Michigan law [Archive] - Snowmobile World : Your #1 Snowmobile Forum

ZMachMan

08-29-2002, 08:11 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (dave583 @ Aug. 29, 2002, 3:50pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its about time. I never understood why anybody would want to have to listen to a loud pipe all day. On the racing cicuit thats fine. But all you jags who run down the trail screaming bloody murder are going to ruin this sport for all of us who respect the property owners who are kind enough to let us ride on their land. Why do you think more and more trail closures are happening. Loud pipes are the main reason. So keep it up ###holes and we'll all be sitting home in the winter.[/b][/quote]
Dave583 with your 3 Posts,

A newbie on the board already calling folks ###HOLES? * Who are you to judge? * Are you greater than thou? *Let me tell you what, *I don't post often, *but I do post when there is a need, *and man, *do I see a need. * Are you telling me, *that we shouldn't be allowed to run the pipes of our choice? * That we should let the Government tell us what pipes to use. *Maybe you think they should tell us what Brand Sled, *What Trails, *and the days of the week we can ride also?

If you like Quiet Pipes, *More power (or less power) to you. *But If we like Crank Shop Pipes, *Shouldn't we be able to use them. * *Or if we do use them, *then do we have to be called *###HOLES by some newbie?

How would you like it, *if we said your a DICK for liking Quiet Pipes? * Would you like it? * *THIS IS AMERICA AND IT'S ALL ABOUT FREEDOM OF CHOICE. * * LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!! *My Choice is CrankShop. * 5 of my sleds wear them. * Also, *My American Made V-Twin bike, *wears Straight Drag Pipes without baffles. *Would you like to Hack on my Bike Also. * *

Please Tell me.......
ZMACHMAN.......

Last edited by phazerhater at Aug. 30, 2002, 7:14pm

Mighty RX-1

08-29-2002, 08:37 PM

Forget what words the newbie chose to use and look at what he was actually saying. *I agree 100%, loud pipes are killing this sport! *My buddy and I will go up to his parents cabin a couple times per year. *They are surrounded by public trails that must go thru their private property to connect. *You can hear some sleds for litterally miles. *Both coming and going. *It's really pathetic! *His parents are strongly considering revoking sledders rights to use their property. *This would be amajor problem and possibly end sledding in that area. There is nowhere else to route the trails. I can't say I blame them. *You should hear these sleds fly by at all hours of the night.

ZMachMan

08-29-2002, 08:49 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Aug. 29, 2002, 9:37pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Forget what words the newbie chose to use and look at what he was actually saying. *I agree 100%, loud pipes are killing this sport! *My buddy and I will go up to his parents cabin a couple times per year. *They are surrounded by public trails that must go thru their private propoerty to connect. *You can hear some sleds for litterally miles. *Both coming and going. *It's really pathetic! *His parents are strongly considering revoking sledders rights to use their property. *I can't say I blame them. *You should hear these sleds fly by at all hours of the night.[/b][/quote]
You and your buddy goes up to his parents cabin, * a couple of times a year. * So does that mean you have to listen to sleds maybe 6 or 8 nights a year? * Would that be correct to say? * Well, * I Live on the Trail, *Year Around, *60' off the trail. * *So I have the opportunity to hear Loud Pipes a few more times a year than you do. * *Now, *if anybody has a right to bitch about loud pipes, *I would think I would qualify, *but I don't. *Do you know why? * Because if we let the Gov't start with the regulating of Loud Pipes, *then they will have their foot in the door and what will be next? * If you want your sport ruined guys, *start siding with the tree huggers. * * * Do you guys believe in Gun Control Also?

ZMachMan.....

dooman

08-29-2002, 08:52 PM

gun control yes,putting the second bullet in the same hole the first made.

jwheeler

08-29-2002, 09:02 PM

http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif Zmachman you are the man and its nice to see you around, i just noticed that dave guys post and he IS being a #### head, so all of us here with pipes and loud silencers are A holes so he says, and we are ruining sledding for everyone else??? What?? He is probably just some contrary old fart who hates any noise at all.
I mean i know some sleds are really loud but its part of the sport as far as im concerned, guys like us who like to tinker with cars, trucks, bikes, boats and sleds like to here the growl of their engines when they crack them and me personally would have to get alot of tickets before i would put stock exaust back on my stuff. I have 3" dual exaust on my trans am with dynoflow mufflers and it roars, and i have a FMF Fatty pipe on my CR and it screams, I have B&B can on my MXZ and its loud as heck, and even took the baffle out of the pipe on my 400 EX and it really screams. *
Yes i doo take it easy on other peoples property when riding, out of common Curtesy for people who may not want to hear it, but alot of those people still complain, and they will even complain about stock pipes but these people in alot of cases are just too childish for their own good and have nothing better to do than ruin other peoples fun, and it really ticks me off somtimes on how snowmobilers are zeroed in on as being the bad guys. *and like the machman said why shouldent we be allowed to use what we want if its there to buy and use on our toys. *So to you dave i will just laugh as i do at other people like youself and keep doing what it is im doin untill they outlaw it and give the death penalty for using loud pipes.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES * BRAAAAAP!!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

Last edited by phazerhater at Aug. 30, 2002, 7:15pm

alscool

08-29-2002, 09:07 PM

its getting pretty loud in here http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

jwheeler

08-29-2002, 09:12 PM

we are just stating a case and blowing off a little steam, but im done now, i had my say. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LakeEffectSledhead

08-29-2002, 09:33 PM

Ask any trooper in Michigan who has more power, *State Trooper or DNR officer? *Yep, DNR. *I don't agree with their power wielding force, but I do agree with the noise level monitoring. *The "silencers" don't add enough power to make a bit of difference that you can feel, and most property owners only complain about the noise from sleds, some trespassing, but mostly noise. *I know I would like to have shot a sledhead or two for waking my family "braapping" on the throttle at 3 am in the Gaylord Holiday Inn parking lot.

On private property outside of town, you can have it as loud as you want.

Sled Dogg

08-29-2002, 10:00 PM

Hey ZmachMan,
I hope my pipes won't be to LOUD when they come in!LOL at some people. I would like a reasonable limit law though as there are some pipes on street bikes and sleds that are just absulutly way to dam loud. And there usually not on fast sleds but some guy that just wanted some pipes and got stupid. *We all know that you can have hi performing pipes and have them sound great but not ubnoxiouse sounding as some are. *It'll be interesting to see where the state takes this. When you can hear a machine 4 miles away there is something wrong.
Caleb

ZMachMan

08-29-2002, 10:09 PM

I live 20 minutes from Gaylord. (I live here all year long, *I am a local) * *So I know the Holiday Inn you are talking about. * And I understand Loud Pipes, *So let me share a story with you.

I am the head of a Motorcycle Club, * in which we have almost 600 members. * So, *I go to Daytona Bike Week, * Myrtle Beach Bike Week, *and Several bike weeks every year. * * Believe me, *when I say I hear loud pipes, *not only on sleds all winter, * but bikes all summer. * *When staying at motels at bike week, *do you know how many loud bikes wake us up every night!
We don't whine about it. * We know it's part of the game. * *Get used to it, *it's part of the Scheme of things. * If loud pipes *bothers you so much, *that you would want to shoot someone in the parking lot of the Holiday Inn in Gaylord, *then I would suggest you might want to find a quieter Sport, *or at least don't stay at Snowmobile Motels. * This is Snowmobiling guys. * It's just part of the deal.

Not to be a Smart###, *but we have a saying here where I live and this is the truth:

"We don't mind Snowmobilers invading our towns every weekend *by the thousands, * just don't try to change the way we live!" * *How would you like it if the shoe was on the foot and we came to your hometown by the Thousands? *Something to think about......

You see, *life is give and take, * not all take....

ZMachMan

Last edited by phazerhater at Aug. 30, 2002, 7:11pm

Mighty RX-1

08-29-2002, 10:53 PM

You're comparing apples to oranges! *Bike week is just that, bike week. *Not every weekend as in snowmobiling come winter time. *What I left out in my post was that his parents have to put up with that sh*t every weekend. * I also didn't mean to imply that it bothered me the few times we are there but I feel for the people that live there.

I like loud stuff too, you should here my 68 vette with a chambered exaust, it'll give you a woody! *The sound of a big Block, Oh My GOD! But I'm not driving it at 3 in the morning. *

Have you ever noticed how the noise travels so much farther in winter especially at night?

Machzzzz1

08-29-2002, 11:02 PM

Some people are just plain out cry babies. *Yes loud pipes can sometimes be annoying but you get used to it, my buddy has a house right on the trail. *You bairly hear anything when they drive by and it only lasts for a few seconds. *You would have to be listening for it to hear it. *Or your house is made of toilet paper.

Secondly its only for 4 months and mostly only on the weekends. *During the week theres a few but nothing to write home about, *People dont seem to realize that a lot of there favorite resturants, stores, and gas stations are only in buissness because of the sledders income in the winter. *So i think they should show a little more patience and respect for us. *

And lastly i Agree with ZMACHMAN's comment about this being a free country, the fact is that both USA and Canada are far from free. *The goverment and lobbiest like to control everything. *When i started that whole topic in the yamaha forum about the rx-1 and me being scared about what it would do to the industry i was talking about exactly this. *WHen they get there foot in the door they never leave and just suck all the fun out of everything. *Gun Control is a perfect example, *Its pretty much useless in stopping criminals its only there to annoy real hunters and aimed at eventually all of us losing the right to bare arms for hunting. *Its the lobbiest that wanted the 4 stroke sled engines. *THey didnt really want it, they just thought that a racing 4 stroke couldnt be made and thought we would give up the sport because they think were all about going brakeneck speeds and scaring animals. now they got there foot in the door and will want somthing else like catilytic converters and EGR valves. *

Seriously We should be able to put on our sled what we want and we should stop giving these stupid uneducated lobbiest the time of day or even a meaning of exsiting. *PISS ON THEM.

And mighty RX-1 I understand where your comming from but when your inside the cabin with the doors closed (winter) is it really much louder. *Yes pipes are louder but i would argu that there not much louder. *Anybody got a decible reading?

Mighty RX-1

08-29-2002, 11:09 PM

Freedom? *You guys are stoned! *Since when should we have the right to inconvience others? *It's only 4 months out of the year, that's bullsh*t too. *4 months is 4 months.

Don't compare this to gun control. *You can't tell when I'm packing, but you sure could hear my 97 mach Z! *This isn't about the goverment controlling us either.

You guys better wake up real quick here before it's too late! *I have been there, I had some real screaming pipes on my 97 and I was always catching grief from people. *It got to the point that my buddies were on my case because people were jawing at them too.

Yea right, wer're gonna stop sledding if we have to quiet them down, get real!

Wake up people!!!!!

Machzzzz1

08-29-2002, 11:24 PM

Mighty 4 months is exactly that 4 months. *And its not like your beside a highway at night your will probably hear a sled once every 10 -20 miniutes and how many of them will have aftermarket exhausts. *I agree with not over doing it and keeping a sled as quite as possible, but i dont agree with goverment telling us not to.

When you think about it how much louder is a aftermarket pipe. *My MachZ with stock pipes will send a roar across the lake that will almost shatter glass and same on a trail, any stock sled can be heard miles in advance. *I also belive that aftermarket pipes are not much louder they just sound much more agressive. *

And I wonder how the RX-1 will sound when some company comes out with a GINO exhaust can sticking up and right out the back rather then aimed at the ground like traditional sleds. *I think a R1 4 stroke with a exhaust reving 10000rpm could create a little stir. *I heard a stock RX-1 rev up to 10000grand at the pocono nascar race and if that doesnt bother people i dont know what will. *THe fact is that it doesnt mean its a bad machine. *Thats just the noise it makes and i belive that nobody should worry about it.

I live in the city and everymorning i got to listen and watch 3000kids walk right by my house going to highschool. *Watch them throw crap on my driveway, they talk and scream so loud that it does wake me up. *But im not going to start a picket line for them to quiet down. *I would give money to hear a nicely piped Mach drive by 5 times a min compaired to the kids.

Your telling us to wake up. *Well belive me, quieting down our sleds will not make or break our sledding future, The same lobbiest and goverment responcible for gun control will be. *Eventually when they get fed up they will just raise trail passes, or insurance cost or put impossable emmition levels and just knock us of our sleds. *Look at all the success the hunters are having getting gun control back in check. *It will never happen because uneducated city people that shiver at the mention of the word gun just want them gone. *

When these same people here the word sled all they think about is the fuel were waisting, the polution were making, and the animals were killing or scaring and we will be brought down unless were really carefull. *Noise and pipes have nothing to do with it.

ZMachMan

08-30-2002, 05:28 AM

MightyRX1,

You say and I quote, " *I had some real screaming pipes on my 97 and I was always catching grief from people. " * Is that really what you wrote?

I have CrankShop Pipes on 5 of my sleds. *Since 1997, *do you know how many complaints I have had in 5 years? *Zero, *Zip, *Nada. * *The reason is, *Is that I have RESPECT for others, * if you were catching Grief from People, * Maybe it is because you have no Respect for others and didn't know when to get out of the throttle? *

You know I find it Ironic, * There are three folks here, * Complaining about Loud Pipes in Michigan. (The Key Word is Michigan) * One Guy Lists Chicago, *as where he is from, * One Guy Lists South Bend Indiana and the other is from Grand Ledge, Michigan, *Which is near Lansing, *where's there's not much snow. * *It seems they all come up to where we live and tell us how we should be doing things. * If ya don't like it, *stay home. *

Now the MightyRX1 has to resort to name calling as well. *
Did you really Call us STONED? * Would you please explain in full, *the intent of that statement? * *Stoned would imply that I either, *#1 do drugs, Which I do Not!! * Or #2 *I drink Alcohol, *which Again I do NOT! * So enough with the mis-information. * *

Again I quote you MightyRX1, *"------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
You're comparing apples to oranges! *Bike week is just that, bike week. *Not every weekend as in snowmobiling come winter time. *What I left out in my post was that his parents have to put up with that sh*t every weekend. * I also didn't mean to imply that it bothered me the few times we are there but I feel for the people that live there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guess what, *I am the people who live here, * But, * Don't feel for me. * You say your friends parents are here every weekend. * Let me tell you, *I am 60' off the trail *24/7/365! * And you say 4 months is 4 months. * Well I say 12 Months is 8 Months Longer. * *And let me let you in on a little Secret! * I have 3 houses on the Trail here with-in a 1/4 mile of each other. * IT'S NOT THE LOCAL'S COMPLAINING! * IT SEEMS TO BE THE NON-LOCALS COMPLAINING! * THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT TO ALL THESE THREADS! * * *

You guys need to feel for yourselves, *not us. * *Listen to yourselves. * *Read what you write. * You try to tell everyone what they need to do. * Man, *Let people think and do for themselves. * *You tell us, *to "Wake Up", *You tell us our thought or Views, *regarding Motorcycles are Wrong, *You don't like us using Loud Pipes, * You accuse us of being Stoned. * You Even Tell us What and What not to Compare it to.... * * *Do you do this with everyone you come in contact with. * If So, *No wonder your buddies were complaining to you all the time. * *Maybe they were just using Pipes as an excuse to complain to you and there are *deep underlaying problems. *(Like you having to tell everyone what to do and what to say) *Just maybe..... *

MightyRX1 speaking of "Packing Heat", * Z570SS Speaking of wanting to Shoot Someone in a parking lot. * *Do I see a need for Anger Management Courses in the future? * *

Your probably going to write back next and tell me what kind of day to have next, * *aren't you?

ZMan.......

Oh, *it's 6:30 AM. * Any Suggestions of what I should have for breakfast? * With folks telling what and how to do everything, * I am losing the ability to think for myself.

Lady Doo

08-30-2002, 06:21 AM

First of I would just like to ask "Can I get some cheese with that whine?" *I have a 98 Formula III with crank shop pipes, the loudest pipes I could find. *If you are complaining about the sleds that drive by at 3 am then you should be whining about drunk A-holes, not loud pipes. *I live right on the trail also and never once have I complained about loud pipes. *

And I quote Machzzzz1 " You would have to be listening for it to hear it. *Or your house is made of toilet paper." *

What a great way to put it. *So is your house made of toilet paper?

Last edited by phazerhater at Aug. 30, 2002, 2:57pm

jwheeler

08-30-2002, 06:55 AM

Check out the new chick speak her mind http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif , we need more girls like you into hardcore sledding. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

Darryn Duncan

08-30-2002, 07:32 AM

I want to play in this game as well. I have a set of stingers on my zrt and it is loud. We are aloud to drive our sleds from our house and take the shortest route out of city limits as long as we follow the highway traffic act (20km/hr, stop signs, and of course noise). When I come home at 4:00am my wife doesn't hear me until I crawl into bed with her, my 2 and 3 year olds don't wake either. There has not been a complaint in our city (Steinbach, Mb, Can.) that I'm aware of since this law has been in affect. The police have even allowed us sledders to ride to gas stations that aren't on the outskirts if it is shorter to do so, as long as we aren't being stupid. As far as I know the little communities around southeastern Manitoba realize that snowmobiling is a vital source of economics for them. Some have gas stations and would probably have to shut down in the winter due to lack of traffic, but with the amount of sledders (and their loud pipes), these gas stations are ordering more fuel two and sometimes three times a winter (could even be more). The bars in these same communities are in the same boat. Some people may complain but they do behind closed doors and don't push the issue, because they know sledders are a big part of their income. Now that I vented, ZmachMan, 4 strips of bacon, two eggs baisted, hashbrowns, cup of java and a glass of OJ should do you fine.

michahicks

08-30-2002, 07:47 AM

Call me an "old fart", or anything else if you like, but I can see past my nose.

Running a snowmobile on the trail system is NOT comparable
to kids walking down a sidewalk or Harleys taking over a town during bike week. We are not operating our sleds on public property a LOT of the time. We are GUESTS operating on PRIVATE property. We are leasing property from people who are VOLUNTEERING their property, for a very nominal sum, for the use of snowmobilers. Why is it so hard for some people to understand this? Do you enjoy friends bringing along their unruly kids and letting them run rampant with no guidance, when they visit your home for a few hours?

This has absolutely nothing to do with freedom, we are talking about being responsible for our actions to people who are acting as our hosts while we are on or near their property. Do you understand what happens when these people get tired of the noise, not to mention other hassles, and decide not to renew their lease? What about when entire towns or communities get tired of it? Don't believe it will happen? Get your head out of the sand, it is already happening in the U.P.

The money thing. Use your head. Put yourself in their shoes.
How much abuse would YOU tolerate before you told people
expecting service, because they are on a snowmobile, to stay home.

I'll save you the trouble, if you can't be a proper guest, stay home. If you are home, this law is for you...
AL

Machzzzz1

08-30-2002, 08:05 AM

As long as you ride with respect like Zmachman said and lay of the throttle when you come across a property at the late hours of the night, i dont think they have anything to complain about. *

All I know is that stock pipes on any Doo are loud period. *Arctic cat and polaris are fairly quiet but a machZ with stock pipes cuts thru the air, *If a MachZ went right past a house with stock pipes wide open it would wake or annoy anyone inside just as well. *This is why we need to know how to drive and respect people by letting of.

Mighty RX-1

08-30-2002, 08:09 AM

michahicks, you hit the nail right on the Head! *Listen to this guys, he made my case!

As far as where I ride, there are many retiries in that area and believe me, their voice is heard with the local goverment. *

As far as my sled goes, I took the grief when I would fuel up (the noise bouching off the concrete as you drive up to the pumps), or when I would be riding down trails with high banks on either side or even when we would fire up the sleds early in the AM to get a head start. And no I'm not one of those idiots that's on the trotlle at the worst possible time.

As far as hearing your Z across a lake machzzzz1 I believe your wrong there. *I was on Houghton lake (largest in-land lake in MI for you canucks) watching some in-formal drags. *My buddy was running his 98 mach Z with stock pipes and within seconds of him leaving the starting line you couldn't hear him anymore.

Mighty RX-1

08-30-2002, 08:12 AM

All it takes is one drunk on a loud sled to have non-sledders paint all of us with a broad brush.

phj

08-30-2002, 08:16 AM

I'am a private land owner in northern lower Michigan and I will tell you this; if sled's don't quiet down, part of this trail will close!.

Mighty RX-1

08-30-2002, 08:20 AM

phj, that is exactly what my buddies parents have said.

ZMachMan

08-30-2002, 08:46 AM

phj,

There is an old saying, * If you move in with the natives, *then do as the natives do. * *I think Ada is about 175 miles south of here. * I am not sure where you bought land up here at. * But you made my point perfectly. * It's not the Locals complaining, *it's the Weekend Warriors. * *Nobody forces anybody to ride up here. * *

ZMachMan

maluchm

08-30-2002, 09:09 AM

If it's not the locals complaining then from what I see, it
is all the citidiots that are.

I was in someones shop one day and he started up a Mach Z
with stock pipes.....revved it up a little.....shut it down
and the proceeded to fire up a Mach Z of the same year just
with Crank Shops on it (hope that doesn't give it away) and
guess what.....the tone was different but to the naked ear
I couldn't see how the Crank Shops were WAY louder then the
stock pipes.

I think most of the problem lies in the respect arena. These
dumb ars's that think a parking lot is a racing track
continually show there enormous IQ that they have. Maybe
some of you compasionate complainers need to direct your
bad feelings toward something else...like um maybe...people
that get hammered then go out on the trail. Or people that
think the trail system is a one way racing track and they're
by themselves. Gee nobody could be coming the other
direction now could they. Next time you're rolling thru town
or next to a house make sure you pin it to the bar on that
enormous snow bank just so you can look cool. Before you
fall off and look like the Dink you are.

As far as Harley and street bikes go..."Loud pipes save
lives"...Does anyone think there is some reasoning behind
that ao is it just a sticker.

Mighty RX-1

08-30-2002, 09:17 AM

I'm really not sure how loud pipes on a bike can save lives? *I have a Yamaha V-max with pipes and it sounds freagin awesome, kinda like my vette. *But you don't hear me coming but you sure hear me leaving.

maluchm

08-30-2002, 09:31 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Aug. 30, 2002, 10:17am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm really not sure how loud pipes on a bike can save lives? *I have a Yamaha V-max with pipes and it sounds freagin awesome, kinda like my vette. *But you don't hear me coming but you sure hear me leaving.[/b][/quote]
Bikes can easily fall into a blind spot of any car or truck.
Now if you can here them, you know they're there.
Most people driving on the road have complete disregard for
bikers and they don't look for them, just other cars and
trucks. Just an example!

Darryn Duncan

08-30-2002, 09:37 AM

I hear more vehicles coming and going because of the stereos in them and havent lost any sleep over that.

Mighty RX-1

08-30-2002, 09:50 AM

Great idae zert! *With the wattage my RX-1 can put out I'm gonna install some tunes!

StAyFrOsTy

08-30-2002, 09:59 AM

http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Personally I think loud pipes on a snowmobile would save lives because of the cross country skiers on the trails that dont know what the #### a snowmobile is!!(Plus they are very slow) But then again it could kill people with horses since the loundness scares them LOL!! Seriously people if you have loud pipes be respecful if you come on some guys land that hates noise but if its wide open area then let that thing BRAAAAAPP!!! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif My friend has a 650 enduro motor in a XCR 440 frame with open pipes made to look stock(the stingers collect together at the end to look like canaster LOL!&#33http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif But he is always looking out for noise sensitve areas(he tries to never ride in them!! lol) So just lookout for thing like that. As for the DNR being able to ticket us if we have an aftermarket exhaust system(even if its quiet) thats BS!!!!

TallCool1

08-30-2002, 01:15 PM

Looks like everyone is agreeing to disagree, and trying to say the same thing. *Who cares if someone drives by my house w/loud pipes, as long as they have the respect to not pin the throttle. *It seems like there is an assumption by some (read, not ALL) that loud pipes = disrespect or unorderly conduct. *Have to be able to seperate the two. *I love my pipes, and would hate like #### for someone to tell me I had to remove them...they might have to catch me first. *I've never had anyone give me crap about my current pipes or on my previous sled. *Just be respectful to others, and we should all get along. *Perhaps the trail systems could place signs when we near someone's home so we would know to lay off the throttle a little.

dooman

08-30-2002, 03:38 PM

I think what zmachman is saying is if we give up our libertys to easy they will take them all.I agree with this 100%.I also have land in northern lower michigan.I do not have a problem with loud pipes I have a problem with the people who have no respect for others.I think the one about your buddys un-rulely kids is not a very good one because that is the parents responsibility to keep them undercontrol and raise them to be respectful of others,these must be the kids riding louds sleds by late at night wfo. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

mxzwfo

08-30-2002, 03:57 PM

I could not agree more dooman!

Mikadoo

08-30-2002, 04:41 PM

Seem's the majorty is for anyway you like it and I agree, this is America isn't it? My problem with loud pipes is most "dont" have any respect for others. The thing about sleds ripping up and down the motel parking lot at 3am is a total lack of respect for others. These same people have no respect weather it be populated or not and this is what is "killing" our sport. Most of you say " Take it easy on private property". How do you know when your on private property or not? How do you take it easy when a two stroke has to have at least 5000 RPM's stay under motion? I really dont think everyone with loud pipes will be crusising around at 5 MPH.

As far as the people "up north" not complaining about us, you that say this are DEAD wrong! I have met many folks across this great state, even married a gal from Munising and believe me, there is a big portion that hate our gut's! Most business people put up with us because of our MONEY and are glad when the weekend is over. It's not just loud pipes, it's things like lack of respect for the people like, I'am paying you good money for this room, if I want to trash it I will, or, can I get some service over here, like now! There is a lot of people out there that think just because they layed out a few bucks that they are some kind of royalty............

dooman

08-30-2002, 05:01 PM

I agree with you Mikadoo.as for the people that "hate our guts"I can only say if anyone hates me(just because I snowmobile) and has never met me they are the true losers in life.this is one of the big problems out there everywhere,and in everyday life, generally lumping individuals into one big group(stereotyping) totally ignorant to do this and is wrong in every instance ,morally and legally.

RNM2399

08-30-2002, 05:35 PM

Amen brother Dooman!
* * * * * * * * * *Ryan

Mikadoo

08-30-2002, 05:55 PM

One of the things that really stick's in my mind was when we run into some young locals at bar on the west end of the U.P one early eveing.
We were minding our own business when one of the drunk'in lads came over and started ragging on us about how we think we are better than him. This came about because we were snowmobilers with new $6000.00 sleds and real snowmobile suits [not carharts]. We implied in no way we were better than him but this was "his" thinking of what snowmobilers are as many do from the poor communities of the U.P.
After a while of talking to us + a few beers, his outlook was much different about some of us sledheads, a + I might add.

michahicks

08-30-2002, 09:27 PM

Geez,
Seems like the point of all this keeps getting lost. It's not about what WE like. It's about what THEY don't like. It would seem to me that THEY are in control, not US. That's why we ALL will eventually wind up living with this new law. It's been proven that the noise IS a problem, and THEY have done something about it, after we have proven we would/could not.

Some have mentioned respect. That's what should have happened before this law. It's not like we didn't see it coming. Now we've proven, by the creation of this law, we are not capable. We've proven it's our likes before theirs. THEY should learn to "live with it"...... Yea, right. *

By the way, just for the record, a triple triple running stingers and pulling hard at high revs up the side of a mountain is the most awesome sound around, second to none! Yup, I love it too.

AL

ZR Sled Head

08-31-2002, 01:04 AM

To those that feel they have the God given right to run race cans and open pipes on public trails, give your head a shake. Continued use WILL result in more and more landowners shutting gates. Even though I support regulating the noise level from a sleds exhaust, here in Ontario the OPP and local coppers are now ticketing even those with a reasonable sounding sled if equipped with an aftermarket exhaust system or if they feel the stock system has been modified as to alter its sound in any way. Certainly they are taking it too far, but given the number of selfish individuals that continue to use these exhaust systems that can be best described and nothing more than noise, it was to be expected. *Rick.

http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif

ZMachMan

08-31-2002, 04:34 AM

ZR Sled Head,

Who ever mentioned running race cans or "OPEN PIPES"?

ZMachMan

ZMachMan

08-31-2002, 04:43 AM

Michahicks and Mikadoo,

You two keep referring to a "New Law". * Could you provide us with a Michigan Bill Number. * Is this new law passed? *Is it sitting in Lansing waiting to be passed? *Who proposed this new law? * *I keep hearing about a new law, *but I can not find any hard evidence? * *

I have been told there is only the Standard Noise Ordinances that are in effect in each local government. * *So this is becoming somewhat confusing. * *I would like to find the Bill Number, *so that I may research this further. *

Thanks,
ZMachMan

ZR Sled Head

08-31-2002, 07:56 AM

Z Mach, what else would you call running stingers, gutted cans or hollowed out stockers? Some of the aftermarket exhaust mfgs themselves have seen the writing on the wall and are now producing more trail friendly products. Read through the earlier posts, some are proud of the fact their sleds are loud and obnioxios. Some of the laws are clearly an over reaction by the powers to be, but given the fact some sledders flat out refuse to use any common sense as to what should or should not be used on a public trail, what choice did they have but to shove it down our throats? Don't get me wrong I would love to have a slightly throaty sounding exhaust on my own, but under the current laws in Ontario, its not worth the hassle. In some areas you can expect to be stopped multiple times a day checking for paperwork, why add fuel to the fire with an aftermarket exhaust that will only cause you more grief and guarante a $108 modified exhaust ticket?

Wolfman

08-31-2002, 08:37 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (800MXZ @ Aug. 29, 2002, 08:07am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The limit will be 98db, cause that is the standard that the sleds are built to. My 98 XC600 is a loud stock sled, and it came with a tag in the owner's manual saying they were legal because they were loud from the fact. This is such BS! They should just set a db limit, not this tag crap! As long as it stays under the limit, we should be able to run 4" stacks thru the hood with flippers![/b][/quote]
Ya sure that the limit is 98db? *I've read numerous articles stating that 78db is the limit. *Stock sleds have to meet this, and the noise level is going to be reduced to 75db in the next few years.

Wolfman

08-31-2002, 08:39 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (maluchm @ Aug. 29, 2002, 3:11pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rocketman @ Aug. 29, 2002, 3:02pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ARCTICZRT600 @ Aug. 29, 2002, 04:36am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If they don't like my stingers, they better have a warrant to come on my property or they are trespassing, and we know what happens to trespassers, don't we. *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif[/b][/quote]
Tresspassers will be shot -- Survivors prosecuted http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif[/b][/quote]
Here in the states, survivors sue because they got shot
and get evrything you got. *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/b][/quote]
That is what acreage is for!!! *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif

Shoot the tresspassers and bury 'em dead or alive! *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif

Wolfman

08-31-2002, 08:53 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZMachMan @ Aug. 29, 2002, 9:49pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Aug. 29, 2002, 9:37pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Forget what words the newbie chose to use and look at what he was actually saying. *I agree 100%, loud pipes are killing this sport! *My buddy and I will go up to his parents cabin a couple times per year. *They are surrounded by public trails that must go thru their private propoerty to connect. *You can hear some sleds for litterally miles. *Both coming and going. *It's really pathetic! *His parents are strongly considering revoking sledders rights to use their property. *I can't say I blame them. *You should hear these sleds fly by at all hours of the night.[/b][/quote]
You and your buddy goes up to his parents cabin, * a couple of times a year. * So does that mean you have to listen to sleds maybe 6 or 8 nights a year? * Would that be correct to say? * Well, * I Live on the Trail, *Year Around, *60' off the trail. * *So I have the opportunity to hear Loud Pipes a few more times a year than you do. * *Now, *if anybody has a right to bitch about loud pipes, *I would think I would qualify, *but I don't. *Do you know why? * Because if we let the Gov't start with the regulating of Loud Pipes, *then they will have their foot in the door and what will be next? * If you want your sport ruined guys, *start siding with the tree huggers. * * * Do you guys believe in Gun Control Also?

ZMachMan.....[/b][/quote]
There's alot more to it IMO, than putting up with noise a few nights a season. *It has to do with CLOSURE of trails. *This is one of the greenies arguments for kicking sleds out of our national parks. *Those who work in the parks must listen to them day in and day out throughout the entire winter season. *To the performance pipe manufacutrers, I say go back to the drawing board. *It is possible to make a performance pipe without making it obnoxiously loud.

Nobody here is siding with the greenies. *We simply want to be able to enjoy snowmobiling.

Secondly, If I were to be a land owner with a trail on it, you had better bet that I would still want some semblance of peace and quiet while I'm there.

Remember, you are on somebody else's property, and you had better respect their rules. *Otherwise, they are very well in their rights to kick you out.

Sled Dogg

08-31-2002, 10:05 AM

Aftermarket pipes would be alot quieter if they kept the super thin metel they currently use that makes them so loud but put a sound shield on them as the factorys all do now. Look at the Viper,REV600HO,800 they are so quiet. A sound shield would kep the perfornce but ands the sound but would change the type of sound to one of a lower octave. Look at cars, at the Dream Cruise there was every horspower and exhaust system on earth. But the best sounding and performing were the nice walker and flowmaster seups. Even the 700-1000HP supercharged motors wern't to loud. They had that sound of pure authority and hp but didn't blast your ears untill they really opended them up. And thank god the only glass packs were on cars that didn't look like they were worth 1,000 bucks as they sound horrid and everyone was commenting on how bad packs sound now. Funny how times change. And for you glaspack lovers to each there own so love them all you want. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Caleb

Rocketman

08-31-2002, 10:05 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wolfman @ Aug. 31, 2002, 07:37am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (800MXZ @ Aug. 29, 2002, 08:07am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The limit will be 98db, cause that is the standard that the sleds are built to. My 98 XC600 is a loud stock sled, and it came with a tag in the owner's manual saying they were legal because they were loud from the fact. This is such BS! They should just set a db limit, not this tag crap! As long as it stays under the limit, we should be able to run 4" stacks thru the hood with flippers![/b][/quote]
Ya sure that the limit is 98db? *I've read numerous articles stating that 78db is the limit. *Stock sleds have to meet this, and the noise level is going to be reduced to 75db in the next few years.[/b][/quote]
78 dB is the stock sound level. HOWEVER..if you measure the noise output of a LAWNMOWER it is around 91 dB!

Mikadoo

08-31-2002, 10:27 AM

ZMachMan, call MSA #616-361-2285 if you want the low down on this issue. I talked to the president at Nelson's and he said we are only one step away from signing on the aftermarket rule and the stamping of all new models IS in effect for 04.
MSA is pushing this issue because of all the land owner complaints and land closures. The stamping deal is between a few states, us included.
As we all know, not all trails are on state land, some must pass through private land to connect back to state owned property. All it takes is one person to say NO and it really throws a monkey wrench into the situation. If some of you would ride more than a 50 mile radius of your cabin you would know that the noise issue is REAL and not a few crybabies.

Here is a trail that changes most ever year:Indian River to Alanson.
The trail from Indian River to the Big Mac has been battling for YEARS to get opened, it's there, it's has signage and bridges, just cant get the peoples permission to do it!
Indian River to Cheboygan, most of the trail is there but on private property, again, no permission.
Chocolay twp. west to Marquette closed, again, private property.
Chatham to Gwinn closed last year but re-opened again.
And god knows how many others there are.
What is the reason for this? Noise and inconsiderant people, not in any particular order!
Ask youself this, do you want to snowmobile across this wonderful state and enjoy everything it has to offer or listen to your noisy sled in your garage?
I like the sound of a good mellow tone myself, but this berrrrappp racket that breaks your ear drums is what is ruining it for everybody.
Here is a good example of a noisey sled: A bone stock ZRT!!! Up until about 00-01 they were by far the noiseyest sled out there! How did it ever pass a "so called" db. test? IMO a ZRT soundes like a real pile.

08-31-2002, 10:54 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Ask youself this, do you want to snowmobile across this wonderful state and enjoy everything it has to offer or listen to your noisy sled in your garage?[/b][/quote]

http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif

Or you could record it and listen to it on a walkman as loud as you want http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ZMachMan

08-31-2002, 06:40 PM

Mikadoo,

I will call MSA on Tuesday Morning. * IF, *what you say is true and that MSA is supporting this regulation of our rights, *then the MSA will not get another dime of my money, *nor should they get yours. *

Everyone who thinks this ordinance or law or whatever it is, (nobody has been able to give me a bill number) * is going to "Help" us all, *needs to read the book, *"The Power of Perception".

Just ask our friends to the West, (Minnesota and Wisconsin) *how these ordinances has "helped" them out. * *Stud Bans, *Outlawing Aftermarket Pipes, *Restriction of Lake and River Riding, *etc. * * Just because the DNR got their foot in the door, *and when they did, *the didn't stop... *

Ask Paddlegrabber Dan, *how he and the DNR in Wisconsin have butted heads. * *Go ahead, *blind your eyes to the truth, *and see where, *how and what your riding in a few years. *Then think back to this post and who wrote it.....

Have you ever heard the phrase, * "Give them an Inch and they will take a mile? * *Do you guys think they should close Yellowstone Too?

ZMachMan.........

Mighty RX-1

08-31-2002, 06:56 PM

sleddog, the shielding on the pipes does nothing to the sound. *It's there to keep the heat in the pipe which improves the exaust flow.

ZMachMan

08-31-2002, 08:07 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Aug. 31, 2002, 7:56pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">sleddog, the shielding on the pipes does nothing to the sound. *It's there to keep the heat in the pipe which improves the exaust flow.[/b][/quote]
Sleddog,

The Shields on the pipes are for Noise Reduction and to reduce Underhood heat. * They do not improve Exhaust Flow.

IF you don't think they are there for sound, *take the shield off the your stock pipe and see how loud they get. * That is what the Insulation is for under the Shield, *Noise Reduction. *

*Maluchm and I took a Stock Mach Z, *with stock Pipes *and a Mach Z with Crankshop Trail Pipes and started them both in my shop. * The results were amazing! * You couldnt notice where either was more noticeably louder than the other. *The CrankShop Pipes were just a little more Throaty.

ZMachMan

Mikadoo

08-31-2002, 09:09 PM

Tim, you are right about 'give them an inch and they will take a mile'. Seems one thing leads to another. At the end of riding season I was told by the folks that work at the swamp in Frederic that if you get caught crossing the Manistee river next year 'this year' it will be a big fine. I wonder if this will be state wide or just the Manistee? I love doing water crossings once and a while. Down home we ride the Bad river from St. Charles to Saginaw Bay all the time 'with good ice'.
All I know is that I want to ride trails and not roads when I come up north and be at peace with the people there.
If banning noisey pipes will do that, them I'am for it as long as there is not a price to pay by sticking more and more rules down our throats.......

ZMachMan

08-31-2002, 09:22 PM

Mike,

I agree there are those who have Very Loud Pipes and no respect for anyone else who need to be Stopped. * That I agree with. * But to say all of use responsible Aftermarket pipe users, *who do act responsible should be penalized for those who have no respect is just wrong.

I am not sure of the waterskipping at the Manistee River to Fact or not, *but I heard that because a couple of sleds sunk there last year and dumped oil into the river, * that the DNR was going to stop all River Crossings. * *

I for one, *do not waterskip. * I just Drag Race the Potato Fields! * *See ya this winter Mike.

ZMachMan

Mighty RX-1

08-31-2002, 09:35 PM

I bought a 670 HO for my daughter from a guy that needed cash really bad (I bought it cheap, that's the reason I bought it for her). *The pipe was rusted and I hate rust so I took off the shielding to paint the pipe. *She rode it one weekend without the shielding then I put it back on. *There was no noticable difference in sound with it on or off. *

The shielding does help with flow. *It keeps the pipe hot. *The hotter the pipe the better (within reason). *A good example is the 98 mach Z. *Before you run someone it is a good idea to make a pass or two to heat up the pipes. *My buddies is this way. *I use to really walk him on my 99, then we would go back the other way and would pull me in the middle.

Mikadoo

08-31-2002, 09:37 PM

Tim, I hear what you are saying, but all it takes is a couple bad apples to ruin it for everyone. I do not have an answer for this stereotyping that non- snowmobilers have seem to givin us. One thing I have learned from the folks that live there yearound is, if you stop and talk with some once and awhile they seem to have a new positive look at what we do for fun once they understand that as with any thing we do in life, we have our assholes too....

ZMachMan

09-01-2002, 06:12 AM

Mike,

I understand that "Race Pipes" that are obnoxiously Loud, *that were built for and intended to be used for racing, *should not be used on the trails. * To that I agree. * But the Crankshop Trail Pipes, * do not fit that criteria. * In fact, *Crankshop trail pipes operate at about the same db level, *as stock pipes.

Now here is where the problem lies. * When you say loud pipes to a bunch of bureaucratic gavel pounders in Lansing and let them decide our future, * they are going to ban anything that is not stock. *Simple and Plain. * I would bet, *that the ones in Lansing, *deciding on your snowmobiling future, *probably do not even own or ride snowmobiles.

So my thought was, *and still is, *if the President of the MSA and the rest of the MSA Board *isn't smart enough to figure this out, * then the future of snowmobiling in Michigan is in big Trouble! * *Think about this in full....

ZMachMan

ZMachMan

09-01-2002, 08:06 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Aug. 31, 2002, 10:35pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I bought a 670 HO for my daughter from a guy that needed cash really bad (I bought it cheap, that's the reason I bought it for her). *The pipe was rusted and I hate rust so I took off the shielding to paint the pipe. *She rode it one weekend without the shielding then I put it back on. *There was no noticable difference in sound with it on or off. *

The shielding does help with flow. *It keeps the pipe hot. *The hotter the pipe the better (within reason). *A good example is the 98 mach Z. *Before you run someone it is a good idea to make a pass or two to heat up the pipes. *My buddies is this way. *I use to really walk him on my 99, then we would go back the other way and would pull me in the middle.[/b][/quote]
MightyRX1,(Dan)

I do not know or understand the full extent of your mechanical ability. * But the amount of *misinformation that you offer this forum is astounding. * It is everyone's Right, *to post freely on this site, *but please, *don't try to confuse everyone with inaccuracies.

If you would like to know my ability I will tell you. * I work on Snowmobiles Year around. * My test and tune time with pipes is Extensive. * I have personally tried Dynoport, *HTG, *Crankshop, *PSI, SLP, *Jaws and vast array of others. * I have tested with stock pipes, *Modified Stock pipes, *Stock Pipes with and without shields. * I do this almost on a daily basis. *

My Clutching, *Porting, *Big Bore's, *Carburation and Chassis Set up also is very Extensive. * *Most days you can find me wrenching on sleds from 6:00 AM until 10:00 PM on most days. * *So I have a little experience. * *

Everyone with knowledge of the 98 Center Dump Pipes, *understands that because of the DESIGN, * they need to be hot to perform. * *This much needed heat for optimal perfomance, * has nothing to do with the Shields on the pipes. * *Again the Shield has nothing to do with performance. * The only reason for the shield is sound and under hood heat reduction.

Let me ask you a question if I may? * If shielded pipes run so much better than pipes without the shields, * then why don't they build aftermarket Race Pipes come with shields. * Those pipes are built for Maximum performance and they don't have shields. * * * *Could you answer this for me?

I am not trying to Argue, *I would just like some Straight Facts, *not opinions.

ZMachMan

ballsout1

09-01-2002, 08:27 AM

I think the implication was the sheilding will let the pipe reach *a x amount of temp quicker similar to if they were wrapped, not necesarily changing the final hot result, but your point is well taken Mach in so much that was least on the manufactuers minds. My two cents on the noise noise subject is that I have people running by my house late with both quiet and loud pipes and they shouldnt be makin anymore noise than they have to espcially that I dont live near the trail, its my yard, the loud pipe thing just adds fuel to the fire, there are inconsiderate people all over and having a barking pipe makes it easier for the inconsiderate ones to be more inconsiderate.

Wolfman

09-01-2002, 08:29 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZMachMan @ Aug. 31, 2002, 7:40pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have you ever heard the phrase, * "Give them an Inch and they will take a mile? * *Do you guys think they should close Yellowstone Too?

ZMachMan.........[/b][/quote]
They already have closed Yellowstone. *The BRC, ISMA, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho are all fighting to get the ban overturned.

SKI-DOO-U-2

09-01-2002, 11:25 AM

I live about *a mile form a state trail. The only time the noise really bothers me is after 12:00am *and the majorty of you are right it's the people that are not smart enought to come in out the rain(sleds at near full throtel going by *that are the real problem) As far as the saying Loud pipes save lives that is the dumbest thig that I've ever herd as *far as being on a bike next to a nother car.Think about it if your going 60mph down the highway you are moving forward not backwards so then you must be moving a way from the sound right? the same with sled or any thing with a motor. We share a cottage in Grandhaven it is about 2.5 miles from the peir *during the summer you can hear the big(scarrabs,foutains)boat *a good 3to 4 miles out *most of the time you hear the motor and never see the boat!So as far as the loud pipes go most of you are right a little comon sence goes a long way

dooman

09-01-2002, 03:37 PM

you may be moving away from the sound but your not going fast enough to outrun it,the speed of sound is much faster than the car.that being said on the road when riding bikes loud pipes do save lives.if you do not think so,I have one question have you rode a street bike in traffic?

ZMachMan

09-01-2002, 04:09 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SKI-DOO-U-2 @ Sep. 01, 2002, 12:25pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I live about *a mile form a state trail. The only time the noise really bothers me is after 12:00am *and the majorty of you are right it's the people that are not smart enought to come in out the rain(sleds at near full throtel going by *that are the real problem) As far as the saying Loud pipes save lives that is the dumbest thig that I've ever herd as *far as being on a bike next to a nother car.Think about it if your going 60mph down the highway you are moving forward not backwards so then you must be moving a way from the sound right? the same with sled or any thing with a motor. We share a cottage in Grandhaven it is about 2.5 miles from the peir *during the summer you can hear the big(scarrabs,foutains)boat *a good 3to 4 miles out *most of the time you hear the motor and never see the boat!So as far as the loud pipes go most of you are right a little comon sence goes a long way[/b][/quote]

SKI-DOO-U-2,

If you think, *"LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES", *is the dumbest thing you have ever heard, * then:

1. *You must not be a motorcycle rider.
2. *You are Very young.
3. *Well, *I better not say it...

I have been riding motorcycles for 30 years! *I have Two V-Twins Right now. * *Plus I have a Motorcycle Forum, *very much like Snowmobileworld, *and in which I have about 600 V-Twin Motorcycle Members.

Let me tell you, *that "Loud Pipes, *DO SAVE LIVES. *It's not dumb. * Next time you see a rider on a big V-Twin, *walk over to him, *look him in the eye, *and tell him Loud Pipes Saves lives, *is the dumbest thing you have ever heard. * Then see how far you get.

I think you owe JWheeler an apology. * *If you want to pick on other peoples post's, *then I will tell you, *that you have 11 words in your post, *that are spelled incorrectly.

ZMachMan.....

P.S. *Those are Straight Drag Pipes, *W/Baffles Removed. * I want those other motorist's who are not paying attention to the road to hear me, *if they can't see me.

ZR Sled Head

09-01-2002, 09:45 PM

Z Man, Who you trying to kid? All that straight pipes on bikes like that acheive is pissing off others to the point they would love to run you over just to shut the #### noise up. Try as you may, its nothing more than irresponsible/anti social *behavior that you try to justify by saying its for safety. "Straight drag pipes with the baffles removed". Do you know any other jokes?

Last edited by phazerhater at Sep. 02, 2002, 1:16pm

need snow

09-01-2002, 09:57 PM

what is considered loud depends on the person,what is loud to some is music to my ears!
but it doesn't have to be loud to make ponys,if there is no HP gain there is no need to go louder.

the SLP single on my little ol 700 does just fine to get me where I was never meant to be *
http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

michahicks

09-01-2002, 11:17 PM

I ride bikes, a lot, Goldwings, haven't been ask for my ID in a very long time, and I believe "loud pipes save lives" is bunk also. Am I to understand that there is anyone that would encourage all bike riders to remove their mufflers so they may be more easily kept track of while in traffic? Or does this logic only apply to V-twins? Or maybe only to "some" V-twins?

I'm sorry. This isn't the place to be discussing this. But the thought that there is anyone out there that believes that they can make all the noise they want to when on a bike, in the name of safety.... well, they have no respect for the people within earshot, or to the future of biking.

Out on the road by myself, yes, it's fun. A four stroke of any kind make great noises with open pipes when running well.

But not the kind of noises I like to hear running along beside me in traffic. A bike running straight pipes can damage ears. Why in the name of God would anyone encourage their use, especially in the very likely situation for most of us, heavy traffic?

Just for a second lets imagine we are driving an older car with no AC on a warm day. We are driving in the right lane, baking in the sun, with your windows down trying to stay cool, just wanting to get home. Now some biker running straight pipes pulls up along side you and accelerates. There aren't many of us that would thank this person for this treat to the sound of open pipes and motorcycling in general..

Consider for a second, at that point, while along side of us, the exhaust pipe outlets on that bike can be less than 4 or 5 feet from someones ears and in the case of the ever popular slashed/turned out pipes, pointed directly at them! You think loud pipes are popular with the average member of the public, next to, or anywhere near you on the road? How incredibly selfish. Need the noise to advertise your presence in their blind spot? Why are you there to start with? If you believe noise is the answer to safety in traffic, why don't we just put a switch on the horn button and turn it on when we get near traffic?

I've heard this phrase before, and I can't think of anything more self serving or illogical. What a total crock....
AL

Steven Hohman

09-02-2002, 02:03 AM

I can say that loud pipes don't save lives at 3 a.m. riding with their pipes just vibrating my room. *Since you say loud pipes saves lives, why don't we all have them? *I can tell you why, because if everybody had them, you wouldn't notice the bike in your blind spot. *Exhausts are loud enough, if you want more ponies, look other places, they are just a nuisance when you have some a-hole circling your block at 3 am. *

Now before you guys blow up on me and pick apart my little speech, Not all bikers with pipes are bad, most are kind enough to show you courtesy of keeping the rpm's down which doesn't make as much noise, but not all of them.

ZMachMan

09-02-2002, 05:48 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZR Sled Head @ Sep. 01, 2002, 10:45pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Z Man, Who you trying to kid? All that straight pipes on bikes like that acheive is pissing off others to the point they would love to run you over just to shut the damm noise up. Try as you may, its nothing more than irresponsible/anti social *behavior that you try to justify by saying its for safety. "Straight drag pipes with the baffles removed". Do you know any other jokes?[/b][/quote]
Jokes? ? ?

dooman

09-02-2002, 05:57 AM

what joke? I have riden bikes for 18 years now.these are not jokes or b.s.

ZMachMan

09-02-2002, 06:20 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 02, 2002, 12:17am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I ride bikes, a lot, Goldwings, haven't been ask for my ID in a very long time, and I believe "loud pipes save lives" is bunk also. Am I to understand that there is anyone that would encourage all bike riders to remove their mufflers so they may be more easily kept track of while in traffic? Or does this logic only apply to V-twins? Or maybe only to "some" V-twins?

I'm sorry. This isn't the place to be discussing this. But the thought that there is anyone out there that believes that they can make all the noise they want to when on a bike, in the name of safety.... well, they have no respect for the people within earshot, or to the future of biking.

Out on the road by myself, yes, it's fun. A four stroke of any kind make great noises with open pipes when running well.

But not the kind of noises I like to hear running along beside me in traffic. A bike running straight pipes can damage ears. Why in the name of God would anyone encourage their use, especially in the very likely situation for most of us, heavy traffic?

Just for a second lets imagine we are driving an older car with no AC on a warm day. We are driving in the right lane, baking in the sun, with your windows down trying to stay cool, just wanting to get home. Now some biker running straight pipes pulls up along side you and accelerates. There aren't many of us that would thank this person for this treat to the sound of open pipes and motorcycling in general..

Consider for a second, at that point, while along side of us, the exhaust pipe outlets on that bike can be less than 4 or 5 feet from someones ears and in the case of the ever popular slashed/turned out pipes, pointed directly at them! You think loud pipes are popular with the average member of the public, next to, or anywhere near you on the road? How incredibly selfish. Need the noise to advertise your presence in their blind spot? Why are you there to start with? If you believe noise is the answer to safety in traffic, why don't we just put a switch on the horn button and turn it on when we get near traffic?

I've heard this phrase before, and I can't think of anything more self serving or illogical. What a total crock....
AL[/b][/quote]

michahicks,

You have been ask for your ID while riding? * Well, *guess what, * I never have. *Ever. * * So if you have been ask for your license and I haven't, *who seems to show more respect on the road? *
*
You posted, *and I quote: * "But the thought that there is anyone out there that believes that they can make all the noise they want to when on a bike, in the name of safety.... well, they have no respect for the people within earshot, or to the future of biking".

Go back, *Read the posts again and tell me where I said I go out and make all the noise I want? * *You need to stop putting words into peoples mouth. *I can operate my bike so the pipes are no louder than anybody else's on the road. *Then If I am beside somebody and they are coming over on me, *I can Clutch it and give it a Good Rap on the Throttle. * Then they know I am there. *

You speak of Heavy Traffic, *Where in the heck do I ride in Heavy Traffic? * Have you ever rode with me? * * *"If" *I ride the city, *which I don't very often, *because why would I want to, *then my baffles are in my saddle bags and I bolt them back on. *Again it's called respect, *knowing when and when not to.

You are missing the point to this entire thread. * You keep posting, *but you are missing the entire point. * *Go back and read everything. * I don't understand why you put words into others mouths *and fabricate untruths, *just for the sake of argument. * *

Z......

I have an Idea, *why don't you bring your Goldwing, *and *come up and ride with us. * *Then if you think my bike is loud or obnoxious, *then you can post that on here with some degree of intelligence. * Same thing with your sled. * You are more than welcome to ride with us. * Then you can tell me If I ride with respect and if my pipes are too loud. *

You see, *I view your comments on me and my vehicles, *like I would view me commenting on riding in a space shuttle. * I could make an uneducated guess, *but that's all it would be.

ZMachMan

09-02-2002, 06:29 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Steven Hohman @ Sep. 02, 2002, 03:03am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I can say that loud pipes don't save lives at 3 a.m. riding with their pipes just vibrating my room. *Since you say loud pipes saves lives, why don't we all have them? *I can tell you why, because if everybody had them, you wouldn't notice the bike in your blind spot. *Exhausts are loud enough, if you want more ponies, look other places, they are just a nuisance when you have some a-hole circling your block at 3 am. *

Now before you guys blow up on me and pick apart my little speech, Not all bikers with pipes are bad, most are kind enough to show you courtesy of keeping the rpm's down which doesn't make as much noise, but not all of them.[/b][/quote]
Steven Hohman,

I agree with you. *The guys riding by you house with loud pipes at 3:00 AM with no respect should be stopped. * I have a couple of house's I ride by, *on the way home at night. *What I do is pull in the clutch and coast by with the motor at idle. * * *I have never had a complaint, * from my neighbors.

Are you a motorcyclist? *If so, *what type of bike do you ride.

Z.......

ZMachMan

09-02-2002, 06:37 AM

Dooman,

No sense arguing with ZR Sled Head. * That is why I responded the way I did. *There is no substance to his post. *It is all babble. * Very incoherent. *

He says Loud Pipes, *and I quote: "All that straight pipes on bikes like that acheive is pissing off others to the point they would love to run you over just to shut the damm noise up."

I guess from this statement, *he can read everyone's mind. *What a Psychic he must be. * I know when I am riding, *I can not tell you what others are thinking. * I wonder how he does that? * *

Z.......

PS *Watch your spelling ZR Sled Head, *your spelling sucks.

Sled Dogg

09-02-2002, 09:23 AM

Z,
* *I've missed your posting but we know that you'll be posting when some one hits a cord with you. It's great watching you go man. I must admit I will have to check your bhike out next time I'm up there. I've never heard of someone taking baffles in and out. it's a neat idea. I should be bringing the motor up in the next two or three weeks. Good to have you posting again Tim.
caleb

Cat_Rider

09-02-2002, 01:39 PM

I lived right next to a Railroad through line, a loaded freight train at 60 MPH is louder than anything, and the Airports, and the local Fairgrounds/Circle track, how about the highways through a city at rush our, EVERYTHING MAKES NOISE.

The fact is that laws are made by crybabies, they will get away with it because the govt. loves to make laws, CONTROLL is their major concearn.

History proves that HUMANS, like all of us here, are selfish, agressive and controlling. And when you have the power of a govt. working with you, you win. Crybabies will win for that reason.

By the way, the police can do what ever they want and get away with it, includes tresspassing to give you a ticket. Don't fool yourself, they have guns AND friends with more guns! And laws written like "Probable cause" so if they think you MAY break the law, the probable cause has been determined, base covered.

I WANT TO HAVE LOUD SLED! LIKE MY DG's. should be a choice, it is not. IT IS CALLED "EXPECTED COURTISY TO OTHERS"

Sorry.

Cat_Rider

09-02-2002, 01:56 PM

The shield on the pipes does help quiet, it also does help exhaust flow BY keeping the heat in the pipe.
Motorcycles ARE also affected by noise ordinances.
Who cares anyway.

09-02-2002, 02:07 PM

I wonder what people will do when the oil supply is going to run out (about 50 yrs). Put sirens on electric cars to save lives? Wouldn't that be COOL *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

Mikadoo

09-02-2002, 03:14 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AC @ Sep. 02, 2002, 3:07pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wonder what people will do when the oil supply is going to run out (about 50 yrs). Put sirens on electric cars to save lives? Wouldn't that be COOL *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif[/b][/quote]
We may not have to wait 50 years if we go to war.
Gas will be $5.00 a gallon. Snowmobiling will have to wait for most of us. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif

SKI-DOO-U-2

09-02-2002, 03:29 PM

that was not a slam on wheeler! And Zman 1 I do ride a bike(907gsxr) I have been raceing quads and bike for 15 years so i do know a little about them!2 I whish I was young 30years old. 3 go a head and say it ? the point *that i was makeing is that it *THE PEOPLE WITH NO RESPECT THAT ARE THE PROMLEM!!! A motor does not have to be loud to make power
I build motors in 3 of the top 10 cars at kalamazoo speedway and one at Berlin raceway. they have a 98dbl limit the 421ci small block is the loudest motor that we have and it only reads at 90dbl at 5600rpms (587hp/495fpt) *so I do know a little about that to . As for the spelling *O well *you win some you lose some

Mikadoo

09-02-2002, 03:52 PM

I'am looking into my crystal ball and I see the Feds [that have never even rode a sled] banning studs and Oh, looks like a 35 MPH speed limit too. Dont tell me! Four strokes only like Yellowstone! I give up! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I know this is a serious matter but thought it was time for a little humor. Now I think about it, some of the things I just said are true in at least one state and Canada!!

ZMachMan

09-02-2002, 04:41 PM

SKI-DOO-U-2,

I agree, *it's not the pipes or the sleds or the bikes. * It's the amount of Respect that the riders have. * SO my point to all 10 pages of this post was: *Let's not Condemn everyone who uses aftermarket pipes, *because we have a few idiots out there. * That was my point. *

Why don't you come and ride with us this winter. * Check out the way I handle my Crankshop Pipes on the Trail, *then if you want to comment on my situation, *I will gladly listen! *Fair enough?

ZMachMan

DanR

09-02-2002, 04:56 PM

http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif *OK ! *i think Zman has made his point clear enough ~ !

after we all get together and ride this winter i think we will all see this post a diffrent way !

ZMachMan

09-02-2002, 05:00 PM

Hi DanR!,

Whats up buddy? *I haven't heard from you in a while. *Are you ready for winter? * I am still thinking of selling my personal Mach Z. *Are you still interested?

ZMachMan

Machzzzz1

09-02-2002, 10:21 PM

I think the main problem here is that everyone is basing there comments on there own experiances with loud pipes. *

Just like how someone thought Zman was riding in the city and as it turned out he was riding in the country. *

Im sure we all like to show respect and most of the time we probably all do. *But I remeber driving my buddies SRX with loud pipes. *Im following my buddy on a stock Mxz and when we get infront of someones house he doesnt slow down and I dont want to lose him. *To be honest if i was to slow down to the point where i was making the same noise as my buddies MXZ I would have had to almost stop.

Im still holding my opinion of most stock pipes are just as loud as some of the performance pipes, but the facts are that there are some real loud ones that the racers use and forget to change back before a race.

All I know is that last season a OPP officer was so mad and red in the face when a couple young guys driving a 600 mxz came around the corner with a modified exhaust. *The cop gave them huge crap. *I was right there and told the cop that i wasnt aware that you were not allowed to have a louder then stock exhaust and he just replied thats just the way it is.

So its out there and we have to be careful.

As for loud pipes save lives. *Well i rode a bike for a few years and i would not agree with this 100%. *There are a few instances were this might have worked. I once had a women driving a saturn change lanes right beside me i had to kick her window to get her to realize what she was doing. *I dought a quick rap on the exhaust would have done anything. *I also think that the majority of loud exhausts on bikes are way overkill. *They hurt the eardrums and somtimes scare people into crashing or doing somthing they wouldnt.

Then again we have all seen diffrent things and who are we to judge what we dont know or see.

I will also never drive a bike again in the city after that event with the saturn. *If i ever live in the country I will definitly have to revisite this sport.

09-02-2002, 10:47 PM

Machzzzz1, you surprise me, I didn't know you could be so reasonable in a comment, guess we'll have to watch out for flying pigs *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

jwheeler

09-02-2002, 10:51 PM

Guys when i said loud pipes save lives on the bottom of my post i didint really mean anything by it, as its just a saying i heared of and thought it would fit there since we are talking about pipes here http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

DanR

09-03-2002, 07:26 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZMachMan @ Sep. 02, 2002, 6:00pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hi DanR!,

Whats up buddy? *I haven't heard from you in a while. *Are you ready for winter? * I am still thinking of selling my personal Mach Z. *Are you still interested?

ZMachMan[/b][/quote]
Hi Tim !

* * * * * Cant wait to get up to your place and ride this winter ! *

Sorry for the mach but im saving up for a REV next season. *
Put an Ad in the classified section, im sur alot are intrested !

I was thinking maybe we should start a section
"Ask ZMachMan" * *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

hispd

09-03-2002, 08:55 AM

loud pipes save lives http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/devil.gif

maluchm

09-03-2002, 12:10 PM

Please read this link and add your comments!
http://www.snowmobile.org/facts_sound.asp

michahicks

09-03-2002, 01:03 PM

ZMachMan,

OK, some explanations are in order.
The reference I made to not having had my Id checked was an attempt at qualifying my age. You had blown off the opinion of a person a couple notes earlier saying they either didn't ride a bike, they were young, or http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The reference I made to running in heavy traffic? How can you avoid it? Even if you attempt to stay out of the cities, you've never ridden on the expressways and had to come to a stand still, or into stop and go traffic? C'mon let's be honest.

Here's why I keep coming back to this string. I value your opinion, and maybe I have this all wrong, but you sound, (hate to put words in your mouth again, so correct me if I'm wrong&#33http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif throughout most of your notes, as though if it were up to you, you would endorse the legal use of any (including loud) pipes, not only on bikes, but sleds as well. You are not in support of this propasal. I have a problem with that.

Let's forget about the bike issue and keep the topic relevant.

I believe the general public is tired of asking the sledders to quiet down (not to mention the next issue - speeding). They are tired of asking for respect and not getting it. Snowmobiling leaders are tired of campaigning for more trail availability, only to be turned down, or ignored completely, for noise reasons. I believe this law is in the best interest of snowmobiling, now and in the future, as long as they don't make it impractical by banning the use of any production exhaust system. As for the after market, they should be held to the same standards that the OEM people are.

I believe you are wrong in your support of the right to run the pipes of our own choice despite the noise levels they are capable of producing. No matter how well intentioned, to ask and expect all people to use them with discretion and respect? I think most would agree it's not going to happen. By most? Maybe. But not by all. I would ask that you review your standpoint on this proposal and if you still don't agree that it is in the best interest of snowmobiling's future, please explain. Maybe I'm wrong.

I would ask that you keep in mind that we are not talking about you're personal equipment, habits, or practices. We are discussing the picture that the general, mostly non- snomobiler, public see when they are looking at the sport as a whole.

AL

09-03-2002, 04:04 PM

Interesting article Maluchm. It does state that the noise of stock snomobiles is alright but not of aftermarket and I doo believe that to be right cause if I *to compared the noise of my granfather's olympic 67 to some aftermarket so called trail pipes, the pipes were louder for Idle, crusing and top speed. This was at a snowmobile gathering and they were one next to the other. And yes, they were trail pipes, not even racing... The article about the effects of snowmobiling is also very good, Kinda contradicts everything that is said by treehuggers.

SKI-DOO-U-2

09-03-2002, 07:43 PM

Zman i would love to ride whit you some time *I also have Crank shop trail pipes. *Sorry for the stress on the last post

Steven Hohman

09-03-2002, 08:59 PM

Zman, I don't ride anything, as I am 14, but I am looking into the virago 250 for my first one.

ZMachMan

09-03-2002, 09:22 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 03, 2002, 2:03pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ZMachMan,

OK, some explanations are in order.
The reference I made to not having had my Id checked was an attempt at qualifying my age. You had blown off the opinion of a person a couple notes earlier saying they either didn't ride a bike, they were young, or http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The reference I made to running in heavy traffic? How can you avoid it? Even if you attempt to stay out of the cities, you've never ridden on the expressways and had to come to a stand still, or into stop and go traffic? C'mon let's be honest.

Here's why I keep coming back to this string. I value your opinion, and maybe I have this all wrong, but you sound, (hate to put words in your mouth again, so correct me if I'm wrong&#33http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif throughout most of your notes, as though if it were up to you, you would endorse the legal use of any (including loud) pipes, not only on bikes, but sleds as well. You are not in support of this propasal. I have a problem with that.

Let's forget about the bike issue and keep the topic relevant.

I believe the general public is tired of asking the sledders to quiet down (not to mention the next issue - speeding). They are tired of asking for respect and not getting it. Snowmobiling leaders are tired of campaigning for more trail availability, only to be turned down, or ignored completely, for noise reasons. I believe this law is in the best interest of snowmobiling, now and in the future, as long as they don't make it impractical by banning the use of any production exhaust system. As for the after market, they should be held to the same standards that the OEM people are.

I believe you are wrong in your support of the right to run the pipes of our own choice despite the noise levels they are capable of producing. No matter how well intentioned, to ask and expect all people to use them with discretion and respect? I think most would agree it's not going to happen. By most? Maybe. But not by all. I would ask that you review your standpoint on this proposal and if you still don't agree that it is in the best interest of snowmobiling's future, please explain. Maybe I'm wrong.

I would ask that you keep in mind that we are not talking about you're personal equipment, habits, or practices. We are discussing the picture that the general, mostly non- snomobiler, public see when they are looking at the sport as a whole.

AL[/b][/quote]
Ok Al,

Lets be real Honest, *That is what I have been trying to pull out in this Thread, *Honesty! * So here we go. * I will try to address each and every one of your concerns.

First, * your reference to running in heavy traffic. * *Listen to me close. * Ok, * I Do Not Ride In Heavy Traffic. * I have a motorcycle forum, *much like this one. * It is my forum, *OK. * You would not believe how much Crap, *I catch from the city boys, *because I, WILL NOT, *ride to the city Nor Will I Ride With Cagers (people in cars) on the Expressway. *Ok, *SO Lets be Honest! * I do not ride in stop and go traffic! *Heck I don't even ride in Gaylord or Traverse City! * Kalkaska is the biggest town I ride in. * *If I go to the Victory Dealer in Gaylord, *I take the back way into their shop and the backway out of town! * *What's so hard to believe about that? * I can't believe you question everything. * *If you don't believe me, *go to my forum and ask about 600 guys If I ride in congested area's. *

For your personal information I have been in 5, *yes count them, 5 Major Motorcycle Accidents in the last 30 years. *If I have learned anything, *it's not to ride around fools talking on the cell phones and ladies putting on make-up in bumper to bumper traffic. *

Second, *Why you keep coming back to this string. * Not to upset you any further, *but you are absolutely wrong. * I do not condone, *anyone who has no respect to others, *as far as noise is concerned. * I know when and when not to make my pipes rumble. * I believe when somebody is buzzing your house at 3 or 4 AM and being obnoxious, *then the Law needs to deal with them. * * As far as a proposal, *I have heard all kinds of vicious rumors of a proposal, *yet not one person to date, *has been able to produce a house bill number or any other kind of absolute proof. * Can you provide me one? *

What I endorse or do not endorse, * is my right to decide upon and choose. *Remember this is Free America, *not some communistic third world country, *where I am forced to believe in somebodys else's ideas. * *I have seen what has happened to Wisconsin, Minnesota, *Yellowstone and Canada. * Somebody says, *oh just go along with this little law and everything will be peachs and cream. * *Well let me tell you, *You just Let them get their foot in the door and see what happens to our beloved sport in a few years. * Yes, *If somebody is being obnoxious with their pipes, *then bust their butt, *but don't condemn us who have respect and do not bother anyone. * * What your saying is, *because a couple of jerks bother you in the winter, *you want to execute us all?
Come on, *let's think about this.

Third, *The General Public is tired of asking sledders to slow down and quiet down. * *So why don't we ask the government to make the Mini Z the biggest sled available? *Then we could make sure everyone was slow? *You just don't get it do you? * What we need is more law enforcement on the trails! * *Bust the speeders, *bust the Obnoxiously loud pipes, AND BUST THE DRUNK DRIVERS, * but leave the law abiding citizen alone. * *You ask about Respect and discretion with snowmobilers? *What about automobiles, *what happens when some jerk runs down the Expressway at 100 miles per hour? * If enough people do that, *do we cry to the Government to make cars slower? * What about all the cars with the loud exhausts? * Do we ask the Government to step in and ban them. *NO, *WE LET LAW ENFORCEMENT HANDLE THE PROBLEM!! * *That is what our trail system needs, *MORE LAW ENFORCEMENT!

First of all, *you don't know me, *but let me let you in on a little clue. * I have some rather fast sleds. *Some probably close to 200 HP. * I race with the best of them. *Always have and Always Will. * *I will run anyone hard on the race track. * If you race me, *you better be at the top of your game, *because I usually am at the top of my game. * *But that is on the track. * Ask many on this forum, * for a lot of them here have raced me.

Now let's talk about the trail. * When I ride the trail, *everyone usually has to wait for me! * I am the 35mph guy. * I ride slow, *watch the scenery and I do not race the trails. * I am cautious, *courteous, *and I am very respectful on the trails. *I stop to help all those in need. * I treat people, *the way I want to be treated. * *I write this because when you post, *I get the feeling, *you think I am this renegade rogue rider. * *Well let me tell you, *if you think I am, *just ask the guys on this forum. *

Now If I may, *Let me ask you a couple of questions *and I would like an Honest answer from you, *fair enough? *For I have answered yours honestly and to the best of my ability.

1. *If a drunk driver, *kills somebody in a car accident tonight, *do we Ban all cars and do we ban all Alcohol? *Or do we look for more law enforcement on the highways to watch for the drunk drivers?

2. *If somebody shoots somebody tonight with a gun, *Do we jump on the band wagon tomorrow and Start a Ban on all guns? * *What are you thoughts on these subjects?

You see Al, *I do not take any of these posts personal. *We in America have the right to speak freely. * We can say what's on our mind and we can agree to disagree. * Because I do not like your opinions or idea's, * doesn't mean I don't like you. * *For it is when we take things personal, *that we lose the ability to think with an unbiased mind. * Let's not bite off our noses, *just to spite our face. * *I am trying my best to get you to see my point of view in a professional mannor. * I have listened to each and every thought you have
expressed. * *I just get the feeling your not trying to listen to what I am really saying. * You don't have to have your back against the wall. *Nobody is attacking you here. * * *If you would like, *PM me your telephone number and a good time to call. *Maybe then we can make some progress with our ideas.

Also, *I would like to invite you to come and ride with me this winter. * Then after our ride, * *if you would like to condemn me, *you would have some basis to make your claim. *But heck, *who knows, *you even like riding with ZMachMan.... * Heck I might even buy you a pepsi and a burger!

ZMachMan

ZMachMan

09-03-2002, 09:30 PM

SKI-DOO-U-2,

You are welcome to ride with us anytime. *In fact, *usually in January, *we have a ride at my house. * We try to ride to the Mackinaw Bridge and Back! * Full days rides. * It is about 180 miles round trip! * Nice slow ride. *It takes about 3 1/2 hours up at an average of 35 mph, *then we eat lunch at the bridge and then we return. * We leave at 8:00 AM and usually get back about 5:30 PM. * *Last year we were cheated out of our ride to the bridge by Mother Nature! *Let me know the next time your headed this way and we will get together.

ZMachMan.

ZMachMan

09-03-2002, 09:38 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Steven Hohman @ Sep. 03, 2002, 9:59pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zman, I don't ride anything, as I am 14, but I am looking into the virago 250 for my first one.[/b][/quote]
Steven,

Let me tell you, the Virago 250 is an Excellent Choice! * I used to own a Virago, *it was a 750. * My Son is about your age and he is also looking at the Virago 250. * *When you get your motorcycle endorsement and your motorcycle, *You get in touch with me! * *We'll take the Scooters and give them a spin down the country roads! * My son will be riding by then and he and my daughter will probably be riding with us!

My son is going to start with a little Snowmobile racing this year. *My daughter is already a pretty good racer in her own right. *(Just ask some of the guys on this forum! LOL) * Don't tell anyone, *but she's whooped a few butts on this forum, *and I have to admit, *she's also beat me *a few times! *She rides a 1998 FIII 700. *Ported, Piped, V-Force, *and of course, *ZMachMan's Clutching. *Her Sled Rocks! *

Talk to you later,
ZMachMan

revrnd

09-03-2002, 09:44 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Aug. 30, 2002, 09:12am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All it takes is one drunk on a loud sled to have non-sledders paint all of us with a broad brush.[/b][/quote]
It's bad enough the looks you get from non-sledders (cross country skiers) that may be on the trails when you ride by them. A few sleds w/ after market or altered exhaust are really going to please them.

Bigmac, any idea what detachment of the OPP stopped you? I was talking to the cops last winter on sleds from the Peterborough detachment & they never mentioned anything. Then again I never asked.

It was asked why outlaw aftermarket pipes that meet the db limit & stamp the OEM pipes & only allow them? For the bureaucrats & cops it's easier to just look for the tag. Does anyone have any idea what the correct procedure is for testing the sound level. Now besides a radar gun the cops will be needing a db meter.

It would be great if the aftermarket pipes were allowed, but we're dreaming if you think the politicians will help us out.

dooman

09-04-2002, 06:21 AM

amen to that zmachman,I agree with that 100%.you were the guy holding us back on the trail,but when we hit the field you was waiting on us.so it all evens out,lol.

ARCTICZRT600

09-04-2002, 06:21 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZMachMan @ Sep. 03, 2002, 10:30pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SKI-DOO-U-2,

You are welcome to ride with us anytime. *In fact, *usually in January, *we have a ride at my house. * We try to ride to the Mackinaw Bridge and Back! * Full days rides. * It is about 180 miles round trip! * Nice slow ride. *It takes about 3 1/2 hours up at an average of 35 mph, *then we eat lunch at the bridge and then we return. * We leave at 8:00 AM and usually get back about 5:30 PM. * *Last year we were cheated out of our ride to the bridge by Mother Nature! *Let me know the next time your headed this way and we will get together.

ZMachMan.[/b][/quote]
I bet that's a nice ride. *Sounds like fun.

ZMachMan

09-04-2002, 06:40 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ARCTICZRT600 @ Sep. 04, 2002, 07:21am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZMachMan @ Sep. 03, 2002, 10:30pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SKI-DOO-U-2,

You are welcome to ride with us anytime. *In fact, *usually in January, *we have a ride at my house. * We try to ride to the Mackinaw Bridge and Back! * Full days rides. * It is about 180 miles round trip! * Nice slow ride. *It takes about 3 1/2 hours up at an average of 35 mph, *then we eat lunch at the bridge and then we return. * We leave at 8:00 AM and usually get back about 5:30 PM. * *Last year we were cheated out of our ride to the bridge by Mother Nature! *Let me know the next time your headed this way and we will get together.

ZMachMan.[/b][/quote]
I bet that's a nice ride. *Sounds like fun.[/b][/quote]
ARCTICZRT600,

Come and go with us this year on our ride to Mackinaw! * *I see you stay in Lewiston! * I know the guys at the Lewiston Cat Dealer! * I am usually in Lewiston at Twin Lakes Marina, (Ski-Doo Dealer, *Chuck Walter) *at least two or three times per week.
Let's get together this winter!

ZMachMan

ARCTICZRT600

09-04-2002, 10:11 AM

You know Mark and Ed at Lewiston Motorsports? *That sounds cool. *Thank you. *I used to spend alot of money at the Marina when I had my Ski Doo.

michahicks

09-04-2002, 02:50 PM

ZMachMan, agreed, nothing personal, thanks.

I'm sure our paths have crossed many times, hopefully we were both on our own sides of the trail at the time <g>. If you're serious about the ride, and figure you could deal with a small group of Polaris triples, it would be my pleasure. My place is a couple miles SE of town, could meet you or your group anywhere you'd like. Breakfast?

But let me ask one thing before going any further in our discussion. I hope we can agree to keep this relevant to the subject at hand, and that would be noise. Not guns, bikes, drinking, other laws, or other places. Noise.

In all honesty, I have not seen anything in print regarding the law, proposal, whatever, myself either. I hope we can agree that the note a few pages back was correct. Even if it were not, and there is no bill, I think it's only a question of time befoire there is one. Lets discuss the point, not the bill.

Let me ask a question, short and simple. Do you believe that the public is interested in allowing our trail system to grow?
As you are from Gaylord, I think you'll agree that there is a problem. Now, if we were to ask the public, or take a poll, would you agree that noise might be at ar near the top of the list of their objections? I think it would. Do you think that they are thinking of you, your sled, the exhaust system installed on your sled, or your driving habits? No. They are thinking of all the sleds, not you, not yours.

They hear noise. The noise is coming from snowmobiles, and they want to do something about it.

Want a better picture of what they are thinking of? How about looking for the blue cloud lingering around the intersection where the main trail crosses old 27 south near the gas stations, motels, and I75. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of sleds run through there on a good afternoon. Hang out there for a few moments and observe the noise levels. Voluntary noise control around high density areas at it's finest. Yea, right, not going to happen. Not to the level that it needs to be at to gain trails. Think that's a stretch of the imagination? I can think of a few other places to sample, like Larry's and the BP station in Lovells, we both know there are lots of them, and we won't have to go far to see them. The armpits of snowmobiling.

Now lets try a little different idea.
Would you subject your machine to a reasonable DB test, to gain access to a new trail system? Like maybe the one that they've been trying to open running east out of Indian River? I know myself and the guys I ride with wouldn't give it a second thought. Of course we would. We're legal, and so are the vast majority of the others. *How would that be much different than what we are discussing?

There is a problem. To expect voluntary noise reduction on a scale that will make a difference now, well I think that's expecting a bit too much.

AL

Machzzzz1

09-04-2002, 04:00 PM

In some ways it sucks not being able to put any exhaust you want on your sled.

But i think thats to far. *I think that there should be a certain db level that all pipes have to meet inorder to be run on the trails. *If its 78db then all pipes including stock and aftermarket can be used. *I had the cops accuse my mach stock pipes of not being stock. *Took about 5 min of explaining before he let me go. *A$$.

If this is what the people want inorder to let us keep driving on there land then im all for it. *I love this sport to much to throw it all away because of a cool sounding pipe.

Its like nascars run straite pipes which is very cool, but pretty much no one will do it to there v8 domestic on the roads because its just not done. *Theres a few but there the ones that are disrespectful. *

For a bike i dont care about the noise. *Its true that being loud sure helps drivers in there almost sound proof cars and trucks no that there coming or beside them.

idooski

09-04-2002, 04:24 PM

So far (I'm still looking) this is the only bill I've been able to find dealing with noise from snowmobiles.
(just an excerpt from NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT
Act 451 of 1994
324.82126 Operation of snowmobile; prohibitions; construction, operation, and maintenance of snowmobile trail; conditions; “operate” defined; prohibited conduct; assumption of risk.
(d) Without a muffler in good working order and in constant operation from which noise emission at 50 feet at right angles from the vehicle path under full throttle does not exceed 86 DBA, decibels on the “a” scale, on a sound meter having characteristics defined by American standards association S1, 4-1966 “general purpose sound meter”. A snowmobile manufactured after July 1, 1977, and sold or offered for sale in this state shall not exceed 78 decibels of sound pressure at 50 feet as measured under the 1974 society of automobile engineers code J-192a. This subdivision does not apply to a snowmobile that is being used in an organized race on a course which is used solely for racing.

Still Lookin'

idooski

09-04-2002, 04:36 PM

Several searches at Michiganlegislature.org turned up no other info related to noise levels. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mighty RX-1

09-04-2002, 04:56 PM

Call Michigan snowmobilers assoc. *It isn't a bill yet.

TallCool1

09-04-2002, 04:56 PM

Al, I understand what you're saying. *However, I think the other side of the coin is that there are other recreational vehicles that cause just as much noise as sleds...so why should we have to give in to more restricted noise levels than they do? *Any person living on water knows how noisy boats can be. *Why should we be pushed around more than the others? *I guess the answer to that could be that the trails do require permission from private landowners. *But, that's where more law enforcement would help. *I do agree that the answer to this "problem" is law enforcement to deal w/the guilty instead of the innocent having to give up something they enjoy. *It is just an "easier fix" to restrict people on what kind of pipes they can use. *I believe the references made by ZMachman to alcohol and drunk drivers, guns and killers, are very similar to this issue...why take away the pipes when it's the people misusing them that is the problem??
Just my .02

Mikadoo

09-04-2002, 05:19 PM

Just got the Sept. issue of Michigan snowmobile News today.
Says nothing yet on any new noise laws? Please feel free to talk to Tom Myers MSA president about this issue as I did at Nelsons and judge for yourself.
The magazine has his ph# and e-mail, it is: # 989-752-8809 *E-Mail: tmyers61@msn.com
http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleeping.gif

SKI-DOO-U-2

09-04-2002, 06:27 PM

Hay Zmanany time you need a place by Houghton lake to crash(sleep) i got one for you. Come on down for tip up town in febuary !

ZMachMan

09-04-2002, 08:22 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 04, 2002, 3:50pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ZMachMan, agreed, nothing personal, thanks.

I'm sure our paths have crossed many times, hopefully we were both on our own sides of the trail at the time <g>. If you're serious about the ride, and figure you could deal with a small group of Polaris triples, it would be my pleasure. My place is a couple miles SE of town, could meet you or your group anywhere you'd like. Breakfast?

But let me ask one thing before going any further in our discussion. I hope we can agree to keep this relevant to the subject at hand, and that would be noise. Not guns, bikes, drinking, other laws, or other places. Noise.

In all honesty, I have not seen anything in print regarding the law, proposal, whatever, myself either. I hope we can agree that the note a few pages back was correct. Even if it were not, and there is no bill, I think it's only a question of time befoire there is one. Lets discuss the point, not the bill.

Let me ask a question, short and simple. Do you believe that the public is interested in allowing our trail system to grow?
As you are from Gaylord, I think you'll agree that there is a problem. Now, if we were to ask the public, or take a poll, would you agree that noise might be at ar near the top of the list of their objections? I think it would. Do you think that they are thinking of you, your sled, the exhaust system installed on your sled, or your driving habits? No. They are thinking of all the sleds, not you, not yours.

They hear noise. The noise is coming from snowmobiles, and they want to do something about it.

Want a better picture of what they are thinking of? How about looking for the blue cloud lingering around the intersection where the main trail crosses old 27 south near the gas stations, motels, and I75. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of sleds run through there on a good afternoon. Hang out there for a few moments and observe the noise levels. Voluntary noise control around high density areas at it's finest. Yea, right, not going to happen. Not to the level that it needs to be at to gain trails. Think that's a stretch of the imagination? I can think of a few other places to sample, like Larry's and the BP station in Lovells, we both know there are lots of them, and we won't have to go far to see them. The armpits of snowmobiling.

Now lets try a little different idea.
Would you subject your machine to a reasonable DB test, to gain access to a new trail system? Like maybe the one that they've been trying to open running east out of Indian River? I know myself and the guys I ride with wouldn't give it a second thought. Of course we would. We're legal, and so are the vast majority of the others. *How would that be much different than what we are discussing?

There is a problem. To expect voluntary noise reduction on a scale that will make a difference now, well I think that's expecting a bit too much.

AL[/b][/quote]
Al,

I would really enjoy meet up with your group for a ride. * I ride with all brands of sleds. * I used to race Polaris until 1996. * I switched to Ski-Doo when I bought my 1997 Mach Z. * *

I can not promise at this point what our conversation would entail. * At this point for either of us to say, would be pure speculation. * I can only tell you I try to keep a positive open mind at all times.

I am not sure if we can agree on the noise situation. But that's what makes us Americans. *We can agree to disagree.
I would agree to a db test. * I know that unless I am WFO, *my crankshop trail pipes are as quiet as the Stock Mach Z Pipes. * I will admit at full throttle, *the Crankshops are louder. * But I do not run the trails WFO.

There a billion reasons why snowmobiling could be banned. * I think loud pipes are one of the least problems we have. * I would rather ride with somebody with Loud Pipes, *that has respect on the trails, *than somebody who is Drinking, *or the guy who has to run 70MPH on the trails. * Loud pipes may annoy some, *but High Speed and Drinking is a lot more dangerous. * *Maybe a priority adjustment is in need.......

I was on the phone with the state for at least 45 minutes today. * Nobody knew what I was talking about. * Nobody had heard anything about a new Noise Law for snowmobiles. *In fact, *I was told by one gentleman, *that as much money as the snowmobiles pump into the economy, *he would think such a law would not pass anyway. * *He also stated that Drinking would be much more of a concern to him.

Back when all this land up here was owned by the local folks, * there wasn't much of a problem riding your sleds anywhere you wanted. * We could ride on anyone's land and nobody cared. * Then when this land started being bought up for "Recreational Property" by people from southern Michigan, * the No Trespassion signs started popping up all over. * It seemed that the No Trespassing signs were part of the purchase agreement. * I can remember 20 years ago, *you hardly ever saw a sign, *Now they are everywhere. * *

I was the President of the local Sportsmans Club here for a number of years. * We tried to get a trail through private property, *so we could ride the back way into the Jordan River. * The local Folks said no Problem, *but the two pieces of property, *that were owned by folks from the Detroit Area, *said NO WAY. * *So, *I don't know what to tell you. * I think there a lot more to this situation that loud pipes. * So I can't say, that loud pipes is all we will discuss. * I am just being honest.

AL, *you need to view the entire picture. * Please do not view this subject with tunnel vision. One last question, *if I may:

If everyone in the world who owns a snowmobile, *switched back to Stock Pipes Tomorrow, * Do you think that would solve everything? * Do you think all those private land owners would suddenly open their lands to the trails system. * Do you think those cross country skiers would suddenly like Snowmobiles?

I am wondering if there is no Bill pending, *they why would MSA want to kick a sleeping dog? * Why would a organization that represents us, * go to the state and stir up a big pile of, *well, *you know what I mean. *This just doesn't make sense. * Now I have to wonder if we have the right people on the board at MSA.

ZMachMan

ZMachMan

09-04-2002, 08:45 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SKI-DOO-U-2 @ Sep. 04, 2002, 7:27pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hay Zman any time you need a place by Houghton lake to crash(sleep) i got one for you. Come on down for tip up town in febuary ![/b][/quote]
Hey, I might just take you up on that! *I have been wanting to go to Tip Up Town! *

Thanks,
ZMachMan

Cat_Rider

09-04-2002, 10:23 PM

I really like the way my DG SILENCER sounds. They are glasspacks, just like the Thrush Cherrybomb MUFFLERS. sure they are a little bit louder but I WANT to use them. No matter how bad I want to use them, I won't be able to because the CRYBABIES want everything to be quiet. Now that violates MY freedom and rights. I am a veteran, I fought for this country, I fought for the freedom that we do not have (I was blind to that). So when I get a ticket, then I will FIGHT it, then go public as much as possible and cry about my rights being VIOLATED because I did not get what I wanted. But the NOISE POLICE will still win, and in the end my sled will have the STILL LOUD but factory silencer. THE END

How about HayDays? Anyone going? Hey, just think, with all of these noise ordinances going into effect, there should be alot of those expensive pipes and silencers for sale CHEAP, for those who don't really give a Rats ARS.

Now it is really THE END (and hopefully for this post too&#33http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

maluchm

09-05-2002, 08:14 AM

I just spoke with the daughter of one of the previous
presidents of the MSA and it is her belief that her father
or the MSA would fight for our rights as snowmobilers and
not support such a law. It sounds like her father is hard
nosed especially when it comes to our rights as sledders.
Hopefully the current president is a very similar person.
The article link that I posted stated that a diesel truck
produces a higher db level then a stock sled. Interesting.
Diesel trucks are all over the road. We can't let them push
us around but we should try to educate the ones that have
shown no respect. I agree that drinking and driving is a far
worse problem then the noise. Then maybe speeding and being
reckless on the trails. I just don't want to see the "ball
get rolling" and our freedom of choice taken away. We, as
a group, need to educate the morons so they don't ruin our
beloved hobby. Weather or not YOU like the noise, smell or
looks isn't really relavent to this thread. This thread is
all about a phantom bill that is scheduled to be passed. And
weather or not it exists and how much of a problem it is to
the landowners that allow use to use their land. Not how
much the weekend warriors appreciate the sound. Oh, by the
way, I live in southern lower Michigan and have to travel to
where the snow is so I am one of those weekend warriors but
I do try to show as much respect as possible.

Michahicks and any others that don't appreciate the sound
note coming from sleds should stop by ZMachMan's house if
possible and see for youself how supprising it is when you
compare the noise LEVEL of stock pipes to his Crank Shop
pipes. You will be suprised. Please call him first! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ZMachMan

09-05-2002, 11:18 AM

141 Replys * 1834 Views to date. * *Is this like a New Snowmobileworld Record for a Thread?

phazerhater

09-05-2002, 12:33 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZMachMan @ Sep. 05, 2002, 11:18am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">141 Replys * 1834 Views to date. * *Is this like a New Snowmobileworld Record for a Thread?[/b][/quote]
I'm sure it's close! *See, you come back and the forum come to life.haha http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif
As long as everyone stays civil, it will break the record I'm sure. *It just seems most record breaking posts end up getting removed for some reason.... http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Last edited by phazerhater at Sep. 05, 2002, 12:37pm

Mikadoo

09-05-2002, 03:26 PM

ZMachMan, are you the author of any books? You sure do write alot and good at it I might add!

ZMachMan

09-05-2002, 03:37 PM

Mikadoo,

It's funny you should ask me that. * I have always wanted to write. * I really enjoy it. * *I guess I just need to make the decision to start! * Maybe this post from you will get me going!

Thanks Mike,
Tim

Machzzzz1

09-05-2002, 08:02 PM

Sorry not a record yet.

Lets think. *The topic that beat this one is about one sled made by a certain manufactor. *

The Mach Z in skidoo forum 198 replies.

currently on page 8

ZMachMan

09-06-2002, 05:50 AM

Well your post was on page 13 Machzzzz1, *and if the other topic was on page 8 does this mean that this post is 1/2 a record?

Now back to the topic at hand. * As Maluchm stated in his post, *if anyone is interested in seeing just how loud Crankshop pipes are, *they are more than welcome to stop by my shop and have a listen. *

Also, *it is amazing that all these folks, * were worked up because of a "Phantom" law. * *Well, *he called it Phantom Bill, * I call it a Viscious Rumor at this point. * *What needs to be understood, *is when you get this massive influx of snowmobilers every weekend, * into a rather normally quiet area, * there are going to be complaints. * Even if the sleds were electric *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif (gosh lets not give them any idea's) *and had no sound, *just the shear numbers would be enough to have some folks up in arms. * *

Let's just think about this sport for a moment. * *What other sport, *brings the influx of enthusiaists, * in the massive amounts that we see, *into any given area, *every weekend?

I mean, *you don't see the amount of *Boaters headed north to go boating every weekend, *like we see snowmobilers headed north. * *It's that Same with motorcyclists, *ATV riders and right on down the line. * *Al said that Bike Week is not a good comparision, *well I beg to differ. * *The snowmobiles I see headed into Northern Michigan "Every Weekend when there is Snow", * *Is like watching motorcycles converge on Daytona, *for the "One Week Bike Week". * * *

So my point is *Daytona Residents have to "Deal" with it, *for one week a year. * *Northern Michigan Residents have to "Deal" with it for the entire winter. * *Does this not make sense? * *And I guess some local people just get tired dealing with massive amounts of snowmobilers every weekend, *and therefore they are going to complain about something, *no matter what we do as a group, to try, *to prevent it from occuring. Has anybody ever thought of it this way.

I have one more question, *if I may:

How would the folks who live in Southern Michigan, *respond, *If I brought 10,000 Motorcyclists to your neighborhood, *every weekend, * all summer long, *and we rode your neighborhood all day and most of the night? * Some of us might have loud pipes, *some quiet pipes, *some going really slow, *and some at break neck speeds. *If we were to do this about 16 weeks a years, * what would your reaction be? * That is what the locals deal with up here during the winter from the snowmobilers. *

Next time your riding in your favorite area, * pull over to the side of the trail, *shut your sled off, * and then just observe. *After you do this for a while, *put yourself in the shoes of somebody who lives here and think about how they might feel. * I don't think this is just about Noise. *I think it's about trying to change the way folks live. * *And we all know, *it's human nature to resist change.

ZMachMan

Machzzzz1

09-06-2002, 03:43 PM

Zmachman. What i ment is that its on page 8 maybe 9 now in the skidoo section. *Its got like 19 pages.

Back to the topic.

There are 3 groups of people

People that want sleds banned.

People that dont care.

Peaple that sled and want to in the future (most of us)

The way i see it is by saying we have to get quieter and give up pipes and racing and driving fast just doest work. *THat would be %100 giving in to the greenies and lobbiests that are against us.

It would be like if the Greenies said that well will let them have yellowstone and increase the speed limit. *

If they were to do somthing like that i would feel that they are slipping and we got them on the run. *

By sledders to agree to give up somthing that they want (quieter pipes) we are playing into there hands and it wont be long until somthing else comes about. *Remember there goal is to ban sleds not control them.

And dont tell me that house owners are getting fed up. *The sled was invented in the 50s and now they are getting upset. *Each and every year we are getting more controled and its because of giving in to crap like this. *

Me personnaly dont like to run loud pipes on the trails and i dont. *But i dont get upset with people that do and neither should you. *

THe facts are that aftermarket pipes are louder but not by much. *ANd when you are inside a house you barly hear any sled. *It is just an other argument used against us like scaring animals or resperators at yellowstone. * If they really need resperators at yellowstone gates then they should fire those 98 year old guys and hire some young guys because i live in 2 stroke exhaust and never needed a resperator.

maluchm

09-06-2002, 04:16 PM

Exactly Machzzzz1! Don't give in BUT show respect when and
where needed.

Did you hear about the greenie that got mauled by a bear
because he said that he wasn't making enough noise? It's
kind of hard not to laugh at that. I'm still trying not to
but it's hard to hold back.

phazerhater

09-06-2002, 04:51 PM

That is a little ironic isn't it!hehe http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif

maluchm

09-06-2002, 06:18 PM

An article on the bear attack. Just a little off topic
sorry.

http://www.msnbc.com/local/pnboz/n350982.asp?cp1=1

ZMachMan

09-06-2002, 06:48 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Machzzzz1 @ Sep. 06, 2002, 4:43pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And dont tell me that house owners are getting fed up. *The sled was invented in the 50s and now they are getting upset. *[/b][/quote]
I understand what you are saying, *but in the 50's, *there wasn't 10,000 sleds on the trail either. * I remember in the 60's, *you were lucky to see a snowmobile on the trails. *

Now, *It is so crowded on the trails around here on the weekends, *that we don't ride. * We usually ride Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. * Then we stick to racing on the Potato Fields on the weekends where you can see 2 miles in any direction. * It's a little safer racing on the Potato fields at 100mph, *that it is trail riding! *At least that's the way I feel.

ZMachMan

Sled Dogg

09-06-2002, 07:49 PM

I'm comeing to that field this winter to become KING SPUD!!!! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *With your tuner expertice of course Tim. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Caleb

maluchm

09-07-2002, 07:46 AM

Sled dogg - To become King Spud you'll need to beat Tim's
Mach Z. Consistently I might add. God luck brother! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Then you have to worry about his daughter which might
possible put a butt whooping on you. *hehehe

dooman

09-07-2002, 02:21 PM

if you beat Tim you had better do it bad.he will put panda on the sled and then she will kick you butt.she is much lighter than Tim,lol.

michahicks

09-07-2002, 11:19 PM

Somebody mentioned noisey boats in an earlier note. I think that might be a decent comparison to what we are talking about here. Anyone care to discuss what is happening on the personal watercraft scene? I can't possibly think of a better example. A relatively young sport, almost totally unregulated, very similar to our own sport. Now look at what has happened to them lately. The politicians got tired of listening to them at their lakefront homes. More and more the use of personnal watercraft are being restricted, if not banned all together. The number one reason for this problem? Noise. They enjoyed the freedom to choose and run the exhaust sytem of their choice too. It doesn't work for them, that should be obvious to all of us. Why would you think it would work for us?

A person that has leased their land for use as a snowmobile trail does not have to "get used to it" or "live with it". All they need to do is pick up the phone and say "no". That's it. No more problem for them. Now it's our problem. We've got a hole to patch in a trail system. This is what makes them so different from residents of a community taken over by bikes during a rally. They would not be able to rid themselves of the problem anywhere near as easily.

"Greenies" are a problem that can be delt with. They make their needs public and discuss them publicly on a long term basis. The property owner seems to be much more volatile. He doesn't need to explain anything. He is one person. All he needs to do is have a bad day. To save that section of trail now, somebody is going to have to do some mighty fancy talking. What would you tell them if that responsibility were to fall on you? "Oh, sir, I promise not to pin it (the throttle) while in earshot of your property". While you are at it, don't forget to remind him of your freedom to choose and use the exhaust of your choice. That ought to help make your case for you. Yea, that ought to go over reeeaaal well....

The freedom to choose and run the (noisier than stock)exhaust of our choice does nothing to further the sport. What good can this freedom do, if it will potentially contribute to the loss of leased land? This "freedom" is completely selfish, and in most cases for what purpose? To make power? We all know most money that is spent on exhaust sytems do very little to actually make power. Please, I understand perfectly well that there are well engineered systems, usually expensive, complete, systems, that do make power and are no nosier than stock. The ones that should concern us are most easily *described as "noiser than stock".

I am not whining about noise. I am a snowmobiler, a very active one, and have been since the late 60's. I love the freedom to run the hundreds of miles of trails available to me virtually unrestricted. I don't want that to change any time soon, therefore I am looking down the road at next year and the years after that. With no changes, none of us are going to like what we see. It shouldn't take a crystal ball to figure it out. If we can't figure out ways to make our sport more acceptable to the public at large, we are going to find ourselves in exactly the same position as users of personnal watercraft find themselve in today.

It's not about "giving in" to anyone. It's about doing what is required to further the sport. *

Those of us around Gaylord-
Wouldn't it be neat to have a trail running west out of Gaylord, across the spud fields, to Larry's or the Jordan Valley trail? I can get across there, that's not what I'm talking about. What about a groomed, marked, trail? Would you think our chances of getting that might be better if we could GAURANTEE the maximum sound levels coming from the sleds that might use this trail?

AL

ZMachMan

09-08-2002, 07:04 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 08, 2002, 12:19am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Somebody mentioned noisey boats in an earlier note. I think that might be a decent comparison to what we are talking about here. Anyone care to discuss what is happening on the personal watercraft scene? I can't possibly think of a better example. A relatively young sport, almost totally unregulated, very similar to our own sport. Now look at what has happened to them lately. The politicians got tired of listening to them at their lakefront homes. More and more the use of personnal watercraft are being restricted, if not banned all together. The number one reason for this problem? Noise. They enjoyed the freedom to choose and run the exhaust sytem of their choice too. It doesn't work for them, that should be obvious to all of us. Why would you think it would work for us?

A person that has leased their land for use as a snowmobile trail does not have to "get used to it" or "live with it". All they need to do is pick up the phone and say "no". That's it. No more problem for them. Now it's our problem. We've got a hole to patch in a trail system. This is what makes them so different from residents of a community taken over by bikes during a rally. They would not be able to rid themselves of the problem anywhere near as easily.

"Greenies" are a problem that can be delt with. They make their needs public and discuss them publicly on a long term basis. The property owner seems to be much more volatile. He doesn't need to explain anything. He is one person. All he needs to do is have a bad day. To save that section of trail now, somebody is going to have to do some mighty fancy talking. What would you tell them if that responsibility were to fall on you? "Oh, sir, I promise not to pin it (the throttle) while in earshot of your property". While you are at it, don't forget to remind him of your freedom to choose and use the exhaust of your choice. That ought to help make your case for you. Yea, that ought to go over reeeaaal well....

The freedom to choose and run the (noisier than stock)exhaust of our choice does nothing to further the sport. What good can this freedom do, if it will potentially contribute to the loss of leased land? This "freedom" is completely selfish, and in most cases for what purpose? To make power? We all know most money that is spent on exhaust sytems do very little to actually make power. Please, I understand perfectly well that there are well engineered systems, usually expensive, complete, systems, that do make power and are no nosier than stock. The ones that should concern us are most easily *described as "noiser than stock".

I am not whining about noise. I am a snowmobiler, a very active one, and have been since the late 60's. I love the freedom to run the hundreds of miles of trails available to me virtually unrestricted. I don't want that to change any time soon, therefore I am looking down the road at next year and the years after that. With no changes, none of us are going to like what we see. It shouldn't take a crystal ball to figure it out. If we can't figure out ways to make our sport more acceptable to the public at large, we are going to find ourselves in exactly the same position as users of personnal watercraft find themselve in today.

It's not about "giving in" to anyone. It's about doing what is required to further the sport. *

Those of us around Gaylord-
Wouldn't it be neat to have a trail running west out of Gaylord, across the spud fields, to Larry's or the Jordan Valley trail? I can get across there, that's not what I'm talking about. What about a groomed, marked, trail? Would you think our chances of getting that might be better if we could GAURANTEE the maximum sound levels coming from the sleds that might use this trail?

AL[/b][/quote]
You just don't get it do you? http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Look at the lakes, *and look at the trails. *I think Noise Is A Excuse here! * It's the Massive Numbers of Sleds on the trails! * *That is the bottom line problem. * *

You might not understand because you live in the Urban Areas. * *I was at a meeting last week, *at the snowmobile Club. * *Listen Very Close, *because I heard a bunch of Land Owners there. * What they were saying was, *and I quote:
"We are sick and tired of being over run by thousands of sledders." * * NOISE WAS NEVER MENTIONED AS A PROBLEM!

Put Electric Noiseless Motors in the Snowmobiles and Personal Watercraft and see if the problem still doesn't exist. * People don't want to see, *massive amounts of watercraft out their picture windows on the lakes! *Noisy, Quiet or otherwise! *Period. * *

Do you know why, *the trails have not been opened between Larry's and Gaylord? * If the truth was known, *it is because the Jordan Valley Trail System is already overburdened. * Then DNR is concerned about the Ecological Impact on the additional Sleds in the Valley. * It's not the Landowners. *

Do yourself a Favor. * Go to West Branch on I-75 on a Friday evening in the winter and count sleds and Trailers heading north. * *Let me know what you see. * That is the underlaying problem, *but everyone can use noise or whatever else from an excuse. * But the real problem is, *"THE INVASION OF THE WEEKEND WARRIORS. * *

You wrote and I quote: *"To save that section of trail now, somebody is going to have to do some mighty fancy talking. What would you tell them if that responsibility were to fall on you? "Oh, sir, I promise not to pin it (the throttle) while in earshot of your property" * *

Al, *the local property owner would probably tell you, *"I don't even want a Sled within Earshot of my property, *not because of Noise, *but because of Sheer Numbers!. * *If you don't believe me, *get in your vehicle, *drive to my place in the next week or so *and you and I will go visit some of these land owners TOGETHER! * *Then when you post, *you will have some first hand knowledge, *you will be able to speak with experience *and not speak with pure speculation. * *

Now before anybody tries to pick this post apart, *what I have wrote here is not necessarily my opinion, *but what the Majority of Local Landowners and Local Residents feel.

ZMachMan

PS *AL, *I thought you were going to keep this subject on snowmobile noise and not Motorcycles, Watercraft, ect.
Just wondering.

ZMachMan

09-09-2002, 07:36 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sled Dogg @ Sep. 06, 2002, 8:49pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm comeing to that field this winter to become KING SPUD!!!! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *With your tuner expertice of course Tim. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Caleb[/b][/quote]
Caleb,

Bring that new play toy up this winter! * I love a Good Challenge! * *King Spud! * Ya Just gotta Love it!

ZMachMan.....

Machzzzz1

09-09-2002, 08:03 AM

You cant compair sleds to watercraft. *

However watercrafts are regulated. *2002 seadoos are quieter then the good ol johnson 15 and 9.9 two strokes. *

But the main reason is that seadooing does not help anyone out. *There is no main source of income to the towns and comunities. *With sledding there is. *Like mentioned before some towns and villages are dependent on the sledding income to survive. *

Up here where i ride there is hardly any traffic on the trails and im not aware of any land owners complaining, but I can see what Zman is talking about, Nobody wants traffic infront of there house.

TallCool1

09-09-2002, 09:45 AM

Al, you mentioned boats, but then went to pwc?!? *A scarab w/a couple big blocks and through-hull exhaust should be the loudest thing on the lake, not pwc. *Why do boaters, not pwc owners, not feel the same pressure for noise reduction? *I hate for this to keep going and going, but imagine this; *let's say all sledders give up our pipes and run the quietest exhaust available to "make everyone happy"...I guess then we will have no problems w/access to any private property that we need, right? *I mean, we could just assume that we'll get whatever permission we need to put a trail whereever we want. *I don't think so. *I would bet you that more landowners have complained about sledders not staying on trails and damaging private property than noisy sleds.

I guess w/your idea of doing things to further the sport, and not doing things that don't further the sport, we ought to just go ahead and produce sleds that don't go over 55 mph, obviously going faster than that doesn't "further the sport." *Don't get me wrong, if every landowner that has closed a trail on their property stood up and said that pipes were the problem, THEN I would be willing to change my belief. *But I believe you're chasing a symptom here, not the problem, and when you do that, the problem persists.

ZMachMan

09-09-2002, 09:50 AM

JIM FRITCH, *you are exactly right! * * Now we are getting somewhere! *

ZMachMan

michahicks

09-09-2002, 10:00 PM

Guys,
I agree this is getting long... and old. So lets all go out and buy some aftermarket cans so we can treat ourselves, our buddies, and the locals.....to some extra noise. It'll just be us,
right?

Wait a minute, wouldn't it be cheaper to just gut the mufflers?

I commute weekly, 400 miles round trip, run 4 to 6 thousand miles a year on the trails from Houghton Lake to Mackinac, and should go down to Grayling and count because I don't know how many *cars and snowmobiles are in use each weekend?

I've spent a major portion of my free time here, spend a substantal part of my income on local taxes, and have no clue about how the locals feel..... because I'm a weekend warrior?

A personal watercraft is not a boat. Shame on me. A 30 year lakefront resident should know things like that.

Scarabs are definitely cool, but I'd take a Hemi in a Sanger flat bottom any day. Either could easily break Michigans speed limit on inland lakes, 55mph. Try running past a deputy on a popular inland lake with dry headers if you're feeling starved for attention.

The noise coming from the direction of the trail running along side my property is just my imagination. Probably just the wind. Something I should just live with?

Your right, I don't get it.

Later,
AL

Machzzzz1

09-09-2002, 10:15 PM

Are you saying that all the problems people have with sledding, boating, and other rec sports is becasue of Noise.

Please dont get me wrong, Noise can be a nusiance but I dont belive that it is the problem. *Up here in canada it is against the Law to have pipes on a sled. *If you are caught the officer will take action, I dont know what but he or she will.

However there are still a few that run around with pipes on there sleds but im talking about 1 out of ever 50 sleds. *

But even though sleds with loud exhausts are hardly an issue we still have the same complaints as you do in Michigan.

This leads me to belive that this is not a real complaint just one that anti sledders feel will get more sympathy from other non sledders and get what they really want, the collaps of our sport.

Face it were dammed if we do and were dammed if we dont. *

If we give up loud exhausts it will only lead to another problem, traffic, polution, wildlife, and of course it doesnt help that every year people are killed thanks to carless driving and drinking.

Sledding is dangerous and without responcibilty is a death time bomb waiting to explode. *Yet pretty much all of us come out year after year with out any problem and we can owe this to our responsible and smart driving. *I belive people that have our responsibilitys can handle an other one. *Having loud pipes and knowing how to use them respectfully.

Thanks. *
Martin

NDMtnSledder

09-09-2002, 10:21 PM

I really don't think noise is a big reason for closing trails. *If you go to the local hot spot around my area you will probably see one in twenty sleds with aftermarket exahaust if that. *I was good friends with someone that was the VicePresident of the ND state snowmobile association and the biggest thing he mentioned as a reason for trail closer was riders not staying on the marked trail area. *As a land owner that has trail through part of our farm land I have to agree.

I also definetly agree with Machzzzz1 about it just being an antisledders finding and excuse to complain. *This makes me think of a radio talk show I heard this summer with a guy from PETA as the guest. *He had no logic behind his reasons for ending hunting, fishing, and ranching. *It was a matter of he was right and everyone with a different belief was wrong. *But he was wearing leather shoes the talk show host said. *What a contradition of his belief. *Lets face it extremests don't understand logic thats why their extremists and you will never make them happy.

Machzzzz1

09-09-2002, 10:26 PM

Exactly. *Do you guys really think that in a area with 25 sleds per minute one or two sleds with loud exhausts will be an issue.

The problem is that people cant stand other people having fun when there not. * Im sure if everyone that complaned got a map to the nearest dealer and a 10000 dollar gift certificate our problems would be over.

ZMachMan

09-10-2002, 05:30 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 09, 2002, 11:00pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Guys,
I agree this is getting long... and old. So lets all go out and buy some aftermarket cans so we can treat ourselves, our buddies, and the locals.....to some extra noise. It'll just be us,
right?

Wait a minute, wouldn't it be cheaper to just gut the mufflers?

I commute weekly, 400 miles round trip, run 4 to 6 thousand miles a year on the trails from Houghton Lake to Mackinac, and should go down to Grayling and count because I don't know how many *cars and snowmobiles are in use each weekend?

I've spent a major portion of my free time here, spend a substantal part of my income on local taxes, and have no clue about how the locals feel..... because I'm a weekend warrior?

A personal watercraft is not a boat. Shame on me. A 30 year lakefront resident should know things like that.

Scarabs are definitely cool, but I'd take a Hemi in a Sanger flat bottom any day. Either could easily break Michigans speed limit on inland lakes, 55mph. Try running past a deputy on a popular inland lake with dry headers if you're feeling starved for attention.

The noise coming from the direction of the trail running along side my property is just my imagination. Probably just the wind. Something I should just live with?

Your right, I don't get it.

Later,
AL[/b][/quote]
Al,

What concerns me is the last paragraph in your last post and I Quote:

"The noise coming from the direction of the trail running along side my property is just my imagination. Probably just the wind. Something I should just live with?"

When I read this paragraph, *I have to go back through this entire thread. *Now think about this. * You have complained about Loud Pipes, *almost to the point of almost whining. *You were speaking of a Phantom Bill or at least helping to spread a Vicious Rumor *and You said that your concern was for the snowmobiling community, *to "Keep the trail system open and to be able to open new trails". * BUT THEN I READ THIS!!!
*http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

In my personal opinion, *I think you are possibly angry because snowmobile noise coming from the trail beside your property. * This is what I read into what you wrote. *I get the feeling from what you write, *that you were possibly trying to mislead us here. * That you were acting out of self interest, *and not speaking for the snowmobile community. * I get the feeling it's the sleds by your Vacation Home that may be bothering you. * *If so, *why didn't you just say this in the first place?

ZMachMan

ZMachMan

09-10-2002, 05:41 AM

And Al, *Unless you recieve Homestead Exemption on your property tax on the home you own up here, * you are *a Weekend Warrior. * That's just the way it is.

TallCool1

09-10-2002, 09:09 AM

I don't know what else to say....you missed the point w/a boat. *I don't care what kind of boat or motor you personally like, I'm talking about the noise here. *I'm sure your Hemi will produce a lot of noise too, so congratulations. *The "shame on me" and "being a 30 year lakefront resident" comment lead me to believe that you're taking some things personally, and shouldn't. *

Back to the point, that sort of recreation produces just as much, if not more, noise as sleds, and boaters are not talking about quieting their boats to better their sport. *So why should we restrict our choices of exhaust? *If you do that, there will just be another hurdle to clear that someone mistakenly thinks is the problem. *It will not SOLVE the land issue problems!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, if you live on this lake, how can you possibly survive w/all that noise for thirty years?http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

michahicks

09-10-2002, 10:25 AM

Jim,
It is you that has missed the point. I enjoy the noise. I'm a dyed in the wool gear head. I'm concerned about the loss of, and lack of new, trails, and what I can do about it.

AL

Machzzzz1

09-10-2002, 11:24 AM

michahicks- *Give me an honest answer.

Do you really feel that if there was no sleds with aftermarket exhausts that everyone would open up new trails and stop complaining?

You can live with people complaining about noise or you can fix the problem and live with a new one..

michahicks

09-10-2002, 11:58 AM

Honest answer- I believe that anyone not doing their best at presenting the best side of snowmobiling to non participants, is not doing all they can to promote the sport.

I believe that responses to this string that imply that noise levels make no difference in the fight to maintain existing trails, or the opening of new ones, is pure BS.

Lets not be silly. Of course there are no gaurantees. We are talking about one less reason for somebody to object to the opening of a new trail. With exhaust technology as it is today,
there is no good reason for this reason to exist.

AL

TallCool1

09-10-2002, 12:17 PM

Al, I guess what you can do about it is buy a 4-stroke (nothing against 4-strokes here guys, but it is the quietest sled out there) so you'll have one of the quietest sleds out there, and you'll feel good about your contribution to the land issues. *But where will you be when the other issues have to be dealt with: *sledders not staying on trails, leaving trash on trails, driving drunk, etc. *I guess you'll be standing by you're sled and saying "...but my sled is really quiet!"

I'll point out a few things here, then I'm done, unless I'm asked to respond.
1. *How many times have you ridden by a quarry, pit, or open
* *field near a trail w/signs that say "STAY ON TRAILS", only
* * to see hundreds of sled tracks in that area? *If you think
* * noise is a bigger issue than this, you're sadly mistaken.
2. *Al, throughout your posts when you're blaming noise, you
* * use words like "I think" or "I believe"...that's just what they
* * are, your thoughts. *You have not provided PROOF that
* * noise is the problem...it's just a scapegoat. *I challenge
* * you to find any person willing to give up something based
* * on someone else's thoughts. *Your opinions and thoughts
* * are yours, and there's nothing wrong with having them,
* * until you try to make them other people's thoughts too.
3. *Your quote..."Do you enjoy friends bringing along their
* * unruly kids...when they visit your home for a few hours?"
* * So I guess as long as those kids are quiet while they're
* * running around it's OK, right? *NO, it wouldn't. *You would
* * want them to behave, respect your property...same thing
* * with landowners and the communities that host these
* * trails.
4. *You never did answer my question...If everyone had
* * quieter exhausts, would our land issues would go away?
* * Please answer that one for me when you respond.

I'm just glad that you are not in a position to be making lawful decisions for the rest of us. *I do respect your views, but just can't believe how mislead you are here...to think less noise will solve all the issues. *As I said before, show me some PROOF that the majority of complaints against sledders is due to noisy exhausts, and I will change my view...I am open to change, when necessary. *Who knows, maybe one of us will have to help the other out on the trail some day. *Afterall, we do both love sledding, right?

Jim

ARCTICZRT600

09-10-2002, 01:19 PM

The small towns want the money snowmobiling brings in but they don't want the snowmobiles. * http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif *Go figure. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

maluchm

09-10-2002, 01:59 PM

Lots of revenue and lots of complaints. Maybe we should stay
home and just mail them our money. Funny, most of the time
on the trail conditions boards, it's the businesses that post and say the snow is deep and the groomers are running
non stop. Which 99% of the time is a flat out lie but it
sounds like they want us to come up there and spend our money to feed thier families. Take the good with the bad. If they want our money then obviously they need to put up with us weekend warriors in mass numbers. Like I said before, show respect, thank the groomers and make donations to help
preserve the winter wonder land that we have around here.
The sport/hobby has grown a lot in recent years and some
just need to deal with the change and adapt or stop thier
whining.

ARCTICZRT600

09-10-2002, 02:10 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (maluchm @ Sep. 10, 2002, 2:59pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lots of revenue and lots of complaints. Maybe we should stay
home and just mail them our money. Funny, most of the time
on the trail conditions boards, it's the businesses that post and say the snow is deep and the groomers are running
non stop. Which 99% of the time is a flat out lie but it
sounds like they want us to come up there and spend our money to feed thier families. Take the good with the bad. If they want our money then obviously they need to put up with us weekend warriors in mass numbers. Like I said before, show respect, thank the groomers and make donations to help
preserve the winter wonder land that we have around here.
The sport/hobby has grown a lot in recent years and some
just need to deal with the change and adapt or stop thier
whining.[/b][/quote]
I totally agree, I have had property in Lewiston, MI for 32 years now and I am still treated like an outsider. *For crying out loud, that is all my life, what more do they want from me, blood? http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

michahicks

09-10-2002, 02:14 PM

Jim, take a pill, sounds like you are getting a little wound up.

I did answer one of your questions. I said there were no gaurantees. Re read it friend. There are other problems to be sure. I'm only asking that we not add to the list, but to try and make it shorter.

Quiet, well behaved kids are a tribute to their parents, and are always welcome at my home.

I do have a question for you. Can you honestly tell me that you believe the extra noise from an aftermarket or modified exhaust sytem, that is noisier than stock, will not make a difference? If you believe it does not, would you support the idea that everyone should run one?

That was the question that started this whole thing, and everyone keeps tap dancing around it.

Not trying to play God here, or a lawmaker. I'm appealing to common sense for the benefit of all snowmobilers. If we can't agree to quiet things down, then act on it, we are going to lose the possibility of doing it voluntarily. It will be done for us (assuming it hasn't been done already). It'll just be a question of time. We've already been over examples of this in other sports. What more proof is necessary?

AL

maluchm

09-10-2002, 02:40 PM

We should be able to run what ever we want to run within the
legal limits of course. Know your surroundings and show
respect is all I'm saying. I guess we'll need to come up with a law
to remove all the bars and liquor stores at or near trails next huh?
If I had my choice betwene idiots I'd
pick the loud one over the drunk one on the trails. What'll
be next? Studs...then carbides..then?http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif No more sport
because there will be nothing left. I guess I'll get my
kicks before the whole $hit house goes up in flames. *J.M.

Funny, but call me weird, but I like the sounds of distant
sleds going through the trails. That alone gets my blood
pumping with exitement. And helps me fall a slepp at night.

I think that we need to redirect these passionate feelings
and opinions against the organizations that want to shut
everything down. This could turn into a real long debate
against each other (fellow sledders) or we can turn to the
people or organizations that want to ban sleds. And make
something productive out of this to fight for our rights.

TallCool1

09-10-2002, 02:49 PM

OK, one last time...

Al, thanks for your concern for my well-being, but I'm doing just fine, thank you!

As far as your answering my question, I guess I was posting mine the same time Machzzz1 was posting his....funny how two people had the same question for you, now isn't it. *So I apoligize for posting mine the same time he posted his...please forgive me.

My answer to your ?...I do not believe someone would complain about my af/mkt exhaust if they would not complain about the stock exhaust. *I believe if they are going to complain about my af/mkt exhaust, then they would probably complain about the stock exhaust. *You see, they both make a good bit of noise.

The second part of your question hardly deserves an answer after all these posts, but here you go.............I DON'T WANT TO TELL ANYONE ELSE WHAT TO RUN ON THEIR SLEDS!!!! *If my buddy wants to run quiet pipes, fine....if he doesn't, that's fine too.

Now, let me get off this merry-go-round. *Happy trails to all!

Jim

dooman

09-10-2002, 03:16 PM

wow, after 15 pages I think someone hit the nail on the head.I agree 100% Jim .if they are complaining about noise ,it really doesn't matter if your running stock or aftermarket exhaust they do not like any noise.

idooski

09-10-2002, 03:55 PM

hear, hear!!!! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

ZMachMan

09-10-2002, 03:58 PM

I agree, *you are 100% on Target Jim. * *

ZMachMan

ZMachMan

09-10-2002, 04:03 PM

Al,

Is the real reason for your Seemingly Hostile Tendencies, *towards loud pipes, *because you don't want the hear them at your own Cabin?

I was just wondering,
ZMachMan

DanR

09-10-2002, 04:06 PM

OK now does that mean end of story finaly ? ? ?

http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif * * * * http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif * * * * http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif * * * *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif * * * *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/exclamation.gif

ZMachMan

09-10-2002, 04:56 PM

Dan, *

I would agree it would need to end if it was stale, *but we are still pulling good facts from this thread! * Everythings cool. * There's not a limit to a thread size is there? http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif

Thanks for your patience!
ZMachMan

Mikadoo

09-10-2002, 06:08 PM

Ok!OK! We have beat this noise issue to death, so let's get back to the original question.
Is this going to be a law now or in the near future? Someone called it a "phantom bill" who said it was B.S.
Has anyone called or E-mailed Tom myers from MSA on this?
This is where I got the original info from I wish someone would call Myers on this and see if they have another story.
I agree that noise is a serious issue towards trail closure.
I also agree that we have rights to choose.
So where do we go from here?
I say, instead of bickering with fellow sledheads call the people that voice US in Washington and Lansing.....MSA

I will post their ph# and e-mail once again......
E-mail, tmyers61@msn.com.......ph. 989-752-8809

ZMachMan

09-12-2002, 05:18 AM

The Crankshop is now building a "Suitcase" style Muffler for their aftermarket pipes. * *I had the opportunity to start a sled with one and listen to it. * It is as Quiet or maybe even Quieter than stock. * The only problem is, *it is as big and heavy as the stock can also.

ZMachMan

michahicks

09-12-2002, 11:57 AM

ZmachMan, you crack me up. Hostile? If I were hostile, I can assure you that I would not have had the patience to stay with this as long as we have.

My 1600 sq ft "cabin", or it's proximity to the trail, have nothing to do with this. It only makes it convenient to the trail system.

Apparently, I am not able to express myself well enough for you to have come to either of these conclusions.

It also occurs to me that there are going to be people that are not going to agree with the concept we have dragged out so long. They do not believe noise makes a difference. This is why a comprehensive law is needed.

I'll repeat this one more time and I'm done. This is not about
me, and it's not about you, or what either of us like or dislike. It's about furthering the sport. Running an exhaust system, stock or aftermarket, that will pass a db test of whatever level the lawmakers feel is fair, now or in the future, is a pill I'd willingly take. Simple.

AL

ARCTICZRT600

09-12-2002, 12:03 PM

Is this post going to die or what!? http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

maluchm

09-12-2002, 03:57 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ARCTICZRT600 @ Sep. 12, 2002, 1:03pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this post going to die or what!? http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif[/b][/quote]
Or what!
Thanks for telling us about your feelings on the subject!
http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/baaa.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/baaa.gif
If you don't care about the topic or don't want to hear peoples opinions on it then simply don't look in the thread. It's that easy. I have an interest in it as well as michahicks and others although we may not agree it's still a topic that does deserves some conversation over at least. It
may seem to go around and around but there are some valid
points being brought up.

ARCTICZRT600

09-12-2002, 04:48 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (maluchm @ Sep. 12, 2002, 4:57pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ARCTICZRT600 @ Sep. 12, 2002, 1:03pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this post going to die or what!? http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif[/b][/quote]
Or what!
Thanks for telling us about your feelings on the subject!
http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/baaa.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/baaa.gif
If you don't care about the topic or don't want to hear peoples opinions on it then simply don't look in the thread. It's that easy. I have an interest in it as well as michahicks and others although we may not agree it's still a topic that does deserves some conversation over at least. It
may seem to go around and around but there are some valid
points being brought up.[/b][/quote]
The post doesn't bother me if you really need to know! *The part that bugs me is that it keeps getting off the main topic. *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif I don't see you jumping all over DanR for his opinion. *That is as much as I will dignify your response. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif

ZMachMan

09-12-2002, 07:09 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 12, 2002, 12:57pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ZmachMan, you crack me up. Hostile? If I were hostile, I can assure you that I would not have had the patience to stay with this as long as we have.

My 1600 sq ft "cabin", or it's proximity to the trail, have nothing to do with this. It only makes it convenient to the trail system.

Apparently, I am not able to express myself well enough for you to have come to either of these conclusions.

It also occurs to me that there are going to be people that are not going to agree with the concept we have dragged out so long. They do not believe noise makes a difference. This is why a comprehensive law is needed.

I'll repeat this one more time and I'm done. This is not about
me, and it's not about you, or what either of us like or dislike. It's about furthering the sport. Running an exhaust system, stock or aftermarket, that will pass a db test of whatever level the lawmakers feel is fair, now or in the future, is a pill I'd willingly take. Simple.

AL[/b][/quote]
Al,

Crack you up? *Who said you were Hostile? *What I said in my Post was that you posted, "seemingly Hostile Tendencies toward loud pipes". *How was that saying you were Hostile? *

Second, *what does the size of your Cabin have to do with loud pipes? * I don't understand..... *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I not only think you are having a hard time expressing yourself, *but also a hard time of interpreting what I am writing. * Please Al, *read it for what it is, *not for what you can put into it.

In regards to your last paragraph, *It seems that after nearly 200 posts on this subject matter, *that you are still willing to let the Government Stick Their Foot in our door. * Why would you do that? * Why would you not jump on the band wagon for more Law Enforcement on the trails. * If we had that, *then a lot of the problems on our trails might be solved. *

Al, *for the last time, *the problem on the trails, *is not about Noise. * Do you think if we had totally silenced snowmobiles on the trails that everything would then be peaches and cream? * Come on Al, *you are smarter than that..

ZMachMan

PS. * If we are somehow comparing house's now. *My cabin on the trail is over 3100 Sq ft. * My other two cabins on the trail are smaller at 2200 and 1500 ft, *respectively.

ZMachMan

09-12-2002, 07:13 PM

ARCTICZRT600 and Maluchum,

You guys need to shake hands and come out Snowmobiling! http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif * * Be cool guys, *we may all be riding together this winter! * *None of this is Personal, *we are just trying to find a common ground, *that's all.

ZMachMan http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

michahicks

09-12-2002, 08:29 PM

ZmachMan, You've sucked me in again.

My belief that loud pipers are counter productive to the sport is not hostile. It's realistic.

I've always refered to a cabin as a fairly small, 2 or 3 room structure. That's how I interpeted your statement regarding mine.

You've made reference to every comment I made other than the most important, the one indicating those that object loudest to the law (or whatever, let's not split hairs) or having to pass a db test of some sort, are the reason for it's existance (or proposal).

If sleds were silent, they wouldn't be as fun. Nor would they be causing as much trouble. That is where we differ, isn't it?
You seem to present the problems having to do with *snowmobiling and land use with an unusaul slant. I'm understanding you to say that you believe quiet (or silent) sleds won't fix all of the problems regarding snowmobiling, so noise shouldn't be considered a factor at all. With all due respect, I don't understand your logic.

Maybe it would help further our discussion if we listed what we believe are the problems regarding land use and snowmobiles. I know we could probably come up with a bunch of ideas, but am I to understand that noise would not be one of the factors on your list?

Everybody, it's obvious I am fasinated with ZmachMan's views on this topic and appreciate any patience that's been required on your parts. It is long and drawn out, and it appears that neither ZmachMan or myself are going to wear out any time soon. I beg your indulgance, and encourage any well thought out comments. Moderators - If you feel the need, go ahead and shut us down. No offense will be taken on my part. We are obviously using a lot of bandwidth and not making a lot of progress. *If we feel the need beyond that, we'll figure it out....

Thanks,
AL

Steven Hohman

09-12-2002, 09:56 PM

You guys are too funny, first someone uses a word that some other person took offense to it and blah blah blah......The real deal is that Noise is noise, if you don't like it, buy some better windows and more insulation for your house *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif , Just kidding though, I believe pipes/silencers/etc.. should be allowed as long as they are under a certain decibel limit set by the state, as all types of off road vehicles should be (including boats).

Steven Hohman

09-12-2002, 10:01 PM

As for non-snowmobiler (snowmobiling area restaraunts/lodging/trail systems etc..) Ask them to pick either the large amt. of revenue with some noises, or no noise without any revenue (besides those cross-country skiers, I always laugh at them on the side of the trail as I slowly pass them). Let them pick, I'm sure they are greedy and don't know how much we actually put into their local economies.

polcat715

09-13-2002, 12:04 AM

In mn they have put restrictions on stud uses. Think about yellowstone *They are slowly trying and taking everything from us. As for the exhaust, we should be alowed to run stock or after market as long as its with in legal db levels. my 2cents

ZMachMan

09-13-2002, 06:40 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (polcat715 @ Sep. 13, 2002, 01:04am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In mn they have put restrictions on stud uses. Think about yellowstone *They are slowly trying and taking everything from us. As for the exhaust, we should be alowed to run stock or after market as long as its with in legal db levels. my 2cents[/b][/quote]

Polcat715,

That is my point. *I don't feel we have a need to invite the tree huggers into our sport, by offering any type of sacrifice(Pipes). * Like I have said many times, *let them put their foot in the door, *Or give them an Inch, *and then see what happens. * *

If this ever does happen, *remember back to this post and then think about why I was so adamant about this thread. *

ZMachMan.....

revrnd

09-13-2002, 06:58 AM

ZMachman:

Were you around in the early days of the sport when the ignition systems of the day caused massive TV interference? That was one of the major complaints of the day from non-snowmobilers. The OEMsworked on theproblem & now TVI is just a distant memory.

Maybe if sledders & the aftermarket work w/ the government noisy sleds won't be a problem.

Here in Ontario w/ around 30 fatalities a year, the snowmobile industry is saying we had better clean up our act (drink & riding) or the government will do it for us.

After a terrible season in the Sudbury area where they had EIGHT fatalities in the city limits, it was discussed about having a Snowmobile operators license like the motorcycles.

To sum things up, I enjoy going to see the NHRA & NASCAR guys run, but I don't think my Monte has to sound like them. So why should you think you can run a loud sled on the trails? What kind of exhaust do you run?

jwheeler

09-13-2002, 07:11 AM

it keeps going and going and going http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ZMachMan

09-13-2002, 07:11 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 12, 2002, 9:29pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ZmachMan, You've sucked me in again.

My belief that loud pipers are counter productive to the sport is not hostile. It's realistic.

I've always refered to a cabin as a fairly small, 2 or 3 room structure. That's how I interpeted your statement regarding mine.

You've made reference to every comment I made other than the most important, the one indicating those that object loudest to the law (or whatever, let's not split hairs) or having to pass a db test of some sort, are the reason for it's existance (or proposal).

If sleds were silent, they wouldn't be as fun. Nor would they be causing as much trouble. That is where we differ, isn't it?
You seem to present the problems having to do with *snowmobiling and land use with an unusaul slant. I'm understanding you to say that you believe quiet (or silent) sleds won't fix all of the problems regarding snowmobiling, so noise shouldn't be considered a factor at all. With all due respect, I don't understand your logic.

Maybe it would help further our discussion if we listed what we believe are the problems regarding land use and snowmobiles. I know we could probably come up with a bunch of ideas, but am I to understand that noise would not be one of the factors on your list?

Everybody, it's obvious I am fasinated with ZmachMan's views on this topic and appreciate any patience that's been required on your parts. It is long and drawn out, and it appears that neither ZmachMan or myself are going to wear out any time soon. I beg your indulgance, and encourage any well thought out comments. Moderators - If you feel the need, go ahead and shut us down. No offense will be taken on my part. We are obviously using a lot of bandwidth and not making a lot of progress. *If we feel the need beyond that, we'll figure it out....

Thanks,
AL[/b][/quote]
Al,

Think about this very long and hard. * The majority of *times, *when *pipes get loud and obnoxious, *is when the throttle is pinned to the bars. * I have came through DRN check points and they have never questioned my pipes, *ever. * That is because I TRAIL RIDE, *the trails. * Now on the other hand, *get a Arctic Cat Rider, with PSI Modblasters, *Pinning the throttle on the trails, *trying to impersonate Blair Morgan, *and then you have a problem. *So, *I think aftermarket pipes, *used on the trails, *by a rider that has common sense, Courtesy, *and respect for other riders, *should be allowed to do so.

So Al, *what is the solution? * Is the solution to ban all aftermarket pipes, *and condemn the innocent, *courteous, respectful riders, who like to use them? * Or is the solution to add more Law Enforcement on our trail system, *to bust Mr. Racer Wannabe who is showing no common sense, * no courtesy or *no respect for the rest of us Law Abiding Citizens?

There are two avenues to take here. * But I ask you why, *should the users of Aftermarket pipes, *have to suffer the consequences of those Trail Racer Wannebe's. * You said, *and I Quote: " *My belief that loud pipers are counter productive to the sport is not hostile. It's realistic." *Is it realistic? *Is it? * This winter, *I would like to find what you would consider, *a really loud sled. * *Then I would like to see if the owner would let me ride it, *with you following for a while. * *Then you would probably see, * that it's not the pipes, *but the guy pinning the throttle. * *

I know your not going to like this next statement, *but here goes. * *"Do we ban guns, *because somebody pulled the trigger? * *Or do we take care of the triggerman? * *What I am saying, *is more Law Enforcement is needed to take care of the Blair Morgan Wannebe's. * *If this was to happen, *then we might be getting somewhere. * With all respect, *I think your thoughts on this subject, *would just be condemning the innocent.

ZMachMan

ZMachMan

09-13-2002, 07:36 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (revrnd @ Sep. 13, 2002, 07:58am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ZMachman:

Were you around in the early days of the sport when the ignition systems of the day caused massive TV interference? That was one of the major complaints of the day from non-snowmobilers. The OEMsworked on theproblem & now TVI is just a distant memory.

Maybe if sledders & the aftermarket work w/ the government noisy sleds won't be a problem.

Here in Ontario w/ around 30 fatalities a year, the snowmobile industry is saying we had better clean up our act (drink & riding) or the government will do it for us.

After a terrible season in the Sudbury area where they had EIGHT fatalities in the city limits, it was discussed about having a Snowmobile operators license like the motorcycles.

To sum things up, I enjoy going to see the NHRA & NASCAR guys run, but I don't think my Monte has to sound like them. So why should you think you can run a loud sled on the trails? What kind of exhaust do you run?[/b][/quote]
Rev,

That's my entire point. * Read my last post to Al. * I won my first Drag Racing Trophy In 1973. * So I do remember when the snowmobiles wrecked our TV Reception. * And it usually happened when I was watching The Beverly Hillbilly's or Andy Griffith! * *lol

In answer to your question, *I use Crankshop Trail Pipes with Trail Tips. * Just ask all the guys on this forum that I ride with, *if my pipes are obnoxious? * Please, *just ask them.
Now don't get me wrong, * I could make them obnoxious, *but Again, *it's the respect, and common sense factor. * *

I know you asked, * Why did I think I should be able to run loud sleds on the trails. *Where did you come up with that? * I never run loud sleds on the trails, nor did I ever say I condoned Excessively loud pipes on the trails. * Let keep the facts straight? * Your more than welcome to ride with me, *then you could make an accurate determination about my sleds and their noise levels. *Anything else is pure speculation. *

Your comparison to NHRA and Nascar is unfair and unjust. * Nascar and NHRA are 800HP+ Motors with NO Mufflers or silencers of any type. *What does that have to do with snowmobiles? * I don't see the comparison. *Sorry. *

I race on the track, *I do not feel the need to race on the trails. * *Nor do I appreciate anyone else who does, *when my family and I are trail riding. * *Any of you out there who rides the trails at breakneck speeds, *please ask yourself, *Would you want me riding at 70 MPH+ with-in a few feet of your loved ones? * Think about it. * *Every year there a at least two Killed Right by my house on snowmobiles. * I see the Ambulance and Police cars go by with the Rescue Squad. * I see the body bags being pulled out on the sleds *and *SPEED and/or Alcohol is always the Factor. * I don't remember anyone being killed by loud pipes. * Maybe the priorities are not in order here. * *Just a thought...............

ZMachMan

BUTCH800

09-13-2002, 08:01 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it's not the pipes, but the guy pinning the throttle[/b][/quote]I think someone hit the nail on the head. 99 times out of 100 it's some horse's hind-end showing off to his buddy's..... making a scene. I don't really hear alot of loud sleds on the trails, but have noticed a few in hotel parking lots and gas stations. The loudness doesn't bother me in the least. In fact I think it's kind of nice to be able to hear if someone is coming up behind you or passing you on the trail. Many times I've had the "you-know-what" scared out of me. It's the moron who thinks he needs to do snow cross off the snowbanks and ride 50 mph in the parking lot that really grinds me http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Also those who think they need to blaze trail through someones front yard, very disrespectful, and I wouldn't blame any land owner who got mad over that. I don't know how long any of you have lived or had a cabin close to the trail. But, I always laugh at the people that move into a house near an airport, train tracks, or main highway and complain about the noise from the planes, trains, and autos. Who or what was here first?Sounds silly to me, not to check the surroundings of where you want to live.

michahicks

09-13-2002, 12:00 PM

ZmachMan,
Geez, give the world a little credit. If your pipes aren't noisey,
they'll pass a db test. If they won't pass the test, THEY ARE NOISEY. I have nothing but envy for the guy running a good set of pipes that make no more noise than the stock ones did.
I'm not against the idea of running anything aftermarket, if they won't be considered any noisier than stock and can pass whatever sound level test is approved.

You're right, I don't believe guns or any of the worlds other problems are relevant to this conversation.

The law needs to be there to allow enforcement when necessary. If your pipes were noisey when you went through the DNR checkpoint, they would not have been able to do anything about it other than a finger wagging. If we get some kind of control in place, they can do something, when and if they feel it's necessary.

We are in complete agreement on the safety issues you mention.

AL

ZMachMan

09-13-2002, 12:21 PM

Al,

You sound like your a lobbyist against loud pipes. * You say give the world a little credit and I say give the owners of Aftermarket pipes a little credit. * I am not going to change my mind on this subject, *unless you can show me where I am wrong. * To this point, *I think you have failed miserably. I believe that everyone should have the right to choice. * Al, *you can ride with stock pipes if you choose, and other should be able to ride with aftermarket pipes if they choose.

It is my personal opinion, *that the people such as yourself, *that think they are trying to make the future of snowmobiling better for all of us, *by letting the Government stick their foot in the door, *are sadly mistaken. * *Believe me, *I applaud your valient effort, *but I think you are channeling your efforts in the wrong direction. * Hopefully you will realize this before it's too late, *and we all are forced to become cross country skiers, *to enjoy the winter.

michahicks

09-13-2002, 02:55 PM

I am lobbying against loud pipes, for reasons we've already gone over, quite a few timess now.

Make me understand what you mean when you *say *"aftermarket". *Do you mean noisey? Possibly something that won't pass whatever they come up with for a maximum sound level?

I don't want to be antagonistic. I'm sorry you don't want to recognize the problem. You aren't the only one. Which has been my point from the beginning. The law is needed to force the issue.

The same level of performance is available from reasonably quiet pipes that are no louder than stock. What possible benefit can be gained by the use of noisey ones?

AL
AL

ARCTICZRT600

09-13-2002, 03:05 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 13, 2002, 3:55pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Make me understand what you mean when you *say *"aftermarket". *Do you mean noisey? Possibly something that won't pass whatever they come up with for a maximum sound level?[/b][/quote]
Aftermarket doesn't mean noise. *There are such things as quiet cans. *Fast makes them for one.

ZMachMan

09-13-2002, 03:38 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Sep. 13, 2002, 3:55pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am lobbying against loud pipes, for reasons we've already gone over, quite a few timess now.

Make me understand what you mean when you *say *"aftermarket". *Do you mean noisey? Possibly something that won't pass whatever they come up with for a maximum sound level?

I don't want to be antagonistic. I'm sorry you don't want to recognize the problem. You aren't the only one. Which has been my point from the beginning. The law is needed to force the issue.

The same level of performance is available from reasonably quiet pipes that are no louder than stock. What possible benefit can be gained by the use of noisey ones?

AL
AL[/b][/quote]
Al,

So your a Anti-Snowmobile Lobbyist. * *Well that about does it. * To me what you just said, *was that you are lobbying against Snowmobiling. * You are lobbying to let them get their foot in the door. * You are lobbying to let them take over our sport. *

You say the Law is needed to "FORCE THE ISSUE". *I bet the Tree Huggers would give you an award for that statement. *I think the Idea behind Communism was to "Force The Issue". * *Well guess what, *Communism didn't work. * *

Sorry Al, *but my invitation for a Burger has been cancelled. *No hard feelings, *but, * I don't ride with anyone who would intentionally do anything to harm our sport.

Please, *no response is necessary.

ZMachMan

Sled Dogg

09-13-2002, 04:01 PM

Some one please pull the Energizers out of this one. Dam I thought it was going to end so many times.
Caleb

revrnd

09-13-2002, 04:43 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BUTCH800 @ Sep. 13, 2002, 09:01am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it's not the pipes, but the guy pinning the throttle[/b][/quote]I think someone hit the nail on the head. 99 times out of 100 it's some horse's hind-end showing off to his buddy's..... making a scene.[/b][/quote]
I have to agree w/ this 100%. It's hard to tell w/o hearing a sled if it is loud or not, so I'll take your word Zmachman. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Idiots on loud sleds tar the snowmobile community w/ the same brush as the morons that go thru thin ice & drown in December. Non-snowmobilers hear one loud sled & figure we're all like that. The respective state/provincial associations, OEMs & the aftermarket have to educate riders, & the governments about this issue.

The reason I brought up the NHRA & NASCAR is as follows. Some moron figures that because Blair Morgan's Open Class is loud & fast, if he runs a noisy exhaust, his sled will be fast too. Now, the NASCAR connection, if I was an idiot, I might think that because Jr's Monte is fast & loud, I should run a loud exhaust on mine.

On this last note, what do you guys think of the 4 cylinder "tuners" that buzz around the streets? They are great to listen to going up & down thru the gears at 1 AM (sarcasm) Police in the Greater Toronto Area are clamping down on these cars for unsafe modifications to the chassis & emission systems.

I'm all in favour of allowing aftermarket pipes, cans, etcetera if they are within a set decibel limit. If you drill out a OEM muffler to defeat its purpose & it ends up noisier, you shouldn't look for sympathy if you're ticketed.

Steven Hohman

09-13-2002, 05:03 PM

I can say that there should not be a law, but manufacturers should be pressured to make pipes that give decent HP gain as well as keeping the unwanted blazing noise down.

Steven Hohman

09-13-2002, 05:06 PM

I'm with Tim now, I've realized that if you give them an inch, they'll take a foot, who's to keep pipes from changing into restriced areas that sleds can't go into due to the noise that seems to "scare" all the wildlife? *We can't let them have an inch.

Oh, and sorry for sparking up the fire, no need for a responce THIS time.

polcat715

09-13-2002, 06:24 PM

Im confused a bit everyone keeps talking about loud pipes, thats not what this possible law is about its about banning all aftermarket pipes/muffles alltogether *loud and quiet anything not stock. *I can understand having a regulation for noise but not for what we can and cant use on our sleds.

Machzzzz1

09-16-2002, 07:47 AM

LOL. *Michahicks.

Zman got in his truck with 44inch tires and backed over you about 10 times with his last award winning post. LOL.

Not to want people to get annoyied and mad because of loud pipes and lobbying against them are too diffrent things. *

THat was a very hard comment. *Zman is right with sledders talking like that are sport wont go very far. *

I agree that there should be a set DB level and all pipes including stock and aftermarket will have to come under that unless there racing pipes used only on a track, *None of this stupid anything other then stock is against the law. *

But i dont want to put the lobbyiest or greenies in the drivers seat and hand them the keys to our sport. *Were in charge and will make the responcible disisions with out there uneducated influence. *

Both of you guys have made great points and if you both read them over and meat up with an agreement half way i think it would satisfy most everyone.. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

TallCool1

09-16-2002, 09:12 AM

Hey mods, how about a spell-check option for our posts...I think the case has just been made for one. * http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif
Machzzzz, I think you need to stand a little further away from the exhaust pipe, and open the garage door once in a while. *LOL

PS...I know I said I wouldn't post here again, but I just couldn't resist this! *Besides, I didn't really touch the issue this time.

Jim

UNCLEBUCK

09-16-2002, 09:29 AM

This is an emotional issue,and my family and I are new to the sport,so Ill keep this nice and friendly,#1.snowmobilers are a small group,compared to the general pop.that leads to a larger % of the public that either dont know,or care about this geat sport,all they know is what they hear,literally,from and about us,so when the issue of noise comes up,in general conversation,or on the ballot,I belive they will react negatively,unfortunetly it's human nature to fear that which you do not understand,so we have to present a positive,educated,united front to the majority of the public that does not participate in this sport,because they will make their feelings known on the ballot,whether they know what the facts are or not,in a democracy,freedom is what the majority says it will be,period.And unfortunetely the antis are very loud(ironic huh?)and they want to tell all of us how to live, because they are anal retentive and over the top about all issues ( hunting,fishing,guns,etc.) is beside the point,they are getting their misinformation out,so i believe we must do like they do,but present the truth,that snowmobilers are conscientious,safe,law abiding people that just want to enjoy this great sport,and that we will *defend it!WHEW!#2 From a performance standpoint,many aftermarket pipes are making gains in H.P.while staying relatively quiet,yet still being deep and throaty,so we've got that going for us,which is nice * http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif,so we should see that they stay legal ,sometimes comprimise is best,not always easy though *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif .It does'nt take much publicity to elicit an negative response from the voting public,(one awsh## wipes out a thousand ataboys)so we'll always seem to have the difficult path,it'll be even more difficult if we continue to argue amongst ourselves,we all have our opinion,but ultimately what is best for the sport?Sorry about the length,its hard to be brief about this subject.Think snow! * *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif