F7 dyno numbers- 7700rpm peak torque with 94.3 lbs
* * * * * * * * * * * * 8000rpm peak hp with 140.1
They also said it stayed right with the zr 900 in a drag.
It lacks the power of the 800 twins to around 7200rpm, then it is right with them or better. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif * Oh well I guess. *From dynos I have seen the rotax 800 is the weaker twin, but the messing around I did last year, I could hold my own against a cat or pol. *Doo has lightest 800 machine ( zx-x & rev) but the F7 is very light.
F7-435
800Rev-454
800ZX-X-474
ZR800-507
800ProX-483
800XCSP-498

I am not saying it is a good sled or not, but the sled they are running is a ringer. They evaluated it last Jan or Feb, 6 months before it ever saw production. This is a sled that was setup by Cat R+D and sent to the mag for evaluation. Let's see where the production sleds run before we call it like it is.

Just like the Viper last year. Never saw one that could keep up with the hype that the mags gave it. It still took allot of work to get them to keep up with the 800 twins they were supposed to beat up on.

I read in the article that it was dynoed at the cat factory as well http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif *that is enough for me.says when they are avail. they will do another test at dynoport with a production model.I bet it is similar to the viper they tested last year that was going to smoke us all,well it never happened.

I'll bet the average cat consumer will not get 135 horse, the proto's are milled to hand perfection, and a wider porting tolerance than a warrantied consumer machine. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif The 800 twin was close to 150 on the race tracks and not even 140 to average Joe. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

even if its 130-135 hp,being only 435lbs its going to be a very hard sled to beat in the 1/4 mile.on amsnow in the ask the engineer forum ,greg spaulding(developed engine) stated that the production f7 will be 140 no b.s,so we will see if he lives up to his word..

Yea, but who has the last say in how it is built is the Manufacturing Eng. Things like the exhaust, casting of the cyl. etc... all have to be considered. This stuff is exp. and any corner will be nubbed to save big $$ in production.

This motor is going to be a peaky motor. It is a bigger version of the 440. The motr will come on fast, not like the 800 and the 900. Just about anyone can clutch one of the BBlock twins, but I think you will see this motor is going to be like the S Block Pol. motors. The sweet spots are small. It is going to take a good tuner to get the potential out of it.

I help wrench on a race sled for a friend. Where they work is a marina that used to sell Cats. They never had a sled come from the factory with the power that the service manuals said they had, even with perfect jetting.

Just stick this engineer to the statement that all of them will have 140hp. go pick one up and head to the dyno. it doesn't lie.

This will not be the first ringer sled that has gone to the mags, and ALL of the mfgrs. are guilty of it. The government even busted down on Polaris last year for it. When the EPA went and tested sleds off of the showroom for emissions, they foud that they were 50% dirtier than the ones Polaris submitted for EPA testing.

Has anybody ever noticed that Am Snow tends to favor Cats?? I have went back through all of my issues and they pick them allmost evey time as the best sled in the comparison section *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I was reading the paid side on am snow & GLS said they now have the completed production engine with pipe as what is being sold to the public & it puts out as much or more HP as the proto engins of last winter. He said this surprised AC because they are usually less. He was happy to tell the consumer that they would have 138 to 140 HP .

in the article ,section ON THE DYNO "since this is such a new engine ,we had to work a little magic in order to get the test done.while we normally use dynoport's facilitys,we were forced to turn to the factory for a helping hand.when the f7's actually roll off the assembly line,we'll put one of those on the dynoport bench as well." read into this what you may but it looks like just an ad to me.I do not trust any manufacturer that claims their sleds hit a big number.there are to many variables to say they will all hit 140 hp stock.I will not say they will not hit 140 hp,I just will say for now I am very doubtful they will.not only cat but doo as well my 00 700 had 7 hp less than the one tested in the mags,and they said production versions would climb in hp over the sandcast pre-production units.mxz800 said it best they will cut all the corners they can to contain costs and improve profits.just remember the fine print they reserve the right to change specification at any time. p.s. nice to see you around mxzwfo, hows the new job?

The F7 will pack a big punch regardless of what the actual production hp is. The concept of this sled as a whole is a good one. Just from reading the mags and so forth, its sounds like this will be the 700 to beat. My brother-in-law orderd an F7 for him and a F5 for the wife. I have a stock 02 MXZ 700 and feel that he is going to whoop on me. Time will tell. Cat has always made exceptional machines and has a great racing history. The hp #s that they gave us in the past were right on the money,its just the wieght that they lied about. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Didn't cat claim 95hp for the Zr500 and evry dyno pulled a avg of 97hp. I do think it will be quite stout atleast the 140hp but not much more.
Caleb

Its all a sales a pitch. Someone at Cat obviously thinks publishing these numbers increases sales. Until consumers wise up and want proof of production performance before they buy, manufacturers will continue to stretch the truth and limit information.

Preserve your back and ride a REV.
Dollars to doughnuts Yam, Pol, and A/C are already working to properly centralise the rider like the REV for 2004. No matter what the cost. You can't compete with physics and expect to win.

Has anybody here ever seen or performed a dyno on a stock Doo 800 twin? *Last year the AMSnow showed 134-135. *Is that fairly accurate or was it rigged too?

All this talk *before there is even an inch of snow in the ground. I usually try to stay away from what the companies qoute as HP... You want a dyno test, give me 6", the sled, and let me squeeze the trigger and I will let you know how the sled runs. The fact is the F-7 is very light and with a light as$ guy like me on it and almost 135 HP the sled is going to be near uncontrollable. A kind of problem i would love to have. I think the F-5 would satisfy most of our appetites. just my 2 cents

Well said Louis. I don't need to add any more.

I talked to a guy that read on the paid side of american snow *that Cat is reporting that the F7 came in 25 pounds heavier than originally reported, can anybody else varify this? *If this is true, maybe it's good that Yamaha has kept their mouth shut about the RX-1's weight *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif

I would say after the lack of spring orders(for a Rev) would have the other manufacturers saying better them than us.there is not as many people looking at the Rev as they thought would be,at least not looking with their wallets.thats what counts, to the bean counters.I am hearing good reliable rumors of a zx triple from doo for '04 ,so they have not forgotten us all.

Cats numbers have been fairly accurate as of late......in the HP department anyways, remember while their 700 may make as much HP as others 800's the torque curve will be narrower, and more than likely lower as well. If the sled only ends up with 130 HP and is 435 lbs it will be a screamer running right with all of the 800 twins out there. I cant wait because when the snow drops the BS stops.

It doesnt matter how many spring orders the REV has gotton. *My dealer already broke his spring order sales record thanks to the rev. *Anyway the moment the revs hit the trails next season everyone will see that there no messing with this sled. *If you follow a rev in the corner with a regular sled and the driver was driving aggressive belive me you wont be able to hold the corner. *

The revs handling is amazing, *like nothing you ever saw before. *IMO the fire cat is a simular kind of machine to the rev but the REV will kill it in every aspect except maybe a drag. *OHWELL thats why there both not drag sleds. *Because a well tuned Mach will still humiliate all!!!

Mighty RX-1, I did see that on another forum, the source for that informaton was Greg Spaulding, AC engineer. If I remember correctly they have to modify some things,can't remember all but I think some of that had to do with heat exchangers, maybe brake position. Also not sure if was 25 exactly , but maybe in the 15 -25 lb range.

Sounds like the same hype we hear every year. *It would be more believable if Am Snow was not affiliated with Arctic Cat.

I thought I heard that they had to get the brake out of the tunnel because of wear/warp issues.

I read somewhere that they were problems with ice buildup in the caliper area.

#1 Weight-The weight will be 10lbs. more due to extra reinforcment on the tunnel, brake being moved back to the normal location, added heat exchangers (at least they won't overheat like the Vipers http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ), and some changes to the suspension. The brake is not because of exxcessive warping or ice build up. They changed for reliability reasons though.

#2 Horsepower-The motor is BETTER then the protos!!!!! Protos were running 135-140hp. The productions should be seeing the same or better.

#3 Sales-For whoever said that there dealer had record spring sales........so did mine with the Firecats. As a matter of fact, he sold more F7's this spring then he has sold sleds in previous springs!! I don't see Cat making a Rev want-to-be. The FC are doing good and they came out better then wat they expected.

#4 Rev-I don't see the Rev beating anyone around a corner. I wouldn't be saying how great the are on the corners till we get a production model on the trail. I am interested to see how they are and will be looking for a new sled next year. I hope the RX1 is as great as they are saying but it looks like I will be on a Cat agian next year.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (M10rules @ Aug. 01, 2002, 10:37pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The brake is not because of exxcessive warping or ice build up. They changed for reliability reasons though.[/b][/quote]
There must have been a issue. Any idea what these "reliability" reasons were?

The reason they moved the brake back up instead of like the sno pros like we race is on trails & ditches you could hit rocks & damage it .Not to likely to happen in Sno Pro racing.

M10rules.

Ive driven the rev and the released model will be pretty much the same thing as what i drove. *They might change a few things but for the most part we know what were getting.

In a corner or track this sled will dominate by a huge margen. *Its unbelivably nimble and quick. *A firecat, ZX, RX1, ZR wont even come close to touching this thing in the corner. *It corners so hard you have to watch out because you might get thrown. *It accually trys to suck you off the machine is corners so hard. *Can we all say G force. *

THe handling is so quick and you as a rider dont have to lean to turn makes this sled the ultimate package for an aggressive trail rider. *

I had so much fun with it last season that i had to buy one. *Going into a corner at 60km and just slaming the bars cause the sled to do a almost 90degree turn if your leaning just a little over the front bars. *It litraly trys to pry you off the machine. *

Ive driven mxz Zx, ZR, SRX, and most performance machines and none of them come close to this, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

I can honestly say that if your in it for the ride, hold of on the FIRE CAT and test drive a REV, you will never go back. *If your in it because your loyal then stick with the cat, im sure it will be pretty fast also.

Mach, have you ridden the FC or RX yet. How do you know the Rev will handle better? If this thing corners so great we should be seeing all the Oval racers switching this winter then huh?

Now I keep up with and normally take corners faster then most people with my 600 Classic. And it doesn&#39;t try to throw me. So what your saying about the Rev is actually making me laugh at how great it suppose to be. I agree with the fact that the Rev thing will be a great ditch banger, but I have heard to many people who have rode one (even SD riders) that didn&#39;t like it at all. Even one die hard SD rider who kept his 2002 instead of getting a Rev because he hated how it rode on the trails so much.

Just a reminder, DO NOT let this turn into a pissing contest guys...

Again... I&#39;m going to reserve my opinion until the snow hits and all can be tested.

Besides...pissin&#39; contests suck, man. Nobody wins. Wait &#39;til we can put down tracks and we&#39;ll see who does what where.

I opted to keep my &#39;02 MXZ X instead of going for the REV for the simple reason that I could not think of one reason to get rid of it. There isn&#39;t ONE thing that I don&#39;t like about it. My wife on the other hand wanted out of her Mach 1 and ordered a REV. I guess we&#39;ll see what&#39;s what when it snows.

idooski-right on, lets wait to say anything till the snow flies and we get to see the real sleds run down the trails.

I held off to see how the new sleds turn out. The 4 options I am looking at are the F7, RX1, New 800 in my 2001 Classic, or maybeeeee.........a Rev. If the F7 comes out under 450 lbs. dry and at least 135, I will consider it for next year. If the RX1 is 550 or so dry and actually has the 140 hp, then I will consider it too. The Rev, it will have to have 0 problems and be the greatest ever. I would never hear the end of it from the buddies if I got a SD. If none of the sleds live up to the hype, then the 600 Classic gets a 800 dropped in!! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

My wife as Idooski&#39;s likes the new REV. for a smaller person they like the seating position better. They dont have to reach for the handle bars and they can use thier thighs to help hold on. On the other hand a larger person sitting in the up right position as you do on a REV will fatigue much quicker. As for handling, it is going to be hard to beat the REV, trust me. The only problem the REV will have is the twin carbide skis in loose snow. The skis work awsome on a hard packed trail but will push harder that a Winston Cup car on ice in lose, fluffy snow

I just want to make a comment re: AMSNOW Magazine...I think thats the one.. i bought two mags at once so I could be wrong as to the mag name and I don&#39;t have it with me right now, Anyways... I recall reading about the Firecat, how the controls were "backward" as they were on the throttle side and they even mention an Articat rep or something admiting that "they dropped the ball" by puttin it on that side... no big deal IMO. *Then you read about the REV... the comment very positive about the layout of the control pod. *Then... when you read the points rating where they compared and gave the FC top marks, it had ALOT more points in the controls section vs the REV... hmmmm???

How about their statement about the REV being "confused" in a sweeping turn? *Confused???... what is that supposed to mean?? *Hmmm.... I have an opinion who is confused. *Not to bash an mags but cmon, say something that makes sense (ie its unstable or something that a machine could be... how can a machine be confused!!&#33http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif *

I still buy pretty well all the mags as it helps keep the edge off.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyways... I recall reading about the Firecat, how the controls were "backward" as they were on the throttle side and they even mention an Articat rep or something admiting that "they dropped the ball" by puttin it on that side... no big deal IMO. *Then you read about the REV... the comment very positive about the layout of the control pod. *Then... when you read the points rating where they compared and gave the FC top marks, it had ALOT more points in the controls section vs the REV... hmmmm???
[/b][/quote]


The people I know that rode the Rev said that the contorls are clustered and hard to adjust with gloves on. They did say it looks good just not funtional. Cats are easier to use but in a bad location. When your as far ahead as the FC are going to be, you don&#39;t have to worryabout letting up on the throttle for a couple of seconds to adjust the handwarmers http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Sorry, couldn&#39;t resist! I agree with the controls being in a bad spot and that would be the first thing I would change if I got one.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (idooski @ Aug. 02, 2002, 4:48pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I opted to keep my &#39;02 MXZ X instead of going for the REV for the simple reason that I could not think of one reason to get rid of it. There isn&#39;t ONE thing that I don&#39;t like about it.[/b][/quote]
Same *reason I kept my &#39;01 for another season. I&#39;ll see what &#39;04 brings.

I think sometimes we have to read the magazines with a large grain of salt. I see them as entertainment, but I wouldn&#39;t want to base any purchases on what I read. I have more faith in asking a rider who was riding a sled or using a certain accessory. At times the magazines seem vague in their comments.

I agree that the REV has really *good turning. I got to race one at one of the local races and it has good turning but need clutch work, LOTS of it. *But is the precsion ski&#39;s. twin carbide that makes all the difference. I tryed a 02&#39; MXZX 600 and it is the same..its all in the ski&#39;.

well in my opinion

The rev handles way better than my 2001 mxz 600, but mine did not have precision skis either. *But ryan i dont think it is all in the skis because when we drove it, the snow was all slushy and stuff so they werent really digging into the snow, also it had a-arm suspension now that makes an improvement. *When did you drive the 02 mxz 600? you never told me about that.

I’m sure the most important thing about the REV’s handling is the rider position relative to the sled’s CG. *Tilt your handle bars back and ride your sled sitting on the back of the seat and then tilt them way forward and ride sitting on the tank. *It’s a huge improvement sitting atop the CG.

Fortunately for REV fans SKI DOO was prepared and confident enough that with a little determination you could actually test drive one. If last winter was better there would have been even more test riders. I hope this begins a trend. Like a car I want to test drive an all new model.

I am not bashing A/C because SD has there woes too but A/C should not have been bragging about this massive weight reduction without proving out their design first. Their must have been some indication that the brakes weren&#39;t feasible. I would be ticked knowing that an F7 has lost some of its edge and is getting fatter over the summer. I hope the pipe positioning isn&#39;t next on the list. The power margin is narrowing between the F7 and the REV.
(although its a 700 vs. an 800 I like the debate).
http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would be ticked knowing that an F7 has lost some of its edge and is getting fatter over the summer. I hope the pipe positioning isn&#39;t next on the list. The power margin is narrowing between the F7 and the REV.
(although its a 700 vs. an 800 I like the debate).
[/b][/quote]

Agian, the weight gain is only going to be 10lbs. Wow, thats alot?!?! (sarcastic voice) The HP is going to be right at the 140 hp mark. Lets see what the actual Rev numbers are when it hits production.

M10 it doesnt matter. *Belive me when i say that there wont be a machine that can out handle a rev next year. *Its because of the sitting position and how the sled is balanced. *You will not be able to control a sled as well if your sitting at the rear end of it in the old driving style. *Its common physics. *

And belive me. *The only reason AC and Yamaha are not giving test runs is because the rev is seen and felt. *Anyone that would clime on a FC after driving the REV would know in a instant that the REV is the machine to buy and that would kill AC&#39;s hype.

I know it may bother you that Arctic cat is not offering anything simular to the rev so your bashing it, but im not about that this time around. *The rev really is the optimal way of riding and its a break thru in sled handling. *Anyone that rode it and opts to keep there old one is set in there ways. * I rode it for about 15 min in which time i had a chance to play with all the buttons and anyone that cant easly control the buttons are wearing boxing gloves.

You better believe 10lbs is alot. Thats a 2.3% increase and also 50% of their claimed weight advantage over the REV.
GM advertises the Corvette Z06 uses TITANIUM exhaust which saves 15 lbs. Prorate that on a 3500lb car vs. a 435 lb sled gaining 10lbs and you tell me.
My point is that people have made a $12000 purchase based on a package that is supposed to be cutting edge. F7 has lost some of that edge.
When the time comes lets look at track horsepower #&#39;s. Then we will apply that to overall weight. The REV has the TRIII which I am hoping squeezes out a couple more ponies to the track.


By the way lay off the sarcasm.
http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif

The Cat drag racers are being told the F-7 will be 20 lbs. more than the prototype, thicker bellypan and tunnel, heat exchangers brake, and rails. This should make it more durable and still be the fastest 700. But no longer any better overall than a 800. The Zr-900 should be the overall boss. Over 450lbs. dry, that still ain&#39;t to bad.

I am not trying to bash here, but after reading the new Amsnow, they said that the REV has some serious handling issues. I just wanted to say it before a cat guy did! (lol).

I am sure it will get figured out, but the REVs that they rode had some serious high speed handling problems. I can see this with a arms and long travel.

It might be apples to oranges here, but I have raced R/C cars on a national level for 12 years. Gone to many national championships. Anyways, we did allot of suspension tweeking when I raced for Team Associated, and found out allot about susp. tuning, at least A Arm susp. tuning.

We used to run just enough front travel that got us by because of an effect called "ackerman" What happens is when you fly into a corner and the chassis rolls, the toe in can change, thus providing a "darting" feeling. The more chassis roll encontered, the more toe-out will occur. This will make one have to "hunt" with the handle bars in order to keep it pointed the way that you want.

This effect will happen in all IFS, it is more suceptable on A Arms, especially with the longer travel. I do not know about this years Cat&#39;s front travel spec, but they had to reduce a few years ago to compensate. The ZLs had more travel, but had to use allot stiffer torsion bars to compensate. This is also why the REV&#39;s upper A-Arm is so laid back vs. the lower. This is commanly called "castor" and effectivly changes where the point of break where the ackerman will start to come into effect. I see that the cat AWS uses allot of Castor also, much more than a sled with trailing arms.

IMO the REV is just a 2 year old Blade with a different motor. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/baaa.gif *
According to what I have read machzzz, the new Blade is the hands down "best handling sled" out there(which all depends on the rider) *I think that is about the only bragging rights that Blade has, but still it&#39;s "supposed" to be the best at that at least. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The Rev is not a 2 year old blade. *It is a totally redisigned, diffrent approch at designing a sled.

AMSNOW can say what they want. *I really dont care. *All i know is that when i drove it i was totally amazed. *I thought it would handle better but not by that much. *If a zx tried to turn like that there would be a huge roll over. *

Im sure bombardier will fix or tweek any handling probs before we take delivery. *All they were trying to do is get the sled out there for some rides and so people could see them. *

Bombardier has a lot of confidence in this sled, so i do as well.

They had alot of confidence in the piece of crap CK-3 too. *CK-3 stood for competition Killer- triple, It should have been BK-3, *Back killer - triple http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I&#39;m impressed with FC so far but i dont&#39; think if I had the money tht i would have reserved one. *There was no way of knowing what your getting. *There is a clause in the contract saying that everything is subject to change. *Last years cce sleds were supposed to come with front clicker shocks. *My friends showed up and guess what no clickers I think alot of guys were disappointed with this. *Who knows what all they will change on the FC. *I think this coming season is going to be alot of fine tuning for the FC, Rev, and RX-1 but it should be interesting. *I can&#39;t wait to see what these new designs are capable of.

CK3 is not a peice of crap. *I dont understand why people say its a hard sled to drive. *Yes its heavy but not a heavy as that RX1 tank. *Once you put presision skis on it you can drive with the ZX&#39;s in tight trails as long as theres no major mogals.

The CK3 is also lightyears better then the ZX when it comes to drag racing. *The way you sit on a CK and the way the sled is ballanced it is more suited to hitting small mogals at high speed rather then going with the touchy ZX.

It definitly has its plus points and it minuses but I dont mind driving it and I still feel its not hampering my performance or driving.

800MXZ
Could ackerman be attributed to the accumulation of flex throughout the suspension components which ends up throwing off ski track.
Looking at where the REV A-arms mount to the bulkhead there is no pin or tubing connecting the mounting points where cat and RX-1 have this feature. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif

Further:
I assume SD feels this is not required with the amount of chassis stiffness.

Ackerman han no effect on stiffnes. It is geometry.

When the chassis goes into the corner, one side wants to compress, and one wants to extend. The outside side a arms move up, while the inside want to extend.

I will try to explain. Let&#39;s say the sled was hanging in the air, with no front shocks on it, and the handlebars turned 75% to the right. Go to the left ski and cycle the suspension to full top travel. You will see that the ski will turn in and out as the suspension is cycled. Now, this is not bump steer, as bump steer is the changing of the camber thru the susp. cycle.

Honestly, there is no cure, it is just life with IFS. We made allot of changes in steering linkage, and a non-rack system could be made to fix most of it. But this would cost allot of $ to make.

Yamaha, while not that much travel, has the best IFS geometry of all the A Arm susp. only because of the very long a arms. This makes the angle that the suspension changes much less dramatic.

Was there some benefit then to the independent shock tower design found on the Yamahas of the 80&#39;s.

actually 800mxz that is bump steer.I think you have the two backwards ackerman and bump steer.it is trying to steer the sled as the suspention cycles through the bump. I had to do some major testing to eliminate the problem on my race car.

From my documentation, "bump-steer" would be the changing of the castor thru the suspension cycle. Looking at the front of the spindle strait on. Cycle the suspension and the top of both spindles will come closer to each other the farther up the travel is. Basically the top of the spindle will tip in towards the sled, changing the angle of the bottom of the ski (tire) in relationship to the ground.

A good way to look at ackerman is to look strait down above the sled with the skis pointing forward. Looking forward with both skis are parallel. Turn full lock to the right. You will see the ski on the right will turn let&#39;s say 23 degrees clockwise. The ski on the left will turn lets say only 20 deg. clockwise. They will no longer be parallel to each other. Cycle the left ski up and down and it will change quite a bit from the bottom of the travel to the top. Turn the skis full lock to the left, and you will see the same thing, but on different sides.

If anyone is intested, I could use one of the R/C cars to demonstrate with some pics.

The pogo-stick front end would be the same relationship.

Dooman - What i think you are talking about as bump steer is the toe-in changing while cycling the front susp. If you look down from the top, the skis will point in towards each other the closer to the top of the susp. travel you get.

What is making things move is the location of the tie rod ends. Looking from the side, the inboard steering tie rod end is fixed, while the outer is not. The outer moves with the spindle. Wheather it is fixed to a a-arm, trailing arm, pogo stick, whatever... it still moves up and down.

The length of the tie rod is fixed. But since the inner is fixed, and the outer is not, the tie rod will change angles differntly than the A Arms.

It is complicated, and has taken me a long time to get a very small knowledge of it. The susp. on our little cars have a much more tunable susp. than anything short of F1 cars.

Castor change, anti-squat, length of the upper Arm length, angle of the upper A-Arm, ackerman, and some have different places to change the same thing.

I am going to start a thred with some pics, maybe we all can get something out of it.