I wanted to believe it was internet hype. Even though I felt the power may have been down some. I had 1000 miles on the original belt and it was spring time so that must be it.
I did do a compression test, 125 both sides. Talked to my dealer a couple of times. Even had the sled there once. They said there is no ring problem, we have not had one ring failure. It was starting fine and going into reverse fine. So it has to be hype. But bothered me enough, and I'm a mechanic with all the tools. So what the heck, do a leak down test last weekend. Failed big time. Maybe it's this tool. Tried several. Did learn there is way too much varience between guages. Even between two Snap-On guages. Ended up best of 20% worst of 38%. Two things still bothered me though. First, I deal with engines that have at least 3 rings per piston. This one ring piston has to leak more. But how much is exceptable? Second if I turned the engine against normal rotation I could get 5%. Made no sense to me, and still don't. So still not conviced I go see my dealer again. We will call Doo and see what they say. Well couple days go by with out a response, and the idea my tools shouldn't lie to me eating at me. I decide to pull it apart this morning. The whole time thinking how pissed I'm going to be for taking my new engine apart for no reason. Up until I had the rings in my hand. First ring, not real bad, but bad enough I could see the writing on the wall. This ring was failing, the moly was not touching the cylinder wall any longer, just the outside rails. Second ring, worse, pits of moly missing.
Brought it to my dealer, well you should have told us, we would have had you bring your sled to us. We will fix it for you. Your the first to have a ring problem.
The real problem I have is the price for one ring or one cast piston. That is insane. I can buy top forged 4.6 bore pistons for my 565 drag engine for less then 100 bucks each. And a set of top tool steel rings, three rings per eight pistons for a little over 200. You can buy cast pistons for around 8 bucks a piece for a Chevy 350. I can put 8 new pistons and rings in a v-8 Chevy for less then two in a sled.
Heck, for a big ol Cat or Cummins engine, I can get a new cylinder, piston, rings, wrist pin for around 100 bucks a hole.
Anyways, I don't know if all 800s have a problem. Just know mine does. It has 1200 miles or so on it when I took it apart. It had less then 1000 when I felt it was down on power. It is all stock. I don't ride all that hard, never pinned it for very long. Never even found out just how fast it will go. I do run Semi-syn Yammie lube.

If you dont want to put the oem stuff back in, get ahold of Spanky's there in Michigan. They sell SPI replacements with rings for around 130.00 bucks for both. I am ordering a set to put on the shelf for when mine fails again. The ones that I talk to, have not had the problems with the SPI's as with the doo piston/ ring set-up.

Good luck,
Brian

Originally posted by Rolngthun@Oct 23 2004, 02:36 PM
I do run Semi-syn Yammie lube.
356014


w00t

Originally posted by rampage@Oct 23 2004, 03:30 PM
w00t
356017


So? Think you are on to something there?

Pretty sad story. Wonder how the less mechanically inclined guys tolerate these kinds of problems, probably end up paying thru the nose, so to speak.

i know this is gonna sound henious but,... 35% leakage on a two stroker isnt a 5 hp loss, i too am a auto tek , ha, a senior one, and that high leakage number in a motorsports car is a sign of ill fortune but... theres real leaky stuff out there winnin every week at the grass drags...even higher.

Originally posted by ballsout1@Oct 23 2004, 04:42 PM
i know this is gonna sound henious but,... 35% leakage on a two stroker isnt a 5 hp* loss, i too am a auto tek , ha, a senior one, and that high leakage* number in a motorsports* car is a sign of ill fortune but... theres real leaky stuff out there winnin every week at* the grass drags...even higher.
356039

have to say I agree.

Originally posted by ballsout1@Oct 23 2004, 04:42 PM
i know this is gonna sound henious but,... 35% leakage on a two stroker isnt a 5 hp* loss, i too am a auto tek , ha, a senior one, and that high leakage* number in a motorsports* car is a sign of ill fortune but... theres real leaky stuff out there winnin every week at* the grass drags...even higher.
356039



This is true. If you have the type of guage that is marked, it says good to 40%, and moderate to 75% at which point it shows red.

I do not know how much power I was down. So little I tended to blame it on a worn belt or warmer temps of spring. I know I raised my clicker to 4 to try to get the rpms back up to where they belong.

I'm not trying to sell the ring problem. I don't care if someone blames it on the oil I run. Just hoping the ones who care think about it before warrenty runs out.
Maybe it is just 1 sled in a million with the problem. I don't know. And I don't know a 100% accurate test for you guys.
I have the tools and abilities to easily get past this. It is the guys like Cory said who don't I feel for. Especially if it don't happen until after warrenty expires.

I`m just throwin this out... but maybe a unrelated problem like a sagged primary or secondary spring, or god knows what else. i see your concern of the 125 number, but there even and though it strikes me as a little low it doesnt seem that bad on alot of sleds if you measure 5 new ones ya can get a 10 lb spread...sooo good luck. that warrenty thing to, dont take this the wrong way, but its not like you got a dead hole, the sled may not be making 100% of the of when it was new.... but its not broke, just used. theres a point,that i dont know where it is, that a dealer has to make the call on what to cover or he`ll be making the 100 sleds he sold last year new again this year. at any rate you obviously have a strong technical background and if its gotta be fixed from your point of view tear it down, inspect the pistons, rings, and walls, if they look ok reassemble and look elsewhere, if not run it buy your dealer and say see i told ya so, all he can say is he`s still not gonna cover whatever is there or maybe that you`ve takin the initive to go that far he`ll give ya a new set of rings or somthin, good luck, at least its not riding season yet.

The oil is fine. Dont let anyone tell you its the oil.

99% of the oils today, whether regular,semi-synth,or synthetic, will keep your engine in tip top shape. It's making sure the oil is getting to its desired location at the right quantity that matters.

Man, that sucks to hear about your trouble. I don't know what the true magnitude of this ring problem is, and I suspect that Skidoo doesn't have a clue either. The 'sad' thing is that there are probably a lot of people out there with these engines assuming that their perceived loss of power is because of a worn belt or other such cause...

I don't believe in making a 'mountain out of a molehill' so to speak, and I have certainly have had my share of very good luck with Skidoo's - but maybe it's time that this problem isn't just a rumour floating around on the Internet... maybe it's time that Skidoo admits that this problem is much more frequent than 'normal wear' would allow. There must be some reason why it keeps re-surfacing.

Just my 2 cents.

bottom line it is a problem!for the price of these machines they should go more than a 1000 miles before engine problems of any kind!this is totally unacceptable in my opinion no matter the brand of sled ,the oil you use or how you ride.I just picked up my first new doo ever,its always been polaris for me.the first question I asked the doo dealer was "any motor issues"he said "just with a few 03's"I laughed and said I have read that it is a bigger issue than that.and sure enough he agreed once I called him out on it.I picked up a new 04 600 h.o and they told me the 05 600h.o has different rings and after this winter to bring the 04 back and they will install the 05 pistons and rings for me.I just hope it lasts all winter!

Originally posted by mtrsprt@Oct 24 2004, 10:08 AM
The oil is fine.* Dont let anyone tell you its the oil.

99% of the oils today, whether regular,semi-synth,or synthetic, will keep your engine in tip top shape.* It's making sure the oil is getting to its desired location at the right quantity that matters.
356189


I have heard that, especially in cold temps, different oils can have different viscoscities (sp?) and go through the oil pump at different rates. (If it's thick like molasses, and you're oil pumps not made for that kind of oil, you might not get enough...) It's probably not the cause, though, I do know a lot of people who run yamalube in everything... I used to run ski-doo synthetic and switched back to ski-doo regular last season...

Do you guys that have had problems with the rings warm your sleds up? For how long? Do you have a water temp guage?

Originally posted by rampage@Oct 24 2004, 01:59 PM
I have heard that, especially in cold temps, different oils can have different viscoscities (sp?) and go through the oil pump at different rates.* (If it's thick like molasses, and you're oil pumps not made for that kind of oil, you might not get enough...)* It's probably not the cause, though, I do know a lot of people who run yamalube in everything...* I used to run ski-doo synthetic and switched back to ski-doo regular last season...

Do you guys that have had problems with the rings warm your sleds up?* For how long? Do you have a water temp guage?
356248



I warm my sled up very well. I don't have a gauge. It also lives in a heated shop.

oil is not a factor with rings, any make whatever, its more the same than different, obviously you have to make sure your injectin enough for the type of oil your using and ya can get away with less with a million dollar oil , usually, but if you have a oil problem you`l see it with bearing problems before rings, also high exhaust temps and detonation are probably more of a ring killer than oil could ever be, but i`m straying off the subject here.

It's simple. The reason the rings go bad, is the coating and material. Years ago, the rings were harder than the cylinder. This made for a very good seal once wet with fuel and oil. Now with the use of different chrome platings on the cylinder, they are very hard. In order to get things to seal, they use a softer ring with a moly coating. This is great for a wear point of view, as the cylinder never wears. But ring life is greatly ruduced. IMO the best way to go is with a 2 ring piston (wiseco or whoever). I ran wisecos in my 800, and it took near 1000 miles to get the rings to seat. Instead of the top end power going away in that amount of time, mine got better and better.

Oh yea, the Yamaha S3 is a very good oil, dont let anyone talk ya out of it. Used to use it myself.

Nice job getting it all worked out. Sorry your dealer is still trying to cover up the problem, but at least you're squared away now. Ya the cost of sled parts is quite outrageous, but then we knew that a loooong time ago.

How about this on the reverse rotation/better leakdown test results. When you rotate the engine in reverse the piston rocks the opposite direction on the compression stroke and different parts of the rings that are not normally in contact with the cylinder wall are now doing the work of sealing.

She oughta rock in RER mode,eh?

bro in law has a doo and we went to dealer last spring and asked about the rings, the dealer tell us to go talk to mechanic, he showed us a letter they got from doo that said to tell the owners to use doo oil and warm them up good, the mechanic laughed at the letter and told us that there is a ring problem and that doo best fess up to it cause the costomers are really getting upset and a lot where thinking of changing brands.

idooski... i missed somthin, what got worked out?, i read the last 10 post`s 3 times....i think i might have to call my shrink!! hey if you say it is i guess its all good , but i`m curious.

Originally posted by Rolngthun@Oct 23 2004, 02:36 PM
I wanted to believe it was internet hype.

Isn't it ? Man oh man BRP would never lie to us. Would they ?

Found out today my dealer got a new head mechanic. One I happen to have known for along while.
He called Doo today. Funny thing is Doo told him what to look for, described my rings to him to a T. The mechanic, says they wouldn't really come out and say there is a problem, but he got the idea. Anyways, he said that Doo said all 05s and all replacement rings for this non problem fix are the chrome race rings. By all 05s I mean 600HO and 800HO. Now I'm saying this is gospel. Just I have known this guy a long time and this is what Doo supposedly said. They also told him to split my case and replace the PTO bearing with an updated bearing.
Last Sat when I went up there the mechanic was not there. I talked to the owner. He said he will put in any ring I want, OEM or aftermarket. After I told him I didn't want those junk Ski Doo rings put back into my sled. He told me he wants my buisness, and don't want guys to have to work on their own sleds when they are still under warrenty.
Doo and the mechanic are sure the chrome will hold up, so I agreed to try them.
So now I feel alot better about life, for now. I got to box my sled up and take it up there, and learn to be happy.

Originally posted by ballsout1@Oct 25 2004, 08:02 PM
idooski... i missed somthin, what got worked out?, i read the last 10 post`s 3 times....i think i* might have to call my shrink!! hey if you say it is i guess its all good , but i`m curious.
356638


Maybe I missed something. The way I read it the first time was that first the Doo dealer says there is no problem. Then he takes it apart and finds there is one. Next Doo says that they would have fixed it if he took it in. I guess I assumed that he took it in and got it done. But what I was really saying was that the engine was down on compression because the rings were flaking the moly. Now he has new rings and it's back to Doo normal. If he had to pay for the rings himself and the sled was under warranty I guess it could have worked out better. The long and the short of it was that he had bad rings, now he doesn't.

Or....I knew that in the end he was going to say this: So now I feel alot better about life, for now. I got to box my sled up and take it up there, and learn to be happy. :D

Sorry about the confusion and making you read so much. :(

Originally posted by Rolngthun@Oct 25 2004, 07:47 PM
Anyways, he said that Doo said all 05s and all replacement rings for this non problem fix are the chrome race rings.
He's close. Most 05's got the new rings. It was a running change on the line so some will have them and some will not. My 04 is now at the dealership for rings. 50% leakdown on the pto side and 57% on the mag side.

I just replaced my rings. on a 2001 800 summit.
I honestly didn't think that I had a power loss even tho the rings were bad.
at the end of last year I raced a few newer stock sleds and was in front
buy at least 1 length at the finnish line.

I think it defiantly is a problem but good clutching will mask the problem.

I also recommend having swain tec ceramic coat top of pistons.

Originally posted by SW Tech Editor@Oct 24 2004, 04:38 PM
It's simple. The reason the rings go bad, is the coating and material. Years ago, the rings were harder than the cylinder. This made for a very good seal once wet with fuel and oil. Now with the use of different chrome platings on the cylinder, they are very hard. In order to get things to seal, they use a softer ring with a moly coating. This is great for a wear point of view, as the cylinder never wears. But ring life is greatly ruduced. IMO the best way to go is with a 2 ring piston (wiseco or whoever)
You're the tech editor so I'm not about to challenge you.........but.... my understanding from all I have spoken to and or read ( Bill C and GLH racing to name a few ) the big problem here is the fact that the exhaust ports are so big the ring, as it travels over the port, flexes more than normal. The molly coated ring Doo uses is not capable of withstanding this flexing for very long and hence the flaking. Unless I read it wrong this is what I understood was happening. As well the exhaust port has little or no chamfer to help ease the ring past and this aggravates the situation.

Here we go. Found what GLH wrote:
First of all, My hats off to Bill Cudney to Supplying me with enough pistons to support a small army.

Second, Hats off to Bill Cudney to supplying my with a product that I was researching and he beat me to it. I recieved all of my pistons NEXT DAY WHEN NEEDED. Amen Brother!!!

Now on to the rest fo the story...

As many know my 2 stroke knowledge is fairly descent (20 years) and an engineering degree in designing engines. HOWEVER THIS DOES NOT MEAN I KNOW IT ALL.

I have been studying this issue for the last 5 years, I have owned 4 800's and 1 600 HO. I have now rebuilt over 20 of these engines and had the opportunity to measure and inspect most everything about them.

The real problem with the 600 is 3 fold. The first and most important problem is the port design, not so much the port size although that exagerates it.

I have taken all the 600 cylinders and run a set of new pistons/rings in and out of the cylinder to measure the "ring Bulge". On average it is about .050" 5mm from the top of the port. This causes a ton of stress on the ring. Complicating this is the lack of ANY descent chamfer on the port. As the ring bulges in and out of the port is pushes the ring in different places back against the bore. Sometimes against the intake side, sometimes against the side. It just depends on the setup.

The second problem is the port chamfer or lack there of. With this much bulge you must ease the ring back into it's groove. Without a chamfer the ring gets slammed back into the bore when it clears the top of the port. This is extreemly tough on tings of any type

The third problem is the ring type. Research tell us that Moly coated rings are the absolute best for sealing at high temps/pressures and piston velocity's. They are quick to break in and are very low in drag. HOWEVER.... The will not tolerate disruption in the bore. Most All winston cup cars run them, Most All GP road race bikes run them and pretty much all the 4 stroke rice rockets run them. The difference is the rest of the engine design.

I have a set of 800 cylinders ported large enough to drive a truck through and still on the original rings after repeated dyno runs, the reason is the engine builder put HUGE CHAMFERS on the porty, thus easing the ring back into the bore.

The 600 HO is the worst!!! The chamfers are less than .020" on average and with a port width/bore ratio of near %70 disaster is eminent!!!!!

As for Bill Cudney's pistons/rings go they are a supperior material for this application. I will use ONLY his pistons/rings from this point on. They will take alot more abuse than the stocker will but Ski-doo needs to fix the root cause!!!

The reason the 500SS last so long is in the design of the ports. Nice big chamfers, smaller port width to bore ratio. The 500 SLS had the same exact rings as the 600 HO but there were 2 of them. The 500 SLS had pretty aggressive porting as well but had more support than the 600 HO does.

All the other issues on the sceptisicm of this engine are Nill. The reasons for disaster are simply a (ring/port design) issue.

Sorry so long and Thank again Bill for doing your part to keep me happy with pistons!!!!

I still need spell check

GLH