I have posted this in other sections with no help, so maybee if I ask everybody I can get some response.

First, what issues would arise (if any) for replacing my skid frame shocks with a solid piece of metal (for ice racing only).

Second, I want to know if most people drop down a tooth on top for racing. If I do this what is the general clutch adjustment. It seems to me maybee slightly heavier weight (I have adjustable ones, so I could add a gram or so) Or maybee just move the secondary spring hole position.

The sled is a 2000 T-cat.

Thanks

I think if you were to do the solid piece of metal you may find you will get damaging vibrations through the whole machine , even though it is only for ice , there is no give at all . JMO. As for you other question , i'm not sure , I will be watching this post so I can find out to . lol. Good luck

I have read in the 'doo racing manual that the oval guys use a chain or strap looped around the suspension to "shorten" it. There is still some travel, but it is limited.

I have used limiter straps on the front and rear suspension for ice racing.

I also installed spacers in the shocks to shorten the lengths. Now I have some old Fox units that I got for DIRT cheap and since the working length is shorter I would just install those if time allows, if not, strap it down....

I used the front springs off a 96 ZRT 600 since they are shorter.

When you strap it down you will have to back off on your spring preload otherwise it will be really stiff.

Heavier swaybars help too...

The mid 90's AC performance manual used to have charts to show you were to mount the arms in the rear skid for ice racing. Since it is a dying art... :cussing: , they don't do that anymore.....

Second, I want to know if most people drop down a tooth on top for racing.
Thanks
[/b]
how long is the track?

The shock spacers are probably the best method to keep the sled down, as well as some front end tie-down.

If racing 500/600 feet, yes, gear change is common. Once the gear change is made, the engine can be loaded faster, which is usually accomplished by adding a small amount of weight on the cam arms. Secondary tension increase should be avoided if possible.

how long is the track?
[/b]

It is a 121"







The mid 90's AC performance manual used to have charts to show you were to mount the arms in the rear skid for ice racing. Since it is a dying art... :cussing: , they don't do that anymore.....
[/b]

Do you know where is says to mount them?



If racing 500/600 feet, yes, gear change is common. Once the gear change is made, the engine can be loaded faster, which is usually accomplished by adding a small amount of weight on the cam arms. Secondary tension increase should be avoided if possible.
[/b]

Is one tooth down on top a good choice as a general idea? I have adjustable weights, about how many grams you think I should add to compensate for one tooth?

Now I have a question about the spring tension, If I am gearing it lower, so my motor is spinning higher, wouldn't I want to lower the secondary tension to bring down the RPM's? WHy would I want to think about tightening it?

WIll I have to shorten the chain to go down a gear? Or is it a good idea to add to teh bottom as well.

Most tuners will take their 24/39 gear combo and go with a 23/40. This prevents the need to replace the chain (although it will be a tight fit). The amount of weight you need to add is gonna be trial and error. Probably will need a gram or two to load the engine harder/faster.

Where to make the clutching change to take advantage of the gear change is a matter of clutching tuning. The gear change allows you to load the engine harder/faster. If you change to clutching to load the engine faster, you'll eliminate the higher RPM scenario in the first place.

Playing with the secondary tension can be tricky, especially on the larger bore sleds. Resist the temtation to decrease tension, as this usually leads to belt slippage in the driven clutch (hard to detect I might add - You should be running a high tension green spring anyways). Increasing tension can lead to increased belt temps and can actually decrease clutch efficiency.

Rule of thumb is to TRY to increase primary cam arm weight to load the engine faster. The secondary spring tension should be as low as possible WITHOUT causing excessive belt slippage.

Playing with the secondary tension can be tricky, especially on the larger bore sleds. Resist the temtation to decrease tension, as this usually leads to belt slippage in the driven clutch (hard to detect I might add - You should be running a high tension green spring anyways). Increasing tension can lead to increased belt temps and can actually decrease clutch efficiency.

Rule of thumb is to TRY to increase primary cam arm weight to load the engine faster. The secondary spring tension should be as low as possible WITHOUT causing excessive belt slippage.
[/b]

The green driven spring, is this an Arctic Cat one you refer to? Do you know what the numbers are on it. I have a few different ones, right now I think I have a D&D Orange one, I will haev to check the weight. WHat about Helix, what do you recommend for mainly lake racing?

How do I tell if I have belt slippage here?

Thanks

My cat green spring # is 0748-025 stamped on side. You can tell if belt is slipping by a hand check on clutches, should be warm to the touch not hot. What kind of ice racing are we talking about here, drags, oval or lake and how long.

Your helix will be determined by your entire clutch setup, including your weights and primary spring. My helix recommendation would require complete retune and component purchase for your entire clutch setup.

Your helix will be determined by your entire clutch setup, including your weights and primary spring. My helix recommendation would require complete retune and component purchase for your entire clutch setup.
[/b]

I am open to suggestions, I may have something real close, I have several springs/helixs, and my weights go from 59-67 grams. I understand if you don;t want to share, but I woudl appreciate it.!!!

A fairly stock 1000 Tcat for 500/600ft racing...

PRIMARY:

Polaris 10M62 weights. (may require slight bushing modification)
Cutler Purple/White Spring

SECONDARY:

OEM Green spring
60/54 helix

Set belt to ride EXACTLY 1/16 inch above sheaves. Verify C-to-C, belt deflection, and offset. Gears will need to be changed to 23/40.

Also, if proper suspension and traction setup is not done, above clutch setup will cause the engine to bog. I will explain this if you want.

I was working under the assumption you were doing Ice Lemans style racing....sorry.

For drag racing I would have to look it up in the manual. They should have a settup similiar to what you were told the "Master"..... :D

A fairly stock 1000 Tcat for 500/600ft racing...

PRIMARY:

Polaris 10M62 weights. (may require slight bushing modification)
Cutler Purple/White Spring

SECONDARY:

OEM Green spring
60/54 helix

Set belt to ride EXACTLY 1/16 inch above sheaves. Verify C-to-C, belt deflection, and offset. Gears will need to be changed to 23/40.

Also, if proper suspension and traction setup is not done, above clutch setup will cause the engine to bog. I will explain this if you want.
[/b]

I would definatley like to hear why the bog.

As far as the Cutler Spring, I looked online and could not find the spring pressures of that spring, do you know what they are? I have a few different springs and should have somethign very close.

Now the weights, I have Hooper Adjustabel weights so the 62 is right in the middle of the range, that I should be fin eone. I am almost positive I have a 60/54 helix as well.

I have a D&D Orange secondary along wiht a hanful of others. I want to find out the specs on that green one you are talking about, to see how mine pars.

Do you put the spring in the middle position?

I am not sure whta mine would be considered but it is a 800 bottom end with 992cc, ported, D&D pipes, V-force reeds, 3 degree key, 01 T-cat CDI, pod filters, and a dial-a-jet, and I am currently having my heads cut again to give 165 PSI (I hope to have these soon).

Thanks

I would definatley like to hear why the bog.

As far as the Cutler Spring, I looked online and could not find the spring pressures of that spring, do you know what they are? I have a few different springs and should have somethign very close.

Now the weights, I have Hooper Adjustabel weights so the 62 is right in the middle of the range, that I should be fin eone. I am almost positive I have a 60/54 helix as well.

I have a D&D Orange secondary along wiht a hanful of others. I want to find out the specs on that green one you are talking about, to see how mine pars.

Do you put the spring in the middle position?

I am not sure whta mine would be considered but it is a 800 bottom end with 992cc, ported, D&D pipes, V-force reeds, 3 degree key, 01 T-cat CDI, pod filters, and a dial-a-jet, and I am currently having my heads cut again to give 165 PSI (I hope to have these soon).

Thanks
[/b]

If you don't have your suspension and traction issues completely resolved, this combo will cause you to spin wildly off the line. The clutches will start to shift out, then the sled will eventually regain traction. The clutch setup offers poor backshifting which will cause a slight pause while the clutches attempt to backshift. This will result in a bog.

The Cutler info should be purple/white not pink/white. I always get that wrong if I don't look it up. The pink/white is a driven combo and you don't need that. The purple/white is 175 @ 2.562" and 305 @ 1.3712. I will say that you'll probably never match the initial compression force, nor the rate exactly.

You can use whatever you want, but be forewarned that your end results will be poor. This combo is a complete set; failure to use the components mentioned will result in bad results. There is a reason why I stated all the components. Remember, just a 200 rpm offset can cost you 30 or more hp.

The secondary spring should be in the middle hole.

I would toss the Hooper weights and use the Polaris 10M60. The tip weight is good and the cam profile offers an excellent race curve while holding R's steady. Engagement notches can also be ground.

Hope you are running race fuel with that kind of compression.

If you don't have your suspension and traction issues completely resolved, this combo will cause you to spin wildly off the line. The clutches will start to shift out, then the sled will eventually regain traction. The clutch setup offers poor backshifting which will cause a slight pause while the clutches attempt to backshift. This will result in a bog.

The Cutler info should be purple/white not pink/white. I always get that wrong if I don't look it up. The pink/white is a driven combo and you don't need that. The purple/white is 175 @ 2.562" and 305 @ 1.3712. I will say that you'll probably never match the initial compression force, nor the rate exactly.

You can use whatever you want, but be forewarned that your end results will be poor. This combo is a complete set; failure to use the components mentioned will result in bad results. There is a reason why I stated all the components. Remember, just a 200 rpm offset can cost you 30 or more hp.

The secondary spring should be in the middle hole.

I would toss the Hooper weights and use the Polaris 10M60. The tip weight is good and the cam profile offers an excellent race curve while holding R's steady. Engagement notches can also be ground.

Hope you are running race fuel with that kind of compression.
[/b]


Well the D&D Orange Drive Spring 170/305, that is pretty darn close (do you think it is close enough?). I will look up that green spring info, and see what I have/need. As far as the weights, what is wrong with the hooper ones? They are tip heavy, isn;t this what I want for racing?

I will run race gas with the heads (if I get them back, free machining usually takes a backseat to paid jobs, especially CNC work).

Thanks for all the help.

Well the D&D Orange Drive Spring 170/305, that is pretty darn close (do you think it is close enough?). I will look up that green spring info, and see what I have/need. As far as the weights, what is wrong with the hooper ones? They are tip heavy, isn;t this what I want for racing?

I will run race gas with the heads (if I get them back, free machining usually takes a backseat to paid jobs, especially CNC work).

Thanks for all the help.
[/b]
You can give it a shot but I am not making any promises. I know for sure that the Cutler will not coil bind. Can't comment about the one you have.

The Polaris weights have a good racing curve. Yes they do have a good amount of weight at the tip but they provide a very aggressive shift. Simple as that.

Well I took off the gears today and to my pleasent surprise they were 40/23, so that saves a few bucks. I posted in another thread, but there was no rear roler tensioner on it, I am wondering if it is like you sadi too tight, can you think of any reasons for this? I have been thinking about the clutching you mentioned. I am trying to identify my one helix, but the one I thought I had is actually a 60/46, then I have a 60/40, and a couple more I am not sure. I may need to buy one. Now what about riding across the lake and nailing it from a roll, how will your setup do? I have a big race on Houghton Lake. I really want to test some first, but I am not sure if I can, when does Anchor Bay usually freeze? I am going to Hougton Lake on 1/21 (or thereabouts, that weekend).
Thanks

Well I took off the gears today and to my pleasent surprise they were 40/23, so that saves a few bucks. I posted in another thread, but there was no rear roler tensioner on it, I am wondering if it is like you sadi too tight, can you think of any reasons for this? I have been thinking about the clutching you mentioned. I am trying to identify my one helix, but the one I thought I had is actually a 60/46, then I have a 60/40, and a couple more I am not sure. I may need to buy one. Now what about riding across the lake and nailing it from a roll, how will your setup do? I have a big race on Houghton Lake. I really want to test some first, but I am not sure if I can, when does Anchor Bay usually freeze? I am going to Hougton Lake on 1/21 (or thereabouts, that weekend).
Thanks
[/b]
Compare your setup to the image below:

http://www.brownsleisureworld.com/Parts/Im.../0735-115_s.gif (http://www.brownsleisureworld.com/Parts/Images/0735/0735-115_s.gif)

I can't help you on identifying that helix (I saw your other post) and I don't think anyone else will either.

The clutch combo will work great for all aspects of racing, including roll-ons, EXCEPT for backshifting. Also, it will run out of legs right around 700 ft.

Anchor Bay is usually ready to ride the first week in January, though the recent rash of REALLY warm weather and rain will delay that a few weeks. I wouldn't trust any ice in lower MI right now. Give it a few more weeks as this warm spell is suppose to break soon.

did you have your head rechambereD? milling your heads dont really have a effect on your sled unless your head is rechambered. now when you said your heads are being milled again.... i dont get it. can you be sure your squish is correct? you can take a peice of .060 wire and use that to check your squish.

did you have your head rechambereD? milling your heads dont really have a effect on your sled unless your head is rechambered. now when you said your heads are being milled again.... i dont get it. can you be sure your squish is correct? you can take a peice of .060 wire and use that to check your squish.
[/b]

Yes they were rechambered. I had them done once for a baseline, and checked it, now I am making an adjustment.

Would my sled be comparable to a fairly stock T-cat? I was going to order the clutch stuff you recommended, but I have been thinking. My motor does have a different stroke than a T-cat (I have an 800 bottom end). My motor seems to run best around 8700 (That is where my pipes are desigend to be run at). Will your cluthc setup be close to this? I guess I am wondering if I should do exactly what you said, or just set up my secondary like you said and leave my weights as they are adjustable.

As far as that secondary, is the number mentioned earlier correct (0748-025), I want to buy the right one.

Now what RPM do you launch at? My crank is not welded and I am concerning about taking off at 5500 or so, right now it comes in at 4500. I want to weld the crank, but the budget is out right now, the clutch stuff about does it.

Thanks

It should be comparable, though the clucth info I povided is designed to run around 8500RPM. But every application is different so tweaks will be required no matter what.

Yes, the secondary part number is correct.

4500 RPM engagement is plenty. I have reservations that you'll be able to hook it up in the first place though. As I mentioned before, your suspension and traction needs to be spot on for this to all work. I haven't heard what you are planning to do to fix this issue, nor have I heard what your traction components are.

I am not trying to be negative, but this is a lesson I learned a long tine ago all to well. I would spend weeks on my engine and clutching, making modifications and little tweaks to get 180HP or so out of the engine and tweak the clucthing. I would then go to the ice and get beat by stock 800s.

Here's the way it works, just in case you haven't experienced it yet:

You punch the throttle at the line. If your studs (picks) are good, the front of the sled will lift HIGH, and eventually enough of your stud footprint will leave the ice to cause the track to spin. You'll lose forward momentum just a little, but enough to cause the front of the sled to come back down. The sled will regain traction again since the footprint is full, but the clutch has already shifted beyond that point, so there goes that great holeshot.

The front end will begin to lift again, and if you are lucky, it will only go high enough for you to not be able to steer, but not enough to lose traction again.

The problem is that while you are playing this bouncy game, other racers are going forward. You end up losing to a well tuned 700 twin. You go home and wonder why you are even in this sport.

Sound familar to anyone? Does me, I did it.

Eventually you learn that your traction and weight transfer issues are paramount in order to be competitive on ice. I learned this lesson well after talking to a person that took a fairly stock 600 ZRT and put 168 ice picks on it. He found it hilarious to go down to the ice and pound on 160, 170, 180HP+ sleds that did not have their homework complete.

Me.

You then realize that all those modifications and clucth changes don't do a whole lot if you don't have the traction issues resolved first. Just my $.02.

Well we discussed the traction issue in a different thread a while ago, and I have already sort of bought my studs after you told me what you thought. I have a .5 speed track with 240 band new 1.18 chisels. I do have another 96 holes and I have 1.2 picks I could put in there, but the holes are all onthe outside lugs (2 on every other one).

I plan on shortneing my shocks like you said to.

As far as running the RPMs higher, what would I change? Lighter weights? It seems like less than 60 might be getting light. Shoudl I use a little touher spring?

I am going to inventory what I have and see what I need to buy.

Thanks

You don't need much. You could shim the primary spring since it will not coil bind using the one I suggested. Or a touch lighter weight would suffice. Run the setup first, then adjust from there. You might be right where you need to be.

I see you went the chisel way. I'll be suprised if that works for you as well as you think it will. Directional studs suck as I promise you they will rotate.

I ran 240 1.2" picks on a .5 speed track. My brother ran 240 chisels. He spent about 5 hours trying to align them properly. He pulled them all back out the following weekend because he stated he didn't want to be spanked by me like that again.

After he replaced them with the picks, I had a hard time with him from the hole once again.

But hey, results may vary, who knows. :)

I am hoping the chisels work out, I really do. My issue is like i said I may not be able to practice much aside from my big race. Is there anywhere in SE MI to race right now, or real soon?

Thanks

Anchor Bay would be your best bet. It freezes quicker due to its shallow depth. Just take a drive down and cut some holes to see the thickness. I don't know what it is right now, but I have to assume it is thin with the weather we have had.

And they are talking mid 40s this weekend.

WelI I think I am going to buy teh components you recommended, all of them. But you sadi two different weights, 60 and 62 gram. I suspect you meant 62. Also what bushing modification is needed?

Thanks

Also is there a difference in a 10m62 weight or is it just a Polaris 62 grma weight?

Thanks

Sorry, meant 62.

These are the ones I am referring to:

http://www.hiperf.com/acatalog/Online_Cata...m_Arms_133.html (http://www.hiperf.com/acatalog/Online_Catalog_Polaris_Cam_Arms_133.html)

Scroll down til you see 10-62M.

What kind of bushing modifications are required?

Also being that this is 8500 RPM setup, that is dependetn on the machine correct? Mine may be a little higher or lower? If I am shooting for 8700, and I use your exact setup, and it does endf up at 8500, could I just loosen the secondary spring a notch and see if that is OK? Just check for slippage?
Thanks

Sometimes, depending on the clutch, the cam arm bores need to be SLIGHTLY opened with a round file since they can be too tight. Make sure they slide EASILY on the pins, not tight at all. Also be careful not to completely damage the bore material. Just a LITTLE modification may e necessary. I assume your clutch is a Cat 9 Tower?

It is important that they are loose as they can stiffen when the components get warm. Don't install them if they are tight.

The exact shift RPM will vary machine to machine. Try the setup, then modify or exchange the weights/springs to acheive your desired RPM range.

There is NO way around the trial and error aspect. But every single person, friend, user, that has tried this setup has been very happy in the end, once the tuning was done.

Remember though, the setup is for 500/660 ft racing period. It performs poorly in the trail.

Sometimes, depending on the clutch, the cam arm bores need to be SLIGHTLY opened with a round file since they can be too tight. Make sure they slide EASILY on the pins, not tight at all. Also be careful not to completely damage the bore material. Just a LITTLE modification may e necessary. I assume your clutch is a Cat 9 Tower?

It is important that they are loose as they can stiffen when the components get warm. Don't install them if they are tight.

The exact shift RPM will vary machine to machine. Try the setup, then modify or exchange the weights/springs to acheive your desired RPM range.

There is NO way around the trial and error aspect. But every single person, friend, user, that has tried this setup has been very happy in the end, once the tuning was done.

Remember though, the setup is for 500/660 ft racing period. It performs poorly in the trail.
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Now what if we are roling at 30mph and hit it. Then do I only have 600 ft or do I now have allot less?
Thanks

Allright I ordered everything you said. I hope it works out. Now why the 1/16th in? I alwasy heard 1/8"?

Allright I ordered everything you said. I hope it works out. Now why the 1/16th in? I alwasy heard 1/8"?
[/b]

The gearing and clutching change limits your top speed, ideally to increase acceleration. Your hard pulling big end will be the same whether you start from a holeshot or from 30MPH.

Acceleration will be good through the entire range, unless your clutches require some backshifting at any point, at which time that performance will be poor.

You should never go above 1/16th inch in a higher horse machine as it will increase the chances of belt slippage dramatically. You can get away with an 1/8 on the smaller HP sleds, but not yours.

All right tell me if I am thinking this right. I am setting my cluthc up exactly how you said to. First, what engagement does this have around 4500? This setup should come in and let my motor RPM very fast and keep it doing that, but if I let off for whatever reason (most likely traction) I may bog when I nail it again. After the bog, it would then again pull hard, correct?

Now is the point of this setup (or any good race setup) to get your rpm's to the desired range as fast a possible and hold them there right?

As far as the suspention I am sending out my shocks to Goodwin on Tuesday (I am pulling them tomorrow). They said abotu $50 each and tehy will set them up for racing, they said they have any idea what size spacer to put in there. Were you able to veirfiy yours? WHen I get them back I still use the stock springs, and don;t cut them right (I think they reassemble them anyway). I also tightne the limiter straps as tight as I can, correct?

As far as the front I think I am going to do just what you said in the other thread with the cables.

Now what do you know about welding the crank, and I really pushing it?

Thanks

Your engagement should be around 4200 - 4500rpm. EVERY machine is different though.

Yes, your thinking is correct as far as the bog goes.

You want to get you motor turning at its peak r's fast and hold them there during the race.

I don't remember the spacer thicknesses but I am sure that Goodwin would be able to get close. Yes, tighten the limiter and also cable the front. See my Garage images for an example fo the front end tie downs. Yes, use the stock springs for the shocks, no mods here.

I don't remember all your mods but I don't think you are even approaching 200HP. Anything above 200 I would recommend welding the crank. But your engagement won't be that high anyways so that should provide some insurance.

I don't remember all your mods but I don't think you are even approaching 200HP. Anything above 200 I would recommend welding the crank. But your engagement won't be that high anyways so that should provide some insurance.
[/b]

A while back there was the article on the race logic big bore project. I belive that it dynoed somewhere around 180 HP and that was with stock pipes. I have the same motor plus pipes, better CDI, 3 degree key, V-force reeds, pod filters, and hopefully the new heads. You don't think I shoudl make 200? How much do you think I shoudl expect?

I am gonna guess you are around 190HP

The big bore project had some really stellar race porting, not to mention computer matched heads. Your pod filters are a wash, the V-Force add about a horse or two on their best day (more for throttle response), offset key adds about 2-3 HP, pipes maybe 7-12 depending on brand.

190 is a good guess. Not enough to worry about a welded crank. High engagements or > 200HP would be another story.

I am gonna guess you are around 190HP

The big bore project had some really stellar race porting, not to mention computer matched heads. Your pod filters are a wash, the V-Force add about a horse or two on their best day (more for throttle response), offset key adds about 2-3 HP, pipes maybe 7-12 depending on brand.

190 is a good guess. Not enough to worry about a welded crank. High engagements or > 200HP would be another story.
[/b]


SO after I get the traction and cluthcing under control, if I want to add more power, whta is my next step? Nitrous? Or better porting? I alwasy hear of people saying they have 220 out of a 1000 motor??? Are they all exxaturating?

Now I thought my motor was proted just like the projecxt motor, wasn;t it the trail setup?

No, it was race porting. A good race port on your sled would bump you to around 205-210 if it is a good one. The reason why the bump is high is that you can really take advantage of the pipes now.

But I didn't know yours was ported in the first place. I must have missed that. So I will change my estimate on your current HP to around 195-200.

210-215 MAX would be feasible (on OEM jugs) but would require case porting and carb boring, with all other mods matching.

No, it was race porting. A good race port on your sled would bump you to around 205-210 if it is a good one. The reason why the bump is high is that you can really take advantage of the pipes now.

But I didn't know yours was ported in the first place. I must have missed that. So I will change my estimate on your current HP to around 195-200.

210-215 MAX would be feasible (on OEM jugs) but would require case porting and carb boring, with all other mods matching.
[/b]

I was thinking around 200 as well. Givce or take a little, I figured with the new heads it should maek over 200. But it sounds like i should still be OK with the non welded crank.

There is no doubt that you are getting to that point when it would be a good idea. But with reasonable engagement, I still think you will be fine.

There is no doubt that you are getting to that point when it would be a good idea. But with reasonable engagement, I still think you will be fine.
[/b]

I hope so. I appreciate all the help you have been giving me. I will look you up this year at Anchor Bay. What I am planning on doing is setting up one cluthc setup just like you said to. Then I have two more primarys, I am going to at least bring one with my current setup (adjustabel weights), and maybee the other setup how D&D says to.

I really wnat to pick up one more secondary, do you know of one for sale realtiveyly cheap (roller style)? I am placing a post about this as well.

Thanks