails spread around here and there in Michigan, and I'm sure other places. Some of the marked trails are regular roads that are just not plowed. People use them to get to homes built along them, and there are hunters out there using these trails all the time.... I don't like it any better than anyone else, but it is something to be thinking about when you are cruising along getting ready to crest the top of a hill. It's not going to be a pretty scene when all you can see from one side of the trail to the other is a nice big shiny chrome front (or rear) bumper...even if you are on your own side of the trail! They have no 48" rule here.

in my state,Maine, 4 weewers aernt allowed on any trails the state pays clubs to mantain. the only reason i can really see to keep them off the trails is the damage they do with there wheels. if they had tracks on back and skis on the front wheels i wouldnt care. remember there fighting for there right to have and run there machines where they can just as we are with those damm enviro's and all our national, state parks,etc,etc. even if we dont like wheelers or whatever we ALL need to support each other for what we want. UNITED WE STAND!

One thing is for certain - we snowmobilers are going to have to learn to peacefully co-exist with ATV'ers, because their popularity is growing year after year. And ATV'ers are demanding better and better facilities to ride them, and why not? If they're willing to pay the ridiculous fees for trail permits and insurance, more power to them.

Lets stop finger pointing and learn to get along. Do I want to see ATV's on the trails in winter? Absolutely not, whether with wheels and tracks. But do I think that an ATV on the trails in inherently a danger to anyone on a snowmobile??? Not really. And do I think that an ATV is more likely to cause trail closures? No way - it's the moron on his snowmobile that just can't resist that farmer's field full of untouched powder. Or the racer-boy wannabe that thinks that 80MPH is a reasonable speed to ride the trails on a Saturday afternoon.

The OFSC needs to step up to the plate here and say that no ATV, regardless of whether it's got tracks or wheels, can ride on ANY OFSC trail in winter. Or, better yet (for ATV'ers anyways), develop some limited ATV-only trails for winter riding.

Let's face it guys - this ATV craze isn't coming to an end anytime soon. We need to work with each other rather than against one another. And no, I don't own an ATV....

If what you say does happen.....will every atv'er up there go out and purchase those track kits? I doubt it......probably most wont, there expensive.

Will these track kitted atv's do less damage to the snow then the wheeled atv's do? Probably a whole lot less. I have never seen one used on the snow yet but I would guess that due to the extra weight of the tracks and parts involved they lose HP just like sleds do, so that would make them less likely to do damage to the snow.


Do I want to see ATV's on the trails? Absoluetly not. We pay for the trails, dearly! They do not. I used to own an ATV but gave it up due to the lack of legal riding area's around here.

I doubt these tracks will gain in popularity. By the time you outfit your atv like that you should have just bought a snowmobile in the first place.

I too could never see this wannabe snowmobile ever getting any popularity.
I see it as another "gimmick" like back in the 60's when they built a car that could drive right from the road into the lake :lol: That went over like a ho in church :lol:
Dont get in a dander yet, the dealer is just trying to sell someone's dream.
Just think of the trail damage a Raider/Manta would do with 2-10" wide tracks spinning constantly w00t glad they never made it!

ATV's with tracks will be allowed on the trails, i can see it already. If they are willing to pay for a trail pass for their machines, the clubs will not say no to them, cash is cash, every one likes it, especially people who have bills to pay, such as clubs.

However, track kits for atv's are no less than 2500 dollars. Not just any person would pay that to get to ride for an extra couple months per year, only the ones with cash to throw around, so you don't have to worry about a great # of them on the trails, but don't be suprised to see a few outthere.

Bauer

Originally posted by dawg@Jul 9 2004, 05:57 PM
rob, i would have done the same. this could get very interesting. The atv's are trying to take over our trial system.
This just makes me want to :bash: my head on the wall............

I don't think that the OFSC trails will be used by both in the winter.
A recreational trail system should be sleds in the winter, ATVs in the summer.

Under no condition should they be allowed to be on the trails at the same time.
The ruts left by the ATVs would be too great a risk for the sleds and riders.

I've been on a 4x4 ATV with a track kit and it was slower than if it had the wheels on it for some reason. I don't remember it trenching the non-OFSC trail down the lake. Those things are heavy with the tracks on then (7-800lbs.) and I think on a land trail they could due some damage if it got stuck or the trail was soft.

I think that a recreational trail system could work well on the crown land, bush roads and hydro/pipe lines up in northern Ontario that the OFSC uses now. We could share the cost of trail insurance and permits and have the ATV clubs volunteer for trail maintenance in the summer. The ATV clubs could make trails around swamps / lakes thus allowing the groomers on the trails sooner and we all know what that means for us.
Fraz

In my area here we have 1000kms of ATV trails. It is crown land consisting of forest access roads and rail beds The majority of the railbeds are multi use trails for everyone.

i rode a raptor with a track kit and thought it was a joke. all that it did was shoot snow all over the place and dig ruts (in 4" deep snow). it barely goes fast enough to justify it being "fun". it's around $2500 for a 2 wheel drive quad and around $4000 for the bigger 4 wheel drive units. i wouldnt even wanna think what would happen if u took one of the trail in any amount of snow. all i know is that you'd better have a big winch and a long cable to pull you out!!! :p i think this might be one of those rich people things that blow their money on ridiculous stuff. i'm thinkin' you could pick up a very decent sled for $4000.

IMHO tho, i dont think the groomers are out enough as it is. with quads on the trails it's gunna make it A LOT worse and i dont think the grooming is going to get any better. i like riding the ditches a lot more than the trails normally but when the trails get all crapped out i love doing my give'r routine cuz no one else wants to ride the whooped out trails. :D but anyways, the trails will just get big ruts in them and that kind of riding sucks. and i've also heard the same jibberish running out of a few salesmens mouths so you're not the only one who has heard it.

Let me put your minds at ease.

That salesperson was definitely giving you a line that he hoped was going to have you whip out your wallet and buy at least 2 units.

The OFSC currently has no intention to share trails with ATV's. Whether wheeled or tracked. There are discussions around some clubs that voluntarily want to run both on their trails. That will be a decision made by those clubs. That does not allow ATV's on our trails during the winter. I have seen a lot of rut damage caused by ATV's tires. If you are againts a shared trail where you ride, let your local clubs know.

Personally, my greatest concern is around the rather substantial difference in the speeds either vehicle is usually operated at. If they share a trail at the same time, there will be collisions between sleds and ATV'S.

For anyone in District 5, I can asure you that no club is even remotely considering allowing ATV's on our sled trails. And our landowners support that decision as well.

I'm pretty sure that District 9 north of us mirrored that decision at our joint districts stakeholders meeting in the spring.

So before you run out and put that "for sale" sign on your sled, relax.
There is no truth to what that salesman was saying.

Hey Vintage, are you talking about the salesman at T.T.S. in Underwood? If so......I would not pay much attention to him. He is a sponsor of mine for snowcross, but Bill knows better than to try and sell his stuff like that, it might just be his salesman talking.

Originally posted by skidoo175@Jul 10 2004, 01:39 AM
Hey Vintage, are you talking about the salesman at T.T.S. in Underwood? If so......I would not pay much attention to him. He is a sponsor of mine for snowcross, but Bill knows better than to try and sell his stuff like that, it might just be his salesman talking.
No it wasn't TTS, it was A&W Recreation just north of Guelph. I wouldn't believe it coming from TTS either.
What would be good though if there is anyone in the Guelph area that is a club member of involved directly with the OFSC to drop around and do an intervention with these guys before they do actually convince even one person that it may be true. I am wise and seasoned enough to see through it and call BS but some porr unsuspecting hopeful may not.
I have nothing against the dealer but just think they could be helped by some correct info.

:lmao: Any takers??

I had the same question asked last fall , I contacted the OFSC office and the tracked ATV units are NOT allowed on the trails. The legal definition of a snowmobile is one that is manufactured and registed as such. Putting tracks on a ATV(or school bus for that matter ) does not make it a snowmobile and therefore is not allowed by the legal definition of a snowmobile in Ontario.

Originally posted by Vintage Elan Guy@Jul 9 2004, 12:39 PM
He said, no, that was the only way that the OFSC could make it's final insurance payment last year was to agree to permit ATVs for this coming season.
I have no idea why anyone would think that the insurance company the OFSC deals w/ would make allowing ATV usage a condition. IMO, I would think the co. would be against the idea. Less vehicles on the trails means less chance of claims.

I am with RacerX, those kits are so expensive that just seeing a fourwheeler equipped with tracks will be very, very rare.
I am with you all on not allowing fourwheelers on the trails, when do you think most of the fourwheelers will come out, on the 50+ degree days rutting in the mud....ruining it for everyone. I am sure officials have thought of that, and wouldnt stand for it. I dont think we have to much to worry about.

Ok i really don't find nothing wrong with having ATV's on the trails when they have track kits,,,there wont be ruts,,,four-wheelers can easily do the speed limit....just my 2 cents

Here's a letter to the editor in today's Peterborough Examiner:

Stop trespassing

Regarding ATV article in the Examiner on Monday July 5.

I am writing to you in the hopes that you would clarify one paragraph pertaining to these unfortunate and needless deaths in our area over the past weekend.

You say that according to police, that ATVs are only permitted on Crown Land and private property. I think that what the authorities are trying to impress on the ATV operators are that they are only permitted on Crown Land and their own private land.

As president of the Paudash Trailblazers Snowmobile Club I can not impress enough that without express written consent from private landowners that ATVs are not allowed on private property which is not their own, and if they do so they are trespassing and in turn are jeopardizing our permission to use the land during the snowmobiling season.

If land owner permission is revoked then there would not be any trails to ride in the winter.

This would not only hurt this winter sport, but would also be a hardship to the businesses who count on the winter tourism dollars to keep them afloat. Our future depends on it for the ATVs to cease from trespassing.

Jim Corbett
President, Paudash Trailblazers Snowmobile Club
Apsley

The accidents he is referring to occurred last weekend. A ATV rider was killed northeast of Apsley and another rider was killed north of Fenelon Falls on the railbed. Police said neither rider was wearing a helmet.

Kriss thats the first I have heard about the accident north of Fenelon.Do you have anymore info on it?

Revrnd the one guy that got killed was on a three wheeler. here are the facts , it was at night, he was drunk, alone and had no helmet. One of my childrens friends from school no longer has a father due to this easily avoidable accident.

Originally posted by sawman@Jul 10 2004, 09:10 PM
Kriss thats the first I have heard about the accident north of Fenelon.Do you have anymore info on it?
Frank, police found his body and ATV 10 metres over the edge of the railbed about a klick south of the 3rd Line of Somerville early Saturday morning.

He was a 68 year old male staying at I believe Log Chateau trailer rark.

:lol: i know the exact guy that told u about the quads being allowed in the trails. i bet he's about mid 20's, kinda chubby, dark hair, and his name is Don. he's an extremely big dick when it comes to that kind of stuff. u cant tell him any differently cuz he seems to think he knows everything. i can say this cuz i know him. i go riding with him in the winter all the time cuz he takes out demo sleds from A&W every weekend. he's an ok guy outside of work but at work he's a jacka$$!! :lmao:

I recently sent an e mail to the OFSC asking them about the proposed use of any atvs on their trails.I got a reply the other day from a lady by the name of Paula Richards who is the OFSC Marketing Assistant. Here is what she said- Hi Peter- Thank you for your e mail.The OFSC has NO plans to approve the use of ANY atv use ( with or without tracks) on our trails.We want to mantain our relationship with landowners from all areas, who also DO NOT WANT atvs on their properties. The OFSC supports the principals of ONTrails- which is a user pay system being developed ffor atvs.We will continue to work at maintaining quality trails for use of organized snowmobiling. Regards, Paula Richards- OFSC Marketing Assissant. I Hope this will quench some of the rumours they are hearing.

The other thing I want to find out about in Ontario is, does an ATV have insurance coverage when they are riding ON a road? If no, what happens if I'm driving along in my truck & an ATV rider hits my vehicle?

I'm going to ask @ my agent this week & see what they say. I'll post the info when I get it.

Originally posted by revrnd@Jul 18 2004, 11:04 AM
The other thing I want to find out about in Ontario is, does an ATV have insurance coverage when they are riding ON a road? If no, what happens if I'm driving along in my truck & an ATV rider hits my vehicle?

I'm going to ask @ my agent this week & see what they say. I'll post the info when I get it.
Hi Revrnd

To answer that, if the ATV, ATC, Argo, Snowmobile, Motorcycle, ETC. is operated off of the owners personal property, then they require liability insurance coverage. I'm pretty sure the minimum is $200,000.

That's what the police in District 5 have been nailing ATV riders with when they catch them riding off their own property, especially on snowmobile trails or roads including shoulders, as the fine is $5,000. Pretty hefty fine eh?

BTW - A shoulder on a road allowance is considered from fence line to fence line on the other side of the road. Except of course the road inbetween.

So hopefully, if some moron hits you, they have liability coverage for their own sake only. Your insurance coverage under the "uninsured driver coverage" covers your injury and damage. Then your insurance company will sue the person that hit you. So the liability coverage is not only mandatory by law, but also for their own benefit.

I hope that answers your question.

Jeff

Tennis shoe's place in underwood ????

sounds like there's a few of us from around the local area on this forum