How many think the phasing out of the triple could be a dealer influenced thing? *I know triples can be a pain to work on, do you think they are telling the makers that they are pushing twins?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ARCTICZRT600 @ Sep. 10, 2002, 1:50pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*I know triples can be a pain to work on?[/b][/quote]
ARCTICZRT600

Please explain? * I work on Triples all the time. * What do you mean they are harder to work on. I really don&#39;t understand. * Personally I think the twins are more difficult to work on. * And I wrench on sleds year around. *

I don&#39;t think that it is the dealers. * I think it is because the MFG&#39;s can build a cheaper Sled (Twin) and get near the same price for it as they would the triple. * It&#39;s all about $$$$

But that is just my humble opinion.

ZMachMan

For instance, I found it alot easier to rip my carbs out of my EX-98 ZR600 than it is to rip them out of my 96 ZRT.

I think alot has to do with the "you-don&#39;t-want-a-triple" propoganda that was plastered everywhere the last 6 years.

That may be, *but I find it easier to remove a Rack of Flatslides from a Mach Z, *then to remove a set of carbs from a Twin. * *

Maybe it&#39;s just what we get used to doing. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif * After all, *we are creatures of habit!

ZMachMan

in the manufacturing world it is all about the profits like zmachman said.just the bottom line to the bean counters.

Has any of the other mfr&#39;s quit maiking triples altogether?? *It&#39;s too bad Cat couldn&#39;t adjust their costs to keep the triples going. *I was looking through some of my &#39;01 magazines the other day, and Cat had already given up on their triples, even though they were still producing theirs. *There were no advertisements at all in 3 straight issues for Cat&#39;s triples. *They didn&#39;t stand a chance to survive. *They quit promoting them one year, so the next year they could say sales were down the prev. year, using that as their excuse to quit production. *All the ads for Cat were for the ZR&#39;s...don&#39;t get me wrong, I like my ZR, but would like to have the choice to buy a triple if I wanted to. *I think the triples will come back, just my .02. *I mean, the ZR900 is a great sled, but how does Cat think they can drop 22 hp off their biggest sled and keep people happy?

BTW, what are the triple models offered this year by each
brand?

There were plenty of advertisements for the Thunder Cat jim. They were alwaus emphizing the 1000cc and SS rear skid.
Caleb

Maybe so Caleb, but I sure didn&#39;t notice them in the ones I was flipping through.

All that&#39;s left is; XCR800, MachZ, Viper, & MM700, not sure if Yamaha still has their 600. *Looks like they&#39;re all on the way out.

WHAT DEMISE.

Triples still have a market in certain parts of canada especially around lakes. *They are the best trail riding sled engine out there.

There not harder to work on and even if they were, The whole idea is for them not to break. *Im around my dealer all the time and i almost never see a sled inthere for repaire and when there is a sled its not a big deal.

Im thinking of opening up a dealer and working on triples would not be a problem.

once you get used to working on triples, it&#39;s as easy as working with twins. Like machzzzz1 mentioned, the sales and usse of the triple are fare gratter than twins near the lakes. I live in a region that has not many lakes but rather bumps, big hills and lot&#39;s of corners and curves, and I would say that more than 95% of the sled that are sold here are twins because we don&#39;t have many lakes or straight lines.I know that because I work at a dealer. If it was because the triple was to complicated to work on, why did yamy come out with a 4 cylindre. *In the future, will they cut out the twins to make mono&#39;s too? http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *No, the big thing behing this is $$$$$$$$
Why make a more expensive sled, when you can make a cheaper sled and sell them for the same price? That is the new MFR&#39;S policy. *Well Like an old french saying says "qui vivera, verra"

Yup. *I agree

beacuse no one can make a 2+ cyl motor like Yamaha.

yamaha makes tanks for sleds (some of us like that...)

but clearly they are the kings of 2+ cylinder motors.

the other oems are smart enough to do what they do best. With SD, POO and AC -- twins are what they know best! Stick with it,!

check out the SD 800 SDI motor, looks to be a REAL winner!

just my 2

Rotax is the king of motors. *Whether its 2, 1, 6, or 3 cylinders if it says rotax on it you better watch out. *

Im not saying yamaha makes bad motors. *Im just saying that the 809 rotax triple is well withen the league of the 700 srx and viper motor. *

If skidoo would just do a little tinkering on the 809 it would be very feirce, but the engine remains practicly the same since it came out in 1997 or 1996. *(Maybe im wrong with the date). *The Srx engine has been changed in 2000 for more power. *They also had a few crank problems. *Have a detonation sensor, electronic exhaust valves and a heated carbs. *

Except for DPM which just dials in the carbs for bang on jetting. *But the 809 does not have a detonation sensor, if it did i imagine that it could be tuned a lot closer to the line and made to have more power.

If you asked me the 809 is a better triple then anyother triple evermade and im sure there are a few if not many that would agree with me.

JMO

If Yamaha had a few crank problems, how may did ski-doo have with the 809?

HMMMM http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif

How about a retweaked SD 809 from Rotax? Now I think that
would rip considering the current 809 is a power house that
can be easily modded to make some more serious HP.

i think what it comes down to is ; if they can sell you a twin for the same price as a tripple and put more $$ in there pockets and still make you feel good about it why not?............lol http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Because I want a triple and not a twin. I&#39;m positive I&#39;m not
alone on this. If they&#39;re selling twins for the same price
as the twins, I think many a are getting jipped out by about
a 1/3rd. *LOL *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

If triples were not wanted then why would Polaris still make the XCR800?

I love my triple - its kinda of like a small block chevy. with all the rice cars and 4-6s out, I will want my good ol&#39; V8. *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZMachMan @ Sep. 10, 2002, 2:54pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ARCTICZRT600 @ Sep. 10, 2002, 1:50pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*I know triples can be a pain to work on?[/b][/quote]
ARCTICZRT600

Please explain? * I work on Triples all the time. * What do you mean they are harder to work on. I really don&#39;t understand. * Personally I think the twins are more difficult to work on. * And I wrench on sleds year around. *

I don&#39;t think that it is the dealers. * I think it is because the MFG&#39;s can build a cheaper Sled (Twin) and get near the same price for it as they would the triple. * It&#39;s all about $$$$

But that is just my humble opinion.

ZMachMan[/b][/quote]
Looks like you&#39;ve hit the nail on the head right there ZMachMan. *It&#39;s all about profit margins, but not only from a manufacturing point of view. *

In terms of warranty, servicing cost and servicing time, the twins win every time. *I&#39;ve discussed this at length several times on other boards. *Any way you look at it, you&#39;ve still got "one extra" everything and that adds time and money at every level. *Even at the shipping level, imagine the weight difference between a ZRT600 and an F7 in the crate. *

I personally like triples too, but I seriously doubt you&#39;ll see the current ones make a comeback, sadly. *If Ski-doo could wake up the triple market by issuing an 809HO (like they did with the 600HO), they could really send the market on it&#39;s ear. *Not everybody in the high-end segment wants a 4-stroke, especially after seeing the RX-1 race against two-stroke 600cc twins in the drags. *

Come on Ski-doo, I know one of your monkeys is watching this post. *Drop an 809HO in a competent chassis and people will buy thousands. *Now that AC is gone, Yamaha has a pussycat of an RX-1 and Polaris has only the old and beaten on XCR800, you could really grab some market share here. *Do you really think Quebecers and other areas with long, flat and fast trails want a REV? *Give them some HP played from three tuned pipes and you&#39;ll see what they really want.

-Rob

It&#39;s already been stated pretty well but I&#39;ll echo that it comes down to $. *Let&#39;s face it, these companies are in business to make a profit. *Sure, winning races and being the fastest or quickest has something to do with that, but in the end the question is "how are we going to hit our revenue projections." *Being a mild-mannered marketing manager by day I can tell you that they examine things like market-segments, profit potential and return-on-investment very closely.

If you can sell just as many (actually more) twins, which obviously cost less to produce but fetch roughly the same price as a triple, a growth-minded company will do just that. *I&#39;m only guessing here but I&#39;m sure you can find a segment-manager from one of the big-4 that will tell you that 85% of snowmobilers don&#39;t use twin/triple as their primary purchase decision.

Again, it&#39;s just a matter of making a sound business decision.

Yeah I&#39;ve seen it many times in my line of work. Quality and
or function takes a back seat to what the "Bean counters"
want to happen. It&#39;s really a shame that what seems like all
the OEM&#39;s want to produce soully on profit margin and don&#39;t
seem to care what thier consumer wants. Looks like we&#39;ll
have 4-strokes beat down our throats soon. But then again,
that&#39;s four of everything compared to only two now. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I&#39;m thuroughly convinced that, for example, if SDoo put the
triple in the ZX chassis, at least they&#39;d sell some units and make some $$$.
Especially after hearing the first reports on the new high performance 4-stroke
that has come out. *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif But the RX-1 still does deserve probably one season
to try to prove itself. After all, it is a new concept that is revolutionary in it&#39;s own aspect.

If the triple was so great, they would have continued to sell. *Manufacturers will make what will sell period. *Yes it&#39;s cheaper to build 2-strokes and the price reflects that. For instance; compare prices of an mxz 800 to the machZ, alot more cash for the machZ. *So don&#39;t think they are shoving twins down our throats because they make more money. *They make more money because they sell more twins.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Sep. 12, 2002, 1:03pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the triple was so great, they would have continued to sell. *Manufacturers will make what will sell period. *[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t know about where you are at but if you didn&#39;t buy your triple around here by Oct. you could forget about it but, you could still find twins the following year. *hmm http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

I&#39;m sure that as with any manufacturer there is a core group of engineers and others that are enthusiasts as well and would like nothing more than to build the baddest combinations they can imagine. *Sometimes these groups get their way even if the product has limited appeal, if it accomplishes an image goal and positions the company to bolster their image, look at the Grand National, Viper and Mustang Cobra.

But the Big-4 are interested in growing, while producing a good product of course. *All indistries grow and evolve, or die. *As for the RX-1 and 4-stokes in general, we may all look back in 10 years and wonder why we liked 2-strokes at all. *I think they have a lot of potential to significantly improve our sport. *I remember reading an article that the 50&#39;s hot rod crowd was shocked when Ford discontinued the Flathead, they said that performance as they had known it was doomed, indeed it was - thankfully. *Hopefully our fears will come to the same end. *Ever ride a GSXR or a 1000cc Ninja? *I have http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *A radically different clutch system and an RX-1 may need to pull off 2 plug wires so us triple riders can keep up, lol. *I for one am bummed that the triples are going away, but hopeful that our fears are the same as those that once raced Flatheads and thought they were fast.

Because there were alot more twins to begin with. *My dealer sells Doo, Polaris and Yamaha. *He had zero pre-season orders for both the MachZ and XCR-800. *He picked up Yamaha last fall, so he couldn&#39;t pre-season order any. *Because he was a new dealer to Yami, they supplied him with a number of Vipers and a couple SRX&#39;s. *He had some of both leftover this season.

Last year we had the same topic. It is very obviouse that people want there triples back. I stated last season that if A/C dropped the triples I would by a DOO. I still stick with that comment!!
As for the "Marketing directors" they really don&#39;t have a finger on the pulse of what the consumer really wants. There are a thousand examples of manufacturers failing because of marketing decisions.
If these marketing people would poll the whole snomobiling industry they would find what we the consumer actually wanted.
I am 33 year old sales engineer. I do not want a small light twin. I want a higher powered triple!! I don&#39;t rip through the trails. I trail ride and lake race!! Tell me how a Twin can do both. It cant!!!
Snomobiling is a very expensive sport and in most cases the consumer buying a new machine is an over 30 proffesional not a 18 year old with mom and dads $.
The manufacturers tell us tripples are heavy, expensive and hard to work on. This a complete contradiction!!
Have any of you worked on a 4 stroke!! That is what the manufactures want us to by. So eventually say goodby to the twins. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (atyszka @ Sep. 12, 2002, 1:24pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Grand National, Viper and Mustang Cobra.[/b][/quote]
Look at the price of these three also. *I&#39;m in sales, trust me, if there is a market, it will be built.

Then where were all the XCR-800&#39;s, MachZ&#39;s and thundercats last year taxi? *I made 4 trips to the UP last year and never saw another machZ on 3 of the trips. *Mine was a 99, Black with yellow accents. *I can&#39;t tell you how many people complimented its looks and then they would ask if it was a mid season release for Doo. *I remember stopping at one bar and counting 33 mxz&#39;s out of maybe 60 sleds!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Sep. 12, 2002, 1:29pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (atyszka @ Sep. 12, 2002, 1:24pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Grand National, Viper and Mustang Cobra.[/b][/quote]
Look at the price of these three also. *I&#39;m in sales, trust me, if there is a market, it will be built.[/b][/quote]
Hey Dan, I agree. *Oblivously none of us can be sure since we don&#39;t sit in any of their meetings, but I would guess that if they&#39;re discontinuing the production of a product it&#39;s because it&#39;s not selling the way their board/owners want. *There are quite a few of us in these forums that want/demand triples. *But I would expect that we must be a small market segment or the manufacturers would be releasing new triples instead of new twins.

PS when are you picking up that bad boy?

I would like to see them build a 2,3 and 4 cylinder engines. But if you look at the history of most sled companies they have always banked on the 500 to 600 market for there main sales. Upper end is just a small portion of there total sales. Now as far as working on them goes to me its no different then anything else just a few more parts. Now if you really want to get radical lets see some 4 cylinder 2 stroke engines!!

Art, it should be here in the next week or so.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BGTRK19472 @ Sep. 12, 2002, 1:48pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now if you really want to get radical lets see some 4 cylinder 2 stroke engines!![/b][/quote]
I saw a one over the weekend at the MSDRA grass drags. It
appeared to be four 670 jugs And quad piped! I don&#39;t know
the actual CC of it but it was a laydown heavy mod that just
looked down right MEAN! They had one in the Cudney camp that
was three 670&#39;s I believe.

It&#39;s also my opinion that every one is buying the twins
because they&#39;re the one advertised, they are the ones going
in the new chassis and a lot of the twin buyers are weekend
snow-xer&#39;s.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mighty RX-1 @ Sep. 12, 2002, 1:03pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the triple was so great, they would have continued to sell. *Manufacturers will make what will sell period. *Yes it&#39;s cheaper to build 2-strokes and the price reflects that. For instance; compare prices of an mxz 800 to the machZ, alot more cash for the machZ. *So don&#39;t think they are shoving twins down our throats because they make more money. *They make more money because they sell more twins.[/b][/quote]
Price difference is because they want to phase out the
triple most likely due to tooling and manufacturing costs.
When&#39;s the last time you saw the triple sleds advertised
like they do the twins?

As far as SDoo.....the REV is here and is a huge success
already so now what? Spend a little bit of time to please
the other big majority of the market like revamping the
3X3 into a new chassis. That&#39;s what I&#39;m hoping for. And yes,
I do think that they are shoving the twins down our throats
for reasons that have already been stated. By the way, what
was/is the big problem with the triple since you say that it
isn&#39;t so great? Last year it sounded like you thought
your triple was great.

the only reason the auto makers build those "supercars" is because they have a very diverse line of autos that sell.there for one division makes more profits than the others.snowmobile manufacturers do not have this luxury. you can count on this there is a market for triples but they will not make them if they cannot make money doing it,does not matter if you or I want them.I work in a big manufacturing plant and I can tell you its the bottom line to the bean counters,and they make the calls.how much more are you willing to pay to have the triple,really?look at the price of the rev 800x 7,999 u.s., machz 9,599 list.I can bet the profit on the rev is much higher than the mach.see they try and get the high profit margin stuff to sell the most,this I know from being inside a trans plant that builds over 7,500 transmissions a day.