Without playing manufacturer favorites, who has produced the best lineup for 2006 that will create the largest impact on snowmobiling. Even though I am a Ski-doo fan my vote goes to Yamaha. They are really pushing the four stroke market which is what I like to see.

Geez, I have to go with Polaris. They have been out of the game for a couple of years now but they are back in big time !!! Still love Ski-Doo and will have my sled for a couple more years but if I was in the market I would be looking at the 600HO or 700 Fusions or the 600HO REV. Would have to ride both of them first and then make my decision. Who knows, maybe in a couple of years I can pick up a used 2006. I can still dream though. :D By the way, Yamaha would be my second pick for 2006 impact, then Ski-Doo, then Arctic Cat.

Pretty much the same opinion here.

Have to agree with Yamaha,as they had the stones to put a high performance 4 stroke in a rider forward type chassis,and those sleds look hot. This in no way reflects my opinion on the 2 vs. 4 stroke debate however. The fours have emission issues that will have to be addressed in the coming years,(the added weight of catalytic converters to reduce Nx output,and higher compression or turbo's adding to it) And the two strokes have to address cooling and lubrication despite a cleaner fuel burn. I don't think there is a clear winner yet, despite all of the slanted opinions,I believe only time and technology will tell. :thumbsup:

Filled up my Legend today (which I love dearly) and figured out 10.3 mpg. Drive like an old lady out for a Sunday drive. If they can continue to bring the weight down and not force me to remortgage the house then it's blue I go.

I'm trying not to show any bias here :p but I think that Yamaha is actually serious about this 4-stroke thing.... and we all thought it was just a fad.... :D While Skidoo definitely took the crown for most innovative with the intro of the REV platform a few years back, Yammy definitely takes the crown this year attempting to offer a 4 stroke sled for just about anybody - trail cruiser, touring crowd, aggressive rider and .. dare I say it ... ditch-banger??? While I still can't justify the expense or weight of a 4 stroke, I know that my day is coming..... Hopefully Andy gives me a ride on his new Apex next year. :whistling:

I'm a die hard Doo rider but I have to say the new Yamis with improved seating position, Fox float shocks and EFI on the Apex, they have a pretty good looking 2006 line. The 4-strokes from these guys get better and better every year. I like the ditch banger Nytro best.

I love hearing these unbiased opinions!!! Karl27 I have the exact same thoughts as you. I'm diehard ski-doo but as soon as I saw ski doo's lineup vs. Yamaha's I just thought wow those are nice sleds!!!

Yammy by far. They are stepping up the competion to a whole new level.



Bauer

I probably am being a little biased, but for this year, I would go with Polaris. Lot of new innovations (for Polaris). Yamaha is pretty close, but 2005 was a bigger for them (Vector, new suspensions) than 2006. IMHO Have to agree with Andy though, the Apex looks like a sweet sled.

Got to go with Yammy for sweetest line-up for 06. Polaris added a bunch of sleds and tech for 06 but the Fusions just arent flashy IMO. Pretty impressed with the Polaris Classic 750 FST turbo though. It looks good with the nicer RMK hood, and has the M-10 for a great ride and 135hp from a 750 4 stroke is really potent :D .

Nicest looking sled for 06 is the Yamaha Apex. The seat might be a little oversized, but man does that hood style look smokin :cool:.

I think Yamaha has made the biggest impact with thier 4-strokes but I don't think it will be enough to take over marketshare. I think ski-doo will still keep that, In fact, after seeing what all 4 manufacturers have to offer I think it will go something like.

Ski-Doo

Yamaha

Polaris

Arctic Cat

Could be wrong but its just an opinion

most everything now is a copy of yellow.

I think Ski-doo and their sdi is the biggest thing. They have three motors that are EPA compliant the 600/800 and the 1000 and they're all two-strokes and from what I have heard get good mpg. Next I would have to say Yammi, they have the 4stroke thing pretty tied up.

Originally posted by paul yarek@Mar 11 2005, 03:13 PM
most everything now is a copy of yellow.
410140



Geez Paul, can't you come up with a better comment than that? Or are just trying to drive up your PPD rate (posts per day)? Yammie's just copying doo? With 4 stroke/EFI? The Fusion and ICQ?

Let me start by saying I've been riding Doo almost exclusively for over 30 years. For the first time ever, my loyalty is now coming into question and starting to lean toward Yamaha. Their 06 lineup looks incredible!

Now if Doo can hurry up and direct inject their sleds (SDI just doesn't quite cut it for me, and "cleanfire" is just an SDI copy)...I'll likely jump right back into yellow. Hey manufacturers, I'm BEGGING for a DI 2-stroke! Any of you listening?!?!? Whoever does it first will get my business real quick.

But for now, Yamaha appears to have the best offerings, hands down. Never thought I'd ever say that...

Funny how nobody has even mentioned Cat. Nothing worth mentioning, I guess...

Originally posted by craze1cars@Mar 11 2005, 03:39 PM
Funny how nobody has even mentioned Cat.* Nothing worth mentioning, I guess...
410258


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

What is the difference between an F7 R EFI vs. F7 EFI??? I'm guessing R must stand for reverse??? Only thing that makes sense.

What is all this Attack 20, and Challenger stuff on Cat's mountain sleds??

My vote went to Yamaha in case you were wondering. 4 strokes are the wave of the future if you ask me. It will also get the enviromentalists off our back somewhat and once they can get them down in weight most people won't look back.

What is all this Attack 20, and Challenger stuff on Cat's mountain sleds??

Those are track options. :D

Arctic cat needs to come out with a bigger fourstroker,the turbo 660 is a good sled I have 3000 miles with little other than cosmetic problems.I do beleive they are waiting to see if Yammi sinks or swims with this line up. If sales are anything like they look like they will be,watch out for a ltd. built mid season release by cat to keep the fir balls happy.07 is just around the corner.

Originally posted by sawman@Mar 11 2005, 06:59 PM
Arctic cat needs to come out with a bigger fourstroker,the turbo 660 is a good sled I have 3000 miles with little other than cosmetic problems.I do beleive they are waiting to see if Yammi sinks or swims with this line up. If sales are anything like they look like they will be,watch out for a ltd. built mid season release by cat to keep the fir balls happy.07 is just around the corner.
410276


I don't know... all the hype around arctic cat ( I agree by diehard cat riders) was all for nothing and now there is big dissapointment.. I don't think the midseason sled is going to be any different. another let down for cat riders.

I would say Yammy, only because of the new sleds they put out.
As for four vs two stroke, I willing to put money on two stroke. BRP are making leeps ands bounds with 2 stroke and they havn't even touched high presuure direct injection yet for snowmobiles/ Look at their evinrude 2-tec motor which is as clean or cleaner in many ways than a 4 stroke let alone lack of required maintenance. I hope they bring this tec over to snowmobile lines, would be interesting.

Look at their evinrude 2-tec motor which is as clean or cleaner in many ways than a 4 stroke let alone lack of required maintenance. I hope they bring this tec over to snowmobile lines, would be interesting.

They will as soon as they can get the DI system to operate at revs over 6500rpm. It is just a matter of time before they can doo it. :thumbsup:

As for four vs two stroke, I willing to put money on two stroke. BRP are making leeps ands bounds with 2 stroke and they havn't even touched high presuure direct injection yet for snowmobiles/ Look at their evinrude 2-tec motor which is as clean or cleaner in many ways than a 4 stroke let alone lack of required maintenance. I hope they bring this tec over to snowmobile lines, would be interesting.

Snowrash,

I like this thought alot, never even thought about that. That could keep our loved two-strokes around for a long while. Good comments everyone.

What is the difference between an F7 R EFI vs. F7 EFI??? I'm guessing R must stand for reverse??? Only thing that makes sense.


And does anyone no about this because I thought they hadn't figured out how to rig up reverse with the diamond drive?

Originally posted by spikegary@Mar 11 2005, 02:50 PM
Geez Paul, can't you come up with a better comment than that?* Or are just trying to drive up your PPD rate (posts per day)?* Yammie's just copying doo?* With 4 stroke/EFI?* The Fusion and ICQ?
410227

think what you want. :whistling: because i do. :wink:

Paul,

I'm used to more erudite commentary from you.

Gary

Ski-doo - for best fuel on 2 stroke engines, cleanest 2 stroke.Big power
Yamaha - best 4 stroke for power and durability
Polaris - lots of new fusion models
Cat - still banking on the F-series, poor quality

Only my thoughts, if I were looking to buy.

Originally posted by paul yarek@Mar 11 2005, 10:13 AM
most everything now is a copy of yellow.
410140

For what maybe chassis design to some degree but now even BRP has seen that the REV may be too far rider forward and is moving the rider back some on the RT chassis. Besides one only has to look at the Yamaha Snow Scoot to see where BRP got the idea from. Doo's done far more copying than innovating.

Originally posted by BELL583@Mar 10 2005, 08:17 PM
Who knows, maybe in a couple of years I can pick up a used 2006.* I can still dream though. :D
410010


I wouldn't buy any 2006-2008 sled, new or used. Anytime you have a bunch of new government regulations that effect how something will be manufactured, you have to bet that all 4 manufacturers had to do all kinds of crazy things to meet all those regs and still even come close to turning a profit. It will take at least 2-3 more design cycles to get all the bugs worked out. I got the '06 flyer from ski-doo in the mail, and I have to say, not a whole lot in there impressed me. Sure, I'd ride a 1000 'gade if someone gave me one, but I thought $7500 was a lot to pay for my '02 mxz. What can you get for $7500 now? A fan cooled touring sled? The $14,000 sticker on Yamaha's flagship 4 stroke doesn't impress me either. A few more years will show, '06 will either be remembered as the beginning of the end for muscle sleds, or the beginning of the end of people with average income being able to enjoy the sport, probably both...

:withstupid: i'll wait and see what happens next..........

Originally posted by rampage@Mar 14 2005, 12:08 PM
I wouldn't buy any 2006-2008 sled, new or used.* Anytime you have a bunch of new government regulations that effect how something will be manufactured, you have to bet that all 4 manufacturers had to do all kinds of crazy things to meet all those regs and still even come close to turning a profit.* It will take at least 2-3 more design cycles to get all the bugs worked out.* I got the '06 flyer from ski-doo in the mail, and I have to say, not a whole lot in there impressed me.* Sure, I'd ride a 1000 'gade if someone gave me one, but* I thought $7500 was a lot to pay for my '02 mxz.* What can you get for $7500 now? A fan cooled touring sled?* The $14,000 sticker on Yamaha's flagship 4 stroke doesn't impress me either.* A few more years will show, '06 will either be remembered as the beginning of the end for muscle sleds, or the beginning of the end of people with average income being able to enjoy the sport, probably both...

Thats a big 10-4. I'm broke!
410906

Originally posted by rampage@Mar 14 2005, 12:08 PM
people with average income being able to enjoy the sport, probably both...
410906




Hold on a sec I can afford this sport that’s news to me. :whistling:

ski doo has the most innovative with the new 300cc freestyle, good sled for the money and 90%of their engines are 2006 compliant.

Originally posted by rob7374@Mar 14 2005, 12:33 PM
For what maybe chassis design to some degree but now even BRP has seen that the REV may be too far rider forward and is moving the rider back some on the RT chassis. Besides one only has to look at the Yamaha Snow Scoot to see where BRP got the idea from. Doo's done far more copying than innovating.
410896


Just curious...why do you ride a SKi-Doo????

Rob, you do nothing but complain about BRP and their sleds. I'm sure that you know first hand that Doo had an engineer copy the Sno-scoot or you wouldn't have said so, right? You also say that BRP has recognized that they had the seating too far forward on the REV, hence the RT. Are you sure that's the reason rather than the fact that they wanted to come up with a chassis that was a bit more stable at high speeds and it would better fit the folks that don't like the REV? I think the REV seating is just about perfect. Who are your contacts at Doo? Under your avatar it says that you ride a 600 HO. Did you forget to change it when you got rid of your Doo junk? If Yammie came out with the rider forward seating idea first, why did it take so long for them to market it in a full size sled. I suppose they just wanted Doo to get the jump on them so they could play catch up. :bash:

I have nothing against the other brands. I think that Po has a ways to go yet. Getting rid of FOX completely would be a huge step up. I don't want to rebuild my shocks every 1000 miles as suggested by Fox. The milage of every Fusion that friends have is just terrible. Less than 9 MPG. ( I know of 4 people that are getting this milage) Yamaha has come a long way in just a few years, but so has BRP. When the REV came out, many of you thought it was the most ugly sled that you had ever seen. Now that you are used to it, Yamaha comes out with the same look and design features and it's the greatest thing ever. I have not heard great things about the new suspension either. Make them run in their actual cc class and they are behind!

For this year, I think Yamaha has offered the most to think about. Have they offered up the best sled option? I don't think so.

Originally posted by rampage@Mar 14 2005, 12:08 PM
* A few more years will show, '06 will either be remembered as the beginning of the end for muscle sleds, or the beginning of the end of people with average income being able to enjoy the sport, probably both...
410906


Interesting comment. Can't say I disagree, wife and I went on a 215km journey the other day, $88 in fuel and $30 in food. Although the food aspect won't change, what should change with the new technology is the amount of years you can drive a sled virtually trouble free and the amount of fuel you have to drop into the tank (and perhaps the elimination of 2 stroke oil). It's becoming parrallel to the auto industry, the longer you wait the better the product.
Still stand by my original comments that Yammy are pushing the envelope, but give Kudos to Ski-Doo for the 2 stroke advancements.

Originally posted by rob7374@Mar 14 2005, 11:33 AM
. Besides one only has to look at the Yamaha Snow Scoot to see where BRP got the idea from. Doo's done far more copying than innovating.
410896

i'm sure what you have there is not legal.

Originally posted by spikegary@Mar 13 2005, 06:36 PM
I'm used to more erudite commentary from you.

410743

i like to keep things simple. i can see you digging yourself out. :huh:

Originally posted by paul yarek@Mar 14 2005, 05:36 PM
i like to keep things simple. i can see you digging yourself out.* :huh:
410997


Digging himself out???????????????? Naw Paul, not the case, he was just trying to be passive non-aggresive. When I read the comment I smiled :D

Originally posted by idooski@Mar 14 2005, 01:11 PM
Yamaha comes out with the same look and design features and it's the greatest thing ever. I have not heard great things about the new suspension either. Make them run in their actual cc class and they are behind!
410944


Have you ever watched motocross??? Do you think 250cc 4 strokes run in the same class as 125cc 2 strokes just for the H3LL of it???? 4 strokes need more discplacement than 2 strokes to create the same amount of power. :bash: :bash: :bash:

I don't understand some people at all, I've heard many times, Yamaha's 4 strokes suck, a 700cc 2 stroke is putting out just as much HP as their sleds."

Just think of how much HP 2 strokes put out. A Thundercat has more HP than some cars.

Originally posted by CORY9@Mar 14 2005, 11:02 PM
Digging himself out???????????????? Naw Paul, not the case, he was just trying to be passive non-aggresive. When I read the comment I smiled* :D
411008


yeah, yeah......what he said! :p

Originally posted by snowrash@Mar 14 2005, 05:44 PM

410920


What 2005 sled didn't meet the 06 standards? I think most of them did, so I don't know that you would be buying new off the line technology, but tested technology in new sleds.

Originally posted by shortstop20@Mar 14 2005, 10:40 PM
Have you ever watched motocross???* Do you think 250cc 4 strokes run in the same class as 125cc 2 strokes just for the H3LL of it????* 4 strokes need more discplacement than 2 strokes to create the same amount of power.* :bash:* :bash:* :bash:

I don't understand some people at all, I've heard many times, Yamaha's 4 strokes suck, a 700cc 2 stroke is putting out just as much HP as their sleds."

Just think of how much HP 2 strokes put out.* A Thundercat has more HP than some cars.
411106


Absolutely, you can achieve great horsepower to weight ratio's with a 2 stroke compared to a 4 stroke. And it does take two revolutions of the crankshaft to perform a single power stroke with a 4 cycle. But it's not just about horsepower, fuel economy, emissions and longevity come into play. Yamaha's EFI on their 4 stroke should work extremely well and I imagine a substancial increase in economy over the carbed version, one of the reason's they get my nod this year.

Originally posted by CORY9@Mar 15 2005, 12:45 PM
But it's not just about horsepower, fuel economy, emissions and longevity come into play. 411203


I think it's a big myth that 4 strokes are more durable than 2 strokes. This is only true of gutless, underpowered 4 strokes. Any high performance motor is going to need periodic maintenance, 2 stroke or 4 stroke. The only difference is, with a 4 stroke there's about 4 times as many parts to maintain, so it costs a lot more $$ and takes a lot more time.

4 strokes last forever... that's why everyone in Nascar runs the same motor all season long...

True, some of the 4 stroke sleds out there are underpowered, but you can see the trend changing, look at the Yamaha line-up, look at the T660. Yes every piece of machinery requires maintenace, but can't believe that 2 strokes will last the same as 4 strokes. More moving parts, for sure, but different stresses and most importantly full pressure oiling systems.

I'm gonna chime in and say Yamaha also. I'm also a doo fan, and love the rev chasis and my sdi. But for most of my riding, which is trail riding, yamaha are getting closer to the right thing. They aren't cheap however, and I think the price issue is going to keep them out of the hands of a lot of people who otherwise see the benefits of a 4 stroke.

FishHog

Honestly I'm not real impressed with any of the line ups :confused: . The models that most people can afford really haven't changed all that much and the models everyone are drooling over are quickly becoming too pricey for the average joe. At this point I'm glad I bought an 05, it may be the last sled I get for under $10,000. :blush:

:withstupid:

i'm ski-doo all the way, but after watching the new yamaha dvd i got in my snowtrax mag, all i can say is WOW. does that ever want me to get a new yamaha more than ever.......LOVE the new colour schemes/graphics. Amazing, my vote is definitly yamaha for having the nicest sleds.

Tough call. I love that yamaha has worked hard at the weight issues with the 4's brought out a rider forward design. I like that poo has jumped into the 4's with there version of rider forward. Now the 4 stroke wars might be on. But I can't decide who is in front of the other!! As you can tell I'm a four stroke fan. Not sure what I'm buyin yet. :bash: :bash:

Originally posted by rampage@Mar 15 2005, 02:50 PM
I think it's a big myth that 4 strokes are more durable than 2 strokes.* This is only true of gutless, underpowered 4 strokes.* Any high performance motor is going to need periodic maintenance, 2 stroke or 4 stroke.* The only difference is, with a 4 stroke there's about 4 times as many parts to maintain, so it costs a lot more $$ and takes a lot more time.

4 strokes last forever... that's why everyone in Nascar runs the same motor all season long...
411216

It's not a myth! Anyone who knows anything about motors will tell you that a 4 stroke will outlast a 2 stroke by far. When is the last time you heard of somebody rebuilding the motor in their sport bike after 10000 km? Some of these sport bikes are putting out 180 hp/litre of displacement! By comparison, the skidoo 600 sdi is putting out about 200 hp/litre. That's awfully close in hp/litre. That's not gutless or underpowered. And guys are getting over 100000 kms on these bikes. As far as 4 strokes having "4 times as many parts to maintain", when is the last time you did some maintenance on a four stroke snowmobile engine? Or for that matter, on your car? Besides changing the oil and putting gas in it , what have you done to your 4 stroke car that wouldn't have to be done on a 2 stroke? Maybe a tune up every 100000 kms or so. Lets see that's about 5 - 10 rebuilds on a 2 stroke depending on how you drive the 2 stroke. I don't know what Arctic Cat's maint schedule is like but for the Yamaha, the oil change intervals are somewhere between 3000-5000 km. The cost of the oil change is far far less than the cost of the 2 stroke oil required to travel that many kms. Other than oil changes, the next scheduled maint is to have the valves adjusted at 40000 kms. Once again that is 2-4 rebuilds of the average 2 stroke. When is the last time you heard of someone burning up a piston on a 4 stroke because of a lean situation? 4 strokes are far less likely to have this problem. As far as nascar rebuilding all the time they have to for various reasons. They are putting out some serious horsepower and running those engines WOT for 500 miles. There is also hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake every race. If you put your 2 stroke motor in your sled through that type of stress, you would be rebuilding it after 500 miles also. There was an interesting article in one of the snowmobile magazines (I think Snowtech or Snowgoer) about the Yamahas that are dominating all the endurance races. The teams are just changing the oil after every race. That's it, no rebuilds for the whole season! To me it seems far easier and less expensive to maintain the 4 stroke than the 2 stroke. I'm sure that if you were to add up all the operating costs, including maintenance to drive 20000 kms on a 4 stroke and a 2 stroke, the difference would be significant, not to mention you wouldn't smell like you do after riding a 2 stroke.

Originally posted by Homer2002@Mar 16 2005, 07:52 AM
It's not a myth! Anyone who knows anything about motors will tell you that a 4 stroke will outlast a 2 stroke by far.* When is the last time you heard of somebody rebuilding the motor in their sport bike after 10000 km? Some of these sport bikes are putting out 180 hp/litre of displacement! By comparison, the skidoo 600 sdi is putting out about 200 hp/litre. That's awfully close in hp/litre. That's not gutless or underpowered. And guys are getting over 100000 kms on these bikes. As far as 4 strokes having "4 times as many parts to maintain", when is the last time you did some maintenance on a four stroke snowmobile engine? Or for that matter, on your car? Besides changing the oil and putting gas in it , what have you done to your 4 stroke car that wouldn't have to be done on a 2 stroke? Maybe a tune up every 100000 kms or so. Lets see that's about 5 - 10 rebuilds on a 2 stroke depending on how you drive the 2 stroke. I don't know what Arctic Cat's maint schedule is like but for the Yamaha, the oil change intervals are somewhere between 3000-5000 km. The cost of the oil change is far far less than the cost of the* 2 stroke oil required to travel that many kms. Other than oil changes, the next scheduled maint is to have the valves adjusted at 40000 kms. Once again that is 2-4 rebuilds of the average 2 stroke. When is the last time you heard of someone burning up a piston on a 4 stroke because of a lean situation? 4 strokes are far less likely to have this problem. As far as nascar rebuilding all the time they have to for various reasons.* They are putting out some serious horsepower and running those engines* WOT for 500 miles. There is also hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake every race. If you put your 2 stroke motor in your sled through that type of stress, you would be rebuilding it after 500 miles also.* There was an interesting article in one of the snowmobile magazines (I think Snowtech or Snowgoer) about the Yamahas that are dominating all the endurance races. The teams are just changing the oil after every race. That's it, no rebuilds for the whole season! To me it seems far easier and less expensive to maintain the 4 stroke than the 2 stroke. I'm sure that if you were to add up all the operating costs, including maintenance to drive 20000 kms on a 4 stroke and a 2 stroke, the difference would be significant, not to mention you wouldn't smell like you do after riding a 2 stroke.
411370


I helped a friend to rebuild a 400 Yamaha dirt bike (basically the same motor as the 426 and 450, a 5 valve single cylinder.) The pistons are about 2" tall (or less) which means as soon as the piston gets out of spec just a little, the corners of the skirts start to leave huge grooves down the sides of the cylinder. (the piston is not as tall, so once it's out of spec, it 'wobbles' back and forth in the bore, causing a lot more wear than a 'normal' height piston.) To me this means new pistons a needed every year or so, just like a 2 stroke dirt bike.
Look at the RX1 motor, 4 holes, 5 valves per hole, that's 20 valves, 20 springs and 40 (almost microscopic) valve spring retainer clips. There's probably more moving parts just in the head of an RX1 motor than their is in my whole motor.

To compare a sled motor to a street bike motor is not a good comparison. Unless you're paying for track time, most street bike riders do not hold their bikes WOT for extended periods of time because they would either end up dead or in jail. Another reason you can't compare them is most people don't jump their street bikes or ride them through 'whoops', which significantly accelerates wear on everything, including engine components. Dirt bikes and snowmobiles do get held WOT for extended periods of time, and people do get air and ride through bumps on them. If these 4 stroke motors are so great, then how come none of the RX1s seem to hold their value once they get a few miles on them? I see many used RX1s for sale with less than 1000 miles on them selling in the $5000 range. Aren't they over $10000 new?

The current 4 stroke sleds that are available all weigh about 100 lbs more than their 2 stroke counterparts, so I would agree that some of those might last slightly longer than a 2 stroke, but once they make 4 stroke sleds that are weight competitive (which will be done by lightening up a bunch of parts in the motor,) then the durability will go out the window, just like it did on dirt bikes. I would agree that a bike like a Honda XR 600 4 stroke does last almost 'forever', but it's a heavy underpowered (compared to a 500 cc 2 stroke) pig. The longevity on the 'next generation' 4 stroke dirt bike motors (Honda, Yamaha, KTM, 450s) is not much more than a 2 stroke, and in many cases I've seen it be less. The honda 4 stroke motors had problems eating valves, and the others have had different issues as well.

You should be looking at H.P. per pound numbers instead of H.P. per litre numbers, that's what really counts...

When's the last time you've done any engine work on any motor? Oil changes don't count... I'm basing my opinions on real-world experience, not something I read in a magazine...

w00t WOW ........talk about a tech lesson.. :thumbsup: SWRules

Originally posted by CORY9@Mar 15 2005, 12:09 PM
True, some of the 4 stroke sleds out there are underpowered, but you can see the trend changing, look at the Yamaha line-up, look at the T660. Yes every piece of machinery requires maintenace, but can't believe that 2 strokes will last the same as 4 strokes. More moving parts, for sure, but different stresses and most importantly full pressure oiling systems.
411220

Hey cory those HI-PERF four stroke MX bikes that have twice the CCs and are competitive need similar maintenence and you rebuild them atleast as often as theyre 2-stroke competitors and they cost like half again as much as the 2-strokers. Im just poinjting that out. :cussing: :D :thumbsup: :sly: :tongue: :slick:

Originally posted by Andy Dragon@Mar 16 2005, 08:38 AM
I'm going with rampage on this one.* Why?* I have three 4-stroke dirt bikes, one 2-stroke and one 600cc class sportbike.

Anyone running 100,000km on a sportbike without regularly ripping it down to do valve adjustment and piston replacement is just itching for a blown motor.* Do you need to do it after 10,000km?* No, but the application is considerably different.* There is so much less load on a road-bike.

On to the dirt bikes.* If you don't replace the 4-stroke pistons at every other maintainence interval (and adjust the valves at every interval) when the 2-stroke top-end is done, you are asking for trouble.* The engine on a 4-stroke dirtbike is much closer to what we are talking about.* It has load requirements that match snowmobiles much closer than a sport-bike (or any other motorcycle).

However, once you've done the valves and top-end a couple of times, I really don't feel that they are all that much harder.* Sure it takes a few more minutes because there are more parts to tear down and check, but it's simple once you've got the motions down pat.

This is one of the biggest myths out there as rampage stated.* That you buy a high-performance, high-load 4-stroke like a snowmobile/dirtbike and never need to maintain the top-end like a 2-stroke.* Sure it might take 20,000km or more like 15,000km for a 4-stroke sled, but it will happen.* Thinking it will go 100,000km is just stupid.

Sport bikes and Honda XR's are the 4-strokes most people think of...but sport-bikes don't have the same load requirements and the XR's are not the high-performance engines that the current crop of 4-stroke monsters...the 450's...are.

You think this is just BS?* Take a peek on www.thumpertalk.com at the forums for each of the high-performance 4-strokes and you will see how much regular maintainence these machines need.
411404

Your dead right andy. :thumbsup: :cool: :D :!: !!! :) :withstupid: SWRules

Originally posted by rampage@Mar 16 2005, 10:03 AM
I helped a friend to rebuild a 400 Yamaha dirt bike (basically the same motor as the 426 and 450, a 5 valve single cylinder.)* The pistons are about 2" tall (or less) which means as soon as the piston gets out of spec just a little, the corners of the skirts start to leave huge grooves down the sides of the cylinder.* (the piston is not as tall, so once it's out of spec, it 'wobbles' back and forth in the bore, causing a lot more wear than a 'normal' height piston.)* To me this means new pistons a needed every year or so, just like a 2 stroke dirt bike.*
Look at the RX1 motor, 4 holes, 5 valves per hole, that's 20 valves, 20 springs and 40 (almost microscopic) valve spring retainer clips.* There's probably more moving parts just in the head of an RX1 motor than their is in my whole motor.*

To compare a sled motor to a street bike motor is not a good comparison.* Unless you're paying for track time, most street bike riders do not hold their bikes WOT for extended periods of time because they would either end up dead or in jail.* Another reason you can't compare them is most people don't jump their street bikes or ride them through 'whoops', which significantly accelerates wear on everything, including engine components.* Dirt bikes and snowmobiles do get held WOT for extended periods of time, and people do get air and ride through bumps on them.* If these 4 stroke motors are so great, then how come none of the RX1s seem to hold their value once they get a few miles on them?* I see many used RX1s for sale with less than 1000 miles on them selling in the $5000 range.* Aren't they over $10000 new?*

The current 4 stroke sleds that are available all weigh about 100 lbs more than their 2 stroke counterparts, so I would agree that some of those might last slightly longer than a 2 stroke, but once they make 4 stroke sleds that are weight competitive (which will be done by lightening up a bunch of parts in the motor,) then the durability will go out the window, just like it did on dirt bikes.* I would agree that a bike like a Honda XR 600 4 stroke does last almost 'forever', but it's a heavy underpowered (compared to a 500 cc 2 stroke) pig.* The longevity on the 'next generation' 4 stroke dirt bike motors (Honda, Yamaha, KTM,* 450s) is not much more than a 2 stroke, and in many cases I've seen it be less.* The honda 4 stroke motors had problems eating valves, and the others have had different issues as well.*

You should be looking at H.P. per pound numbers instead of H.P. per litre numbers, that's what really counts...*

When's the last time you've done any engine work on any motor?* Oil changes don't count...* I'm basing my opinions on real-world experience, not something I read in a magazine...
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H.P. per pound means very little when it comes to sleds. When you are talking a 100 lb difference in sled weight. Lets see 120 hp MXZ/500 lbs = .24 hp per lb. 140 hp Rx-1 /600 lbs =.233 hp per pound, or lets say the Rx-1 weighs 650 lbs, that is .215 hp per pound. The difference is minimal. Maybe you calculator doesn't work. Apparently not or you wouldn't have made that statement about hp per pound.
To compare it to a 4 stroke dirtbike doesn't make much sense. As you stated, a dirtbike sees a lot of wot time. A sled doesn't see alot. I can't imagine doing 100 + mph all day through the trails. Trail riding an RX-1 will mean the engine will generally run in the 7500 - 8500 rpm range, with short wot bursts seeing 10200 rpm. the redline of that motor is somewher in the 13000-15000 range. This motor hardly works up a sweat .Plus the dirt bike sees hotter temps and more dirt and other contaminates. Rx-1 also has 4 cylinders not 1, far less wear and tear per cylinder. Like I said, the guys who are dominating the endurance races with the RX-1's aren't rebuilding their motors and I'm sure they see lots of wot time. That's real world proof there. If there was a need to rebuild, they would do it, their not paying for the parts. And the resale value of the RX-1's has nothing to do with the mileage on the engine. Are you also an expert on quantifying the factors that affect the depreciation of a 4 stroke snowmobile? RX-1's have had weight and handling issues. This has affected their resale for sure. People just aren't crazy about them, so the resale values aren't that good. How much was a 2003 REV with the beavertail worth after the 2004 came out without the beavertail? They were worthless. Have you ever owned an RX-1? Have you driven one? Have you maintained one? I have done all the above. Do you know anyone who has had engine trouble with one? I'm sure somebody has but I haven't heard of anybody yet, and there are a lot of RX-1 owners on this website. This websites pages are riddled with people with 2 stroke failures. Everyone has had failure of a 2 stroke or knows someone who has. As far as lighter four strokes in the future not being as durable that may be true but I don't think this thread ever questioned the future 4 strokes. I think we are talking about now. Everything you have bashed so far has been 2003 -2006. So far there are little if any engine issues with Yamaha 4 strokes. Until they start failing how can you possibly say they don't last? That doesn't make any sense. History will tell the truth, and so far 4 strokes have history on their side.
As far as the last time I've done any engine work, it doesn't happen often, I've only owned Yamahas. Although I did rebuild my friend's 700 triple(Yamaha 15000 km) about 5 weeks ago and I will be doing another friend's 500 twin (skidoo 3000 km) next week. There are some very.good reasons that sport bikes have 4 stroke motors. Some of them are reliability, torque, longevity, sound level. If 2 strokes were better, don't you think the manufacturers would be using them. I don't have the numbers but I'm sure that bike outsell sleds in the world by at least 50 to 1 and it may even be 100 or 200 to 1. Nobody doubts that 2 strokes are incredibly fast and powerful for their respective displacement, but the bottom line is they stink and they just don't last as long. The 4 strokes aren't for everybody, just like 2 strokes aren't for everybody. There are far too many people bashing 4 strokes who have never owned one! I owned 2 strokes and I am not bashing them. I just recognize their limitations.

arctic cat becasue it just started making nascar sleds, as in other nascar driver graphics on sleds, give it time it will happen

Let's try to get back to the topic guys.

Originally posted by Homer2002@Mar 16 2005, 09:06 PM
RX-1's have had weight and handling issues. This has affected their resale for sure. People just aren't crazy about them, so the resale values aren't that good. 411590


I rest my case...

As for resale value on the RX-1, I believe that the prices of the leftover sleds in boxes has really hurt the resale of the used RX-1. There was alot of leftover 03's and 04's. In the fall I seen a dealer at the snowmobile show selling new 04 RX-1's without reverse going for $9000 Canadian!!. That sled stickered for $13000!! :dazed: .

Sure the lame rear suspension on the RX-1 mabee kept the resale down a bit, but the new left-over stock is being blow-out the door at huge savings.

Bet you will see alot of new 05 RX-1's and Vectors for basically the price that people would be seeking for their used RX-1 with miles on it and no warranty. Makes it tuff to sell a used sled when there is so many new left-overs at the dealers.

At least that's the way it is up here in Ontario anyway.

Originally posted by rampage@Mar 16 2005, 02:03 PM
I helped a friend to rebuild a 400 Yamaha dirt bike (basically the same motor as the 426 and 450, a 5 valve single cylinder.)* The pistons are about 2" tall (or less) which means as soon as the piston gets out of spec just a little, the corners of the skirts start to leave huge grooves down the sides of the cylinder.* (the piston is not as tall, so once it's out of spec, it 'wobbles' back and forth in the bore, causing a lot more wear than a 'normal' height piston.)* To me this means new pistons a needed every year or so, just like a 2 stroke dirt bike.*
Look at the RX1 motor, 4 holes, 5 valves per hole, that's 20 valves, 20 springs and 40 (almost microscopic) valve spring retainer clips.* There's probably more moving parts just in the head of an RX1 motor than their is in my whole motor.*

To compare a sled motor to a street bike motor is not a good comparison.* Unless you're paying for track time, most street bike riders do not hold their bikes WOT for extended periods of time because they would either end up dead or in jail.* Another reason you can't compare them is most people don't jump their street bikes or ride them through 'whoops', which significantly accelerates wear on everything, including engine components.* Dirt bikes and snowmobiles do get held WOT for extended periods of time, and people do get air and ride through bumps on them.* If these 4 stroke motors are so great, then how come none of the RX1s seem to hold their value once they get a few miles on them?* I see many used RX1s for sale with less than 1000 miles on them selling in the $5000 range.* Aren't they over $10000 new?*

The current 4 stroke sleds that are available all weigh about 100 lbs more than their 2 stroke counterparts, so I would agree that some of those might last slightly longer than a 2 stroke, but once they make 4 stroke sleds that are weight competitive (which will be done by lightening up a bunch of parts in the motor,) then the durability will go out the window, just like it did on dirt bikes.* I would agree that a bike like a Honda XR 600 4 stroke does last almost 'forever', but it's a heavy underpowered (compared to a 500 cc 2 stroke) pig.* The longevity on the 'next generation' 4 stroke dirt bike motors (Honda, Yamaha, KTM,* 450s) is not much more than a 2 stroke, and in many cases I've seen it be less.* The honda 4 stroke motors had problems eating valves, and the others have had different issues as well.*

You should be looking at H.P. per pound numbers instead of H.P. per litre numbers, that's what really counts...*

When's the last time you've done any engine work on any motor?* Oil changes don't count...* I'm basing my opinions on real-world experience, not something I read in a magazine...
411384


Let's see I checked the oil and filled the gas tank. Does that count? Thus endeth the lesson.

Well ... I might be crazy , but my personal opinion . I don't like any of the new line of sled styles coming out . There is too many potential problem for expensive damage , if your in a minor mishap . It use to be if you tagged a tree , you replaced the front bumper , pipe , and hood. Now when you look under the hoods , front loaded carbs, rads , and so on . The same hit is gonna result in the repalcement of the whole sled. It will end up costing you less to write the machine off . :) I have to give my vote to Polaris , only because they are staying with the Edge X style with there 500's . From what I've heard . Just my personal opinion.

Don't hit trees, problem solved. JK...

Honestly, I've already placed my vote for Yamaha, but Polaris is heading the right direction, too. Fusion chassis/600&700 motors/m-10 susp in a 128 inch ripsaw track....that's a heckuva package right there. If only their motors were truly clean and efficient like Yamahas I'd be all over 'em. The days of old-schooler carbed 2 strokes are numbered, and I'll be glad to see them fade away into history.

I think (hope) that Doo will do something bigger for 07, looking forward to it.

Hi guys,

New to forum but I just wanna say that those who are bashing yammi's 4 stroke for weight should know that when I went to show and saw several put on large scale.... well....yammi apex with 2 gallons gas weighed roughly 553lbs. This sled is puttin out 150 horsies so I think yammi is really doing everything they can to win the weight battle. Also, How many other sled manufacturers are selling sleds with titanium head pipes. Things like this might have something to do with higher selling price.

Yamaha for sure. Just look at the line up for 2006.

I am personally very pleased to see high end shocks and suspension on some of the new models such as the fox floats and GYT-R shocks, just for example.

Yeah I think this one is hands down yamaha

I'm a doo rider, but I'd have to say Yamaha. The Apex is awesome.

SWRules YAMAHA!! !! !! They have most def. made the biggest impact in their lineup this year it ROCKS!! Anyone heard of the Apex?? lol ofcourse you have that is all she wrote!! !! !! lol SWRules

Yamaha's new line up is very nice but early reports state that the rear skid still only performs well on smooth groomed trails. Yamaha is very close to taking a giant chunk of the sled market with their 4 stroke lineup, the only thing holding them back is a skid that will take the moguls. :thumbsup:

For what maybe chassis design to some degree but now even BRP has seen that the REV may be too far rider forward and is moving the rider back some on the RT chassis. Besides one only has to look at the Yamaha Snow Scoot to see where BRP got the idea from. Doo's done far more copying than innovating.
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Thank you for giving me a good laugh on this Monday night :lmao: .

The only reason Ski-Doo built the RT is to facilitate the larger 1000cc and accomodate a more "lake runner" riding position.

Secondly, to say Ski-Doo is not innovation, is simply wrong.

Ski-Doo innovations- (chime in if I forgot any)

-uhh, the snowmobile
-rer
-dess
-rev*
-sdi/ptek **

*Marks the beginning of a new chassis design that will be looked at as the standard in performance and comfort.
**The production of a clean two-stroke engine concept tht allows riders to have a sled that is fuel effiecient and clean (meets 2006-2009 EPA) yet does not carry the bulk of a four-stroke.

Thank you for giving me a good laugh on this Monday night :lmao: .

The only reason Ski-Doo built the RT is to facilitate the larger 1000cc and accomodate a more "lake runner" riding position.

Secondly, to say Ski-Doo is not innovation, is simply wrong.

Ski-Doo innovations- (chime in if I forgot any)

-uhh, the snowmobile
-rer
-dess
-rev*
-sdi/ptek **

*Marks the beginning of a new chassis design that will be looked at as the standard in performance and comfort.
**The production of a clean two-stroke engine concept tht allows riders to have a sled that is fuel effiecient and clean (meets 2006-2009 EPA) yet does not carry the bulk of a four-stroke.
[/b]


Well, actually they are Bombardier inventions.
and if you really want to get technical the rer is a Rotax invention.
Just being difficult. :bash:

IMHO with out being bias, it would have to beeeeeeeee; Yamapooski......

No, no thats not right. Um Yamaskipoop.

Nope, we still need to change the kitty litter.

I got it. Skatiyamapoop....... Yes, that will work nicely.

Translation; Skati-yama-poop...... The residual effect from too many hot wings and brewski's the night before leaving on your snowmobile trip.

Noun- stopping trail side too remedy that problem and the "suicide hot sauce" really lives up to it's name, while the bear looks at you and say's "Do I use your bathroom"?

Snowmobiling!!!!!!!! You gotta love it...............



Am I glad we cleared that up

Have you ever watched motocross??? Do you think 250cc 4 strokes run in the same class as 125cc 2 strokes just for the H3LL of it???? 4 strokes need more discplacement than 2 strokes to create the same amount of power. :bash: :bash: :bash:

I don't understand some people at all, I've heard many times, Yamaha's 4 strokes suck, a 700cc 2 stroke is putting out just as much HP as their sleds."

Just think of how much HP 2 strokes put out. A Thundercat has more HP than some cars.
[/b]
Finally, sombody who understands this concept! THANKYOU!!

The longevity on the 'next generation' 4 stroke dirt bike motors (Honda, Yamaha, KTM, 450s) is not much more than a 2 stroke, and in many cases I've seen it be less. [/b]
Hmmm, I can honestly say that this is not true. For three years I have owned a YZ 426 and a KX 250 and the 426 takes the cake for durability and longevity. This is the reason I bought an 06 Nytro. This is gonna be one fun sled!

I voted yamaha with doo a very close second. When you really have a good look at the apex from the inside out you can see the value in that sled, not just the way the sled is put togather, but the conponents used, the cost seems in line with the product. If/when cat comes out with there BIG 4 stroker, would I trust it being a first year build? NO WAY!!!.

I agree that Yammy is the most inventive lineup this year. As longas they have addressed the Mono SHock issues.

But IMO the best overall single sled would be the Crossfire. Great engine, and the most versitile chassis in the buissnes right now. You can ride, rider forward, standing, sitting, legs out, big bump, and still clip 115+ across the lake. While nothing on it is new, the Crossfire is a bringing together of the best trail engine is sledding right now, with the best off-trail chassis right now.

Without playing manufacturer favorites, who has produced the best lineup for 2006 that will create the largest impact on snowmobiling. Even though I am a Ski-doo fan my vote goes to Yamaha. They are really pushing the four stroke market which is what I like to see.
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Just look what you started. I love all the passionate discussion!

I won't comment here, because it's all been said.

I just want to ride!

Me

Wow look at the votes holly smokes :tongue:

Rick :lmao: :lmao:

I think Yanaha is on the cutting edge of the four-stroke market but being in a world of economics I gave Polaris my vote. They still provide an affordable line-up with performance and a quality ride keeping the sport going for people who have a limited budget to work from. SWRules