Just took apart my wifes 2004 500SS secondary and it is basically the old formula style secondary with the black RER secondary spring in it. So there is no torsional load on spring.
I am thinking this might be an excellent way to tune the race sled. Skidoo black is 160/300 and the purple is 220/300. If anyone who wishes they could use a steeper start on their race sled but fear they will need to run 28lbs....this might be the answer.
eg.
my race sled will pull peak rpm perfect but will labour out of the hole. I can reduce initial helix angle but lose acceleration (tested fact) or I can increase pre-tension and have too much for final rpm therefore having to reduce pin weight. Not good either.
With no pre-tension in the picture I all I would need to do is increase initial start on driven spring and final left the same.
Any thoughts?

might try a primary spring with the next stiffer engagment tension?

on the rer spring in the form sec, are they using a washer or bushing on the end of the spring so it doesn't wear in?

I'll just get5 the bushing for the 500 SS. Like I said they appear to be same clutch just the helix on the 500SS has the back cut for RER.
Increase in primary will increase engagement and suffer traction problems.

[quote]
Just took apart my wifes 2004 500SS secondary and it is basically the old formula style secondary with the black RER secondary spring in it. So there is no torsional load on spring.

Explain what you mean by this?
Their are no parts in the old style secondary that will work on an RER secondary or vice versa.
I would think if your are building a race sled you would want the old style as the options are greater.

the 500SS does not have the HPV RER Secondary. It looks just like yours. Picture your helix with a little cut off the back for RER. same helix principle not the big RER helix. Still has the 6 holes in it but uses the Black RER helix.
Explaing to me how the old the options are greater.

There several RER springs availble now.
Not bashing your thoughts just really want to get into this b4 next summer to decide which direction.

Kragar I tell ya, you have my mind spinning at the possibilities here with dumping the torsion spring.

Do you have the part number for the spring cup holder and dished washer for this setup?
Heh, im gonna order one and start to go to work on some sleds with this compression spring. WOO!!! :devil:

...might be good? might not, but i'll look at problems as opportunities. he he eh

L8R
Joey

don't have the # but it should be under the 2004 500SS micro fiche. Didn't realize the plastic bushings would be a factor but they must be in there ofr a reason. :bash:

pics of 500SS helix and spring

Yes it'll work, and you dont need the plastic washer. The 500ss uses the formula RER, same clutch with dual buttons on the towers and a slight back cut on the helix for RER to function.

TT670 do you think there is added benefit over the torsional springs?

ok, i am all confused now. I have rer on my 99 dlx and just took the thing apart. I have a splined helix, and a torsion spring. How many variations can there be???

Holley crap I didnt even know there was such a clutch?? so would that secondary work on say like a 97 machz-1 with the splinned shaft? and what would be the benifit of running the same style clutch as a standard? I have a standard machz clutch that I bought to try out some cams when there was no rer cams but again even that clutch is splinned.

use the RER springs in any secondary and the normal helixs

Ok I see what you are talking about with the helix. Is this a one year wonder?
I still dont understand how you can use an RER spring in a regular secondary and wind it up, their are no ###### to put in the holes.
My RER secondary purple spring does have a small ###### on one end but nothing on the other, you must have 2 ###### to wind it up.
I also have a Goodwin RER spring and it is titless. :blush:

thats the whole idea mike, take the torsion out of the picture. Setting the pre-load at 18lbs for a straight 50 DEG will be different than a 50/44. With RER springs it will be constant.

I checked the 04 and 05 specs and found the black spring used in the 500 secondary is NOT the same as the RER black and may? be sized for the formula sec?. It's 417 126 801 and is called a green/green (not the same as the primary grn/grn). The same cam (44 long) is used in both the reverse 500's and the Non reverse. The non reverse uses the beige wind up spring in 04, the 05's (500's) all get the green green.

that grn/grn is a 180/300, black is a 160/300 and purple is a 220/300 all secondary springs and I have already put one to gether just to play around with. and it fits fine.
These are all secondary springs Hillpounder

so to complicate this clutch situation a little more, I just put a new Bombi secondary spring in my 99 rer and it is factory 'yellow' and it has stems for locating. this is the thing..... any holes you put the spring in it has no wind up load on it. in fact when installed, the rer cam buttons are floating BETWEEN the fwd and reverse cams. not pleloaded at all. and to make matters worse, I loaded the spring a quarter turn when I assembled it, and it has no top end, but it is fine if you don't wind it on assembly. .......HMMMMM....the helix is 47/44

thanks Krager, I'll add to your list Red 135-303, Blue 157-214

the green that you have listed as 180-300 is part # 486 130 046
the green/green is 417 126 801 which makes me think it's different? also the fact they identify it with 2 colors? looking at the clutch calibrations between 500 models it appears to shift the same as a beige@18lbs

Originally posted by kragar@Dec 22 2004, 07:33 PM
thats the whole idea mike, take the torsion out of the picture.* Setting the pre-load at 18lbs for a straight 50 DEG will be different than a 50/44.* With RER springs it will be constant.
378834

this is what i was doing asphalt just using a standard secondary with the stock cam(machz) and i would not twist the secondary to preload it. i would just put the 2 halves together just like you would with the rer secondary. it really worked well but thats for asphalt

Hillpounder you could be right I was only assuming one green spring. There has to be more tuneability as you are taking one variable out of the picture to simplify the equation.
For my current problem on my racesled......this is my only solution wothout toally revamping my current clutching program. A shallower start on the helix or a higher engagement both proved to be less in performance.
As far as a baseline, yes the current skidoo RER springs are calibrated using the standard weight in the primarys( I think) but even skidoo has started to reduce finish angles on their stock set-ups. Who would have thought anything other than a straight 50 DEG would work..hehehe
sorry a little off topic.
I guess what I am saying is for anyone who is thinking on trying this(I haven't yet) should have an easy time getting the initial set-up close right off the bat.

Well here is my scenerio, I have a 99Mach1 with RER that I run on asphault. After porting and other things I started getting a "Overshift" in my driven. A friend suggested a "blue" spring from the race shop. The spring has a tang on each end for torsional setting. I put it on #4 at approx. 22lbs. The overshift is gone and the RER works great, I run a 47/44 on asphault. I am still new to the clutching scene and I am still learning. Thanks to this site it makes understanding things better SWRules SWRules

erlandson and goodwing have others as well with a stiffer finish to correct your over shift too

Yellow SRER3 235 350
Red SRER2 205 310

goodwin
blue yellow 220/330

Originally posted by kragar@Dec 21 2004, 08:54 PM
TT670 do you think there is added benefit over the torsional springs?
378400

Absolutely, once you play with them you really begin to love them. Taking the torsional wrap out of the picture makes tuning a secondary as easy as the primary, no guess work with preload and different helixes with the holes indexed differently etc...Theres becoming a nice selection of springs for us to choose from too. I like the erlandson red, its roughly a 200/300 so its stiffer intially than the bombi green but is still softer than the Bombi purple.