I was reading a discussion in another forum that made me think of this. Which Mfgr has intoduced the most technology that changed sledding. I'll name the ones I can think of.

AC = First slide rail rear susp. 69? Panther
First production IFS frnt susp. 79 Trail Cat
First A-arm frnt susp 84 El Tigre/Cougar
First Fox shocked susp 90 EXT Special
Really the only production EFI starting with 92 wilcats ( I know, I know..the ReeeXLs, but in lue of a won law suit)
First production roller secondary the 96 or 97 440 ZR
First and so far only 1000cc production 2 stroke


SD = Rotary Valve
First Exhaust Valve
First trail adjustable Primary (TRA)
RER ( electronic reverse)
Air adjustable rear susp
First plastic composite skis

Yam = First Oil injection
First resin injection molded hoods
First high perf 4 stroke
First NICASIL
First Reed valves

Pol = First hydraulic brake
First extra LT rear susp
First coupled rear susp in a production sled
First BNG ( he he)

1924 Eliason= First production snowmobile
First four stroke
First 4 cylinder ( 1930 models)
First Liquid cooled

One thing I found while researching was almost ALL of the motor technology came from bikes and outboard motors. *OMC and Merc both had rotary and reed valves in the 30's. Jap bikes of the 60's& 70's had rotory valves, reed valves and exhaust valves, oil injection, and NICASIL cylinders. So who brought engine tech to sleds is almost irrelevant..they all copied it. Interesting enough...the trend continues to this day with Yammy's 4 stroker from a bike and DI from EVERYONES PWC *will most likey be the next 2 stroker tech in sleds.
Anything else you guys can think of? Like..who had the first jack shaft layout?, the first CDI ignition? the first involute drive? the first fan cooled motor? first reverse? yada yada yada

all I would add is the fact that the FAST m-10 was the first coupled suspention not built by poo.

Don't know how innovative or trendsetting but how about Scorpion's near legendary pararail suspension,or Cat's use of the Wankel Rotary.

what was the pararail?

It was suspension-boogie wheels mounted to two solid rails, which flexed on a pivoting suspension.

Ski-Doo-Seadoo, the D.E.S.S. keyless tether security system, which has the owners name encoded for computers to read. * Progressive throttle. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1st 10 inch suspension- Blizzard Mx * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Factory installed electric fuel guage, and over 100 mph speedo

Purple ZRT. *

Skidoo

- First to invent a snowmobile.
- First to sell a snowmobile
- First A-arm front suspention. *
- First 4 stroke
- Rave or Exhaust valves.
- DPM computerized carbs.
- RER Electronic reverse.
- First exhaust valve
- Rotary engines
- Cylinder Reed
- SDI fuel injection
- Electric and Air suspention.
- REV chassie, first chassie with a triangle frame and bike siting postion.
-Plastic skis.
-DESS security systems.
-Not sure but i think they were the ones to bring out NICASIL cylinders.
-First to make a 2 stroke with the same emmitions as a 4 stroke.
-Electronic gauges.
-MPEM onboard computer.
-Ignition Maping.
-Exhaust aluminum wraping.
-First to introduce a belt cooling air induction vent on the CK3 Mach and Formula chassies and now on the ZX and REV.


Arctic Cat-

-First 4 cylinder
-First rollar sec
-First 1000cc 2stoke
-First EFI.

Yamaha
First electronic Exhaust valves
First HO 4 stroke
Your comment on resin injected. *Isnt all plasted a resin and then injected?

Polaris.

First Liquid cooled Brakes.

Almost everything comes from doo. *Its mostly because of the size of there pockets but there is also a passion. *

Many people think one company invented somthing like The A-arm front suspention. *Most people would think its cat. *But the story goes that skidoo had it on either the Safari or citation back in the 70s. *I still see them around. *Nothing fansy but it was a arm indipendent suspention. *Cat all of a sudden stole it and patented it. *Since then everything is patented. *Skidoo never forgot this little insident and screwed cat so bad last year. *Cat had a line of muscle sleds coming out somewere in the 1300 cc area either 4 stroke or 2 stroke. *They were using fuel delivery tecnology that skidoo owned the pateted for. *Just as cat was about to put it into production doo's lawyers told cat that if they were going to use that tech they would have to approve. *They didnt. *I found this info out from a friend of mine that works at bombardier. * *

It had somthing to do with orbital injection that suzuki owned shares in but bombardier owned most of it. If I can find more info on this i will post it for you guys.

Cat played a mean game when it came to patenting stuff. *But doo year after year beats them at there own game.

LOL...it's your story and you can tell it how you want..but half of what you said was not true..and the other half was insignificant and the other half was listed twice... http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif *I keep talkin denile man..denile. *I can spend ALL day on the net researching facts...so..I'd be careful what I say.

Go ahead research away. *

http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Im sure there are a few people that will agree with me and most of the points. *

PurpleZRT. *You can be proud all you want with your Arctic cat dont get me wrong. *But dont come here and state that Arctic cat has had more innovations then skidoo. *And belive me anyone that sticks up for skidoo is not in denial. *It sounds to me like your in denial.

As for my story, not many people know about this. *I got it straite from the top. *The trouble had somthing to do with FITCH fuel injection from evinrude and johnson. *Suzuki owned shares in it but as we all know bombardier bought most of it a year or two ago. *This is what started the problem.

Bombardier acquired Evinrude and Johnson in March 2001.

Edited by SWWebmaster.

No this site is not... but if you ask that question again, it will be the last time.

The problem with a topic like this is all the arguing. It does not matter to me who came out with what first.Everyone takes pride in what they own,some more than others. Give me any sled to ride and I will be smiling,just so I can ride. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yes my current sled is a Doo,not all the mods ride Doos

This site isn't communist, the people on here like their brand of sleds, I see that as a good reason to ride theirs, but who cares what happened in the past? *I surely don't, and I only care about their current technology, models....etc...

Purple-
It would appear to me, especially after a comment by you about reading a similar discussion somewhere else, that you started this one with the primary intent of causing controversy. Then you whine about being edited and admit to "mistakes". Take it to a bashing thread....

AL

Purple dont take this wrong. *The moderators are just making sure nothing gets blow out of proportion.

I dont care what sled you ride and i bet you dont care what i ride. *But both of us have the right to be proud of them as does everyone on this site. *However when you create a topic pertaining to facts of history dont bend them or create them. *

Being a big fan of bombardier, when you laid down your 1 pg fact list for Arctic cat and then put down your 3 lines for skidoo I will admit i was like WTF. *Like i said before like your brand all you want but dont come here and tell me that Arctic cat basicly invented the modern snowmobile because that is not the case. *A fact of this sport is that Bombardier spends more then probably Polaris, AC, and Yamaha in R&D in one season. *This is the reason that they come out with all the new innovations, Its not because they are a better, smarter or lucky, Its all because when it comes down to it they dig deeper in there pockets then everyone else. *This is why i constently say that if you want to ride the current tech you have to ride bombardier.

Like the previous poster said, Its all in the past and so should our little argument. *

Getting back to your original topic. *I think we should change it to the 6 biggest innovations. *Forget brands, *Lets just talk about what made our sport so great.

IMO
1. 10inch plus suspention.
2. Hydralic disk brake.
3. The varible Clutch belt transmition.
4. Exhaust valves.
5. New plastic injection technology allowing the awsome designs we see today.
6. The lightweight 2 stroke engines that make big power.

PurpleZRT, you now have a non-commi, cat riding moderator watching this topic as well, so don't worry about the big bad doo riders.hehe JK http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I don't know what you said, but as long as everyone is civil, there is no need to edit or delete anything.....



Last edited by phazerhater at June 21, 2002, 1:18pm

the one fact I can state and none can argue is, the competition is what has made this sport better.all the manufacturers can take credit for pushing each other farther.for that matter most tech. is bought from the aftermarket with deep pockets.

Good point. *

Competition will always make better things.

Can't argue with that~! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

So my project once finishred is going to force Machzzzz1 to make is Z better since it will become competition? Oh, that's right his sled won't give me any competition!!!! HA HA http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Caleb
P.S. you've created a monster Machzzzz1 http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Yeah well...you're list needs some serious changes and all I did was point out line by line where you are right ( pretty much the list I put up) and where you are wrong. *Your moderator buddy apparently didn't want his SD brethren to be wrong...so ZAPPP!! it's gone! Whatever! *I don't buy the deep pockets theory either...Yamaha is a HUGE company and they are dead last in the beeler world. The deep pockets thing is something Bombardier spouts to YOU ..their customer.. to impress you. I've been to many ski-doo shows..heard those EXACT words *first hand from the SD Exec's...how do you say?.ah yes.."Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" *It's the innovative genius of the indvidual R&D groups and NOT the deep pockets. All of these Mfgs are wealthy enough to develope a good idea. It's the IDEAS!! *It often boils down to a few key people or even a single man. It's the American way. *Fact is...Bomb themselves have admitted that the majority of the years they have made Ski-Doo's it's been a secondary company..a hobby if you will. That is also a direct quote from Bomb Exec's. Of course it was then followed by the statement "but thats going to change..we've made it our goal to be #1." *Nice way to sooth the soul of the loyalists wondering why SD can't even build a sled with a working recoil.( those of you with 80's to early 90's models know..he he) The point being....the logic that deep pockets makes Ski-Doo the most innovative company by default is as flawed as your list. *
* * * *

I am die hard cat man but I have to admit the last couple of years it seems that Cat was in a cave, especially in the mountain sector. Hopefully things will begin to change. There are sure alot more Doo's around then Cats......

PurpleZRT, I heard the "hobby" comment from the salesman I was ordering my '01 from. Last I heard he was selling Polarii @ Wally's World. Permafrost & LadyK should know who I'm talking about http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif

One thing that has been missed, weren't all snowmobiles before the '59 Ski-doo rear-engined?

AKCAT....looks like you're a 3x3 guy too. The king kahuna of 3x3's in fact. Ahhhh..the good old days! *We have been ignored...but it's not "entirely" cats fault. Seems the motocrossin twins have captured the minds of the masses and there ain't many of "us" left. In fact..not enough of us to be a concern it seems. I'm pissed actually..I think they could have kept 1, just 1. One freakin triple for us die hards. Maybe make bump the 6 to a 7 with powervalves. PSI said that motor should have been a 700..150+ hp.. with a motor that weights 57 lbs less than the big block...nice!! *The ONLY way my next new sled will be a twin is if NO ONE makes a two stroke triple...Cat dumps me?..well it works both ways! There's a fighting chance Yammy will still have a triple when I'm ready.

skidoo is a secondary company in the ceo's eyes because they bring in less profit, than say the aerospace division.

Dooman, it's sort of scary whenever there is talk in the financial pages about Bombardier's quarterly results. You seldom see anything written about the Rec. Products Div. A year ago after the pefect winter yes, but most of the time nada.

Yea Purple ZRT I am a die hard triple man, so I will either ride this into the ground or have to get a Mach. My dealer told me the ZR 900 was Cat's answer to the big triple until me and my buddy with his T-Cat dusted him.

Of course skidoo is a hobby to bombardier. *But hey i spend most of my money on my hobbys anyway. *I dont have a problem with this or anything else bombardier does. *Its a huge company geared toward trains and airplanes. *But they also make skidoo. *

Think. *A company that makes ultrafast trains, Near Mach speed lear jets and buissness jets, and many other transportation devices will know how to build a sled. *

Say what you want PurpleZRT but bombardier spends big bucks on all of there stuff in Research, R&D, Development and Marketing. *That is why they have unrivled fit and finish, good reliability, and loyal customers. *

And if my list needs changing, *go ahead and point out the mistakes. *Im not saying everything on there is 100% right but belive me theres more right on there then there was on your original list.

Oh Ya. *Sled Dog.

If your doing all the things your telling me to a ZX, You will definitly beat me. * http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif *

However, *my sled is still pretty new and i use it for trail riding because i love its ride so much. *But when i buy a new sled for trail riding i will get real crasy with this one. You know the works.

Machzzz...naaa..been zapped once..no need for a repeat. *To the moderator who zapped me "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". *A suggestion to moderators...if you feel the need to edit..I believe there should be a signature left to hold you accountable. *Absolute power corrupts absolutely and power without accountability is chaos. If someone feels the need to piss in my cheerios..I want to know who it is.

Purplezrt,
* That is true, and it was just the styff I needed to get me smiling this morning! You were zapped unfairly, but your not the first. And I'm sure that you won't be the last! But what is so bad with Bombardier is that they did all the research, built then raced a awesome Rev sled and now they can't sell them! I've spoken to a few dealers and they have all been very low on spring orders. Said they are still selling the ZX better and there doesn't seem to be alot of true interest in it from there core buyers. I wonder if it will catch on for the 04 season. This is why we have all seeen them advertised on the tv so much, to generate interest in new buyers and old alike.
Caleb

Yeah but what do they expect. *Not this season but the one before we had great snow. *I think there wasn't a weekend that we didnt have snow. *This inspired a lot of people to buy new sleds for next season. *As most know this season had very little snow if any. *Most of these new sleds have less then 1000km on them. *For the majority they wont buy a $13500.00 cdn dollar sled until they have a awsome winter and a little proof of there performance. *I trust bombardier enough because they never let me down. *THe S was better then the F chassie. *The Zx was better then the S so im pretty sure the Rev will be better then the Zx and the ZX was Top of its game last season.

This is why i bought the Rev 600Ho X package.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PurpleZRT @ June 24, 2002, 01:17am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Machzzz...naaa..been zapped once..no need for a repeat. *To the moderator who zapped me "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". *A suggestion to moderators...if you feel the need to edit..I believe there should be a signature left to hold you accountable. *Absolute power corrupts absolutely and power without accountability is chaos. If someone feels the need to piss in my cheerios..I want to know who it is.[/b][/quote]
To set the record straight, Purple, I don&#39;t think anyone "zapped" you.

I get a copy of EVERY single post made to the forums, whether or not it is edited or deleted after the fact. I don&#39;t see a post made from you that is missing or edited.

Correct me if I am wrong, but what is missing? It could be entirely possible that noone "zapped" you, it might have just been a forum software snafu...

REPOST IF YOU SEE SOMETHING MISSING. Sounds to me like a honest software glitch...

Here is your ORIGINAL POST via a copy sent to me:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PurpleZRT posted this :
I was reading a discussion in another forum that made me think of this. Which Mfgr has intoduced the most technology that changed sledding. I&#39;ll name the ones I can think of.

AC = First slide rail rear susp. 69? Panther
First 4 cyl ( King Cat)
First production IFS frnt susp. 79 Trail Cat
First A-arm frnt susp 84 El Tigre/Cougar
First Fox shocked susp 90 EXT Special
Really the only production EFI starting with 92 wilcats ( I know, I know..the ReeeXLs, but in lue of a won law suit)
First production roller secondary the 96 or 97 440 ZR
First and so far only 1000cc production 2 stroke
First 4 stroke

SD = Rotary Valve
First Exhaust Valve
First trail adjustable Primary (TRA)
RER ( electronic reverse)
Air adjustable rear susp
First plastic composite skis

Yam = First Oil injection
First resin injection molded hoods
First liquid cooled 4 cyl
First high perf 4 stroke

Pol = First hydraulic brake
First extra LT rear susp
First coupled rear susp
First BNG ( he he)

Super Brute = First liquid cooled ( triple besides)

Anything else you guys can think of? Like..who had the first jack shaft layout?, the first CDI ignition? the first involute drive? the first fan cooled motor? first reverse? yada yada yada
[/b][/quote]

The only changes noted from your original post are items that I figured that you changed. If not, please let me know. I will change your original post to match.

Webmaster...thanks for the response. The thread you posted is not the one I&#39;m refering to. I guess it&#39;s possible something went haywire with the other note I posted...I did send it and then re-opened it though to check for mistakes. Weird. Good God...hopefully I didn&#39;t delete the thing myself by accident. If in fact this was a software glitch I apologize for any unjust comments. FYI..The changes in the thread you posted are changes I made because upon research I found my list was in error.

See it isn&#39;t so bad in here after all! So to all the Moderators we&#39;ve given a hard time to lately I opologize this time! But the past has seen some over moderating for sure. Let&#39;s keep it clean and come out boxing!!!!! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Caleb

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let&#39;s keep it clean and come out boxing!![/b][/quote]
Mike Tyson&#39;s Punchout, original NES. I loved that game!

LOL, The things we remember!!!!!!! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Caleb

Yeah well...just remember SledDog....I took the high road and allowed the computer glitch theory to explain this mystery. So..keep the watchful eye!


Test by DanR !



Last edited by DanR at June 25, 2002, 1:09pm

Just to prove a point i edited your post and if you look at the bottom, you will see edited by DanR at what time...etc

That is done as soon as someone edits a post ! on *the other hand if it is deleted than you will not see who deleted it!

Thanks DanR,
I had thought that showed when a post had been modified. I thought that maybe with the different servor changes and software it might have been changed.
Caleb

I spent a lot of time reading these posts and now it&#39;s my turn. SD, no matter how hard they try,will never be able to build a sled that can compare to AC. I am a die hard polaris man, and will always be watching AC&#39;s development. they have been pushing polaris to stay a leader in their field. AC sleds with good riders, dominate sno-x and are hot on the heels of both *SD and POLARIS in the mountain catagory *also. *if SD outsells AC, it is only because of the sheer numbers of people that live in the east. don&#39;t tell me that SD was the first at this and that because they no doubt bought tech. from aftermarket companies just as much as anyone else. *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif PS. I wonder if my reply will be zapped?

numberone, I doubt if your post will be zapped, although it may be taken apart by other users who may disagree, but you know what? *It is your 2 cents and I&#39;m sure that you aren&#39;t posting this to infuriate anybody.

I for one am glad Ski-Doo doesn&#39;t make a Arctic grade of sled. I don&#39;t want to get a bundle of zip ties, or a die grinder to clean out the pipes from pi$$ poor welding, poor toleranced, miss matched engine components, week handlebar supports, and snow eating ram air motorcycle type air box inlets. Oh and easy warp brake rotors. Now I may get zapped. I end up working on these Cat&#39;s after the so called Dealer prep. To make them come up to their potential. What an incredibly wide spec tolerance they have. Start milling boys! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/baaa.gif

I agree with sharky. *

The last thing i would want is skidoo to build a sled like AC or be compaired to one. *

Numberone- *Im sure your a die hard polaris fan, and watching Arctic Cats development is like watching rocks grow compaired to skidoos development. *If you can prove otherwise please correct me. *But from what i have seen skidoo does major changes, Adds new computer controled stuff each year, and uses neat weight saving features like RER. *This does not sound like a company lagging behind in development.