Just wanted to share last night's experience!

Some guy stopped his sled in the middle of the trail. So it was either hit him or dump the sled! I wasn't driving, but all i knew is that I was going face first in the snow! Luckily the sled was ok, we're lucky that it didn't go into a tree or into the river!

My man did a good job of keeping it off of us!

The last post was edited.That is why we have moderators.If a person does something stupid on the trail,it is not the brand of sleds fault,it is the dork in the seat.Jilly,I guess you really like your brand.

jilly,
*if you check the guy that was in the middle of the trail his kid probably drops his bicycle anywhere and takes up more room with it than a tractor trailer does. that's the way he taught the kid.
*i tell the kids in our group never stop in a corner, make sure you can see for a mile in both directions if you do stop and both skies on virgin snow.

So this reminds me of something that happened to our group last weekend. We were a group of four, all very well seasoned (I'm talking about more than a hundred years experience, combined, among us), on very high performance trail machines. We had maybe a hundred miles under our belt for the day and had run into an area I know very well. Conditions were right for a very fast run the last 10 miles of the day, mostly through a long series of twisties, one of my favorite sections. It was Super Bowl Sunday, traffic had been very light. So we decided to take full advantage of the bright day and good conditions, so rare in our area this year. We were running very fast, at the top of our capabilities. Corners were being taken in a long series of slides, big roost from the rear of our sleds. 2 big Polaris triples in the lead and 2 big Skidoo twins in back of those. We had to have been very easy to hear coming for miles with all of our machines running up on their pipes. We came flying around a corner maybe a sled length apart and entered a straight section. Parked off to the side of the trail were several older sleds, all people well off to the side of the trail. But something just wasn't right. Then there she was, a woman kneeling in the trail, not far from dead center, adjusting a toddlers coat, HER BACK TO US! *HOLY COW! I couldn't believe it.

We easily avoided them by braking hard to a reasonable speed and passing with several feet between us and them (caused quite a commotion among us to though, locked up tracks, sliding, and near misses among our own), not even a threat actually, but the thought still haunts me. I'm sure she felt threatened. I'm sure she believes I was being a reckless lunatic and the incident was entirely my fault. Even though somebody else coming through there may have been passing, may have been drinking, may not have had the forsight to be driving defensively, whatever, the list of possibilities could go on for a while. Scary, VERY scary.

I keep thinking to myself, what was on her mind? Was SHE drunk? Why didn't she act on the noise she must have heard well in advance of our arrival? Why didn't the others in her group (probably 8 or 10 people) warn her? Were THEY drinking? Was it that they were that inexperienced that they didn't realize the potential danger roaring down on them? *WHAT?

You figure they will next time? I sure hope so.

AL

[/b][/quote]"We came flying around a corner maybe a sled length apart and entered a straight section. Parked off to the side of the trail were several older sleds, all people well off to the side of the trail. But something just wasn&#39;t right. Then there she was, a woman kneeling in the trail, not far from dead center, adjusting a toddlers coat, HER BACK TO US! *HOLY COW! I couldn&#39;t believe it. "<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I am sure they had more reason to be suprised then you did. Travelling along a trail like you were is ten-fold more dangerous then what they were doing.

"We came flying around a corner maybe a sled length apart "

Glad you don&#39;t ride around my area.

michahicks,
*a smart man would delete his post. *http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Thanks for the warning Paul.

But I think that maybe the point of my note has been missed. The machines were being driven in a completely responsible *manner, by experienced drivers, with a clear view of the trail ahead. I thought I had made that clear in my note. We were driving fast, no denying that. We were not driving in a manner that would endanger anyone else on the trail system. Period. What we do amongst ourselves is our own business. (If one of us had felt challenged, for whatever reason, he would have dropped back). I was not extending an invitaion to ride with me, only being completely honest and describing the situation as I saw it. The toddler could have walked in front of any one of our sleds in safety by time we had come close enough. We passed them at a walking speed under complete control. I had been spooked well within safe stopping distance.

I was just completely taken aback by someone so oblivious to the fact that they were in danger and were not doing anything about it, even with so much warning. I was concerned thinking about what could have happened if the
if the situation had been different...

The purpose for the note was to generate thought. I&#39;m not looking to assign blame on anyone. I&#39;m quite honestly wanting people to examine their own habits and to put themselves in my shoes at the point I had been as I exited that corner and honestly say that they are in control of the situation.

Not looking for any self rightous writers looking to tell me how wrong I was/am. It&#39;s too easy to point fingers at others rather than looking in a mirror. What you think of me or the way I drive isn&#39;t even relevant. If you are of the notion that a sled cannot be driven fast, and safely within the capabilities of the driver, my apologies. I will not try to change your mind here. It&#39;s not what this is about. I&#39;m talking to the people that are comfortable with that idea and asking if they are ready for a situation like the one I&#39;ve described. Always ready...

Still spooked,
AL

al - you may be right that they were in the wrong.

But let me ask you this: *when cruising down the highway, do you tailgate? *right on someone&#39;s bumper?

Al, I agree with you. The way some trails are built there is no way to see around every corner no matter what the speed. People should not camp in the middle of the trail period. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif The distance you are from your buddies is of no concern because you obviosly trust each other. You&#39;re welcome to ride in our area any time. http://www.snowmobileworld-s2.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

last year about 20 miles form where i live, 3 guys were riding "maybe a sled length apart", because they "trusted each other". *The lead guy hit an unexpected large bump and fell off. *Being so close, the guy right behind ran over him. *I didn&#39;t see it, but I hear that it wasn&#39;t a pretty sight, after 192 Woody&#39;s studs got through with him. *If you wanna ride like that, like I said in a previous post, please don&#39;t do it around my area. *I don&#39;t wanna have to scoop you up. *Or someone else because of your carelessness and inattention to safety.

No matter how good you are, or who you are riding with, what you are doing just lacks common sense.

Just my opinion, of course, but I am sure there are others who feel the same way.

Thundercatzr

Thundrcatzr,
Please reread the last paragraph in my note. I&#39;m not going to try and change your mind about something you aren&#39;t comfortable with. That&#39;s something that you have to decide. I&#39;m not going to downplay the risks involved. I&#39;ve accepted them. The same as I do when climbing into an acrobatic airplane or onto a street bike. You want to get all rightous about something? How about a guy who is driving on a revoked drivers license (DUI), pulls out of a side street in front of a mototcycle causing a fatality in front of witnesses, and receives 90 days probation? The bike had 3 halogen headlights turned on and the 73 year old judge handed down the sentence with the comment that "bikes are hard to see". *A guy on a sled was killed in an open field by hitting the only tree stump in sight. Does that mean that you will never go play in an open field? Point being that there are risk levels involved in a lot of things. Only you can decide how far you want to go. To sit there and condemn others for their decision?

But this is getting off the topic, I&#39;d be happy to debate this in a dedicated area. I would also find it hard to draw similarities between a 4500 lb vehicle tailgating in traffic behind someone they&#39;ve never met, and the situation I&#39;ve described over familiar turf.

AL

Try telling the Sheriff&#39;s patrol or the local Conservation Officer how experienced and responsible you are after they observe your antics. *I&#39;m sure that they&#39;ll take that into consideration while writing and issuing you a "coupon" for Operating in an Unsafe Manner. *A couple of years ago, I watched three such experts run a C.O. off the trail in a curve; took seven miles to catch them but that gave the officer a little more time to admire their "abilities". *Oh, at the end of the encounter they went on their way a whole lot humbler and and soon to be somewhat poorer.

Trail cop,
Get your facts straight bud. Start at the top. Sliding around a corner is not wreckless until the centerline is crossed. There are no speed limits on the trails in Michigan. I&#39;ve endangered nobody. What you say regarding the situation doesn&#39;t even make sense. I&#39;ve told the complete truth here and would put any part of what I&#39;ve done on tape and show it to any expert for their examination if I were able. There was nothing illegal or wreckless. You&#39;ve managed to completly miss what&#39;s going on.

People, I&#39;m trying to steer this conversation to be about responsibility, and the question is: Assuming you are comfortable at speed, have you considered, and are you willing to accept, the consequences of your actions? Completely?

This is something that I am working on myself, and it would appear that I am not able to bring others in to discuss this
without confusing the issue. I&#39;d like it to be known that I would not/have not put myself in a position to harm others by my actions. The machine and I would be out in the woods if that occasion were to arise. It&#39;s that simple. Please don&#39;t try to read anything otherwise into it.
AL

Whew!!! * You got yourself in a pickle with that post . * MY .02 *is speed has a lot of risks. *I always look at the risks when *I am the one operating. *car snowmobile or bike. *and I like to think I ride in control of what I am operating I can understand very well ;your position *and the conditions you describe. * The problem is we are in the minority. * *Your riding skill and your reflexes were able to prevent a tragidy. *This time anyway. *and you desereve credit for it.
but be aware that most people are not operators they are only holding handlebars or a steering wheel *and never get to operate a piece of equipment to its limits. *and know they are still in control. * *I base this observation being a crane operator and forklift instructor. * and the many hours I have operating equipment at its limit. *You apparently learned from this experiance and know to be aware of around the next corner or when you top a hill. *and also what you post. *I hope trail cop can retain his good sense of being a human and does not turn into a dudley doright when he wears his uniform. * unfornunatly we do need policemen in our society, * The hard part for them is the training that teaches them to look at things in only one way. *There are always varibles to anything. * common sense and good judgement go alot farther than any law.

Al, I guess we will agree to disagree. *I do not agree with your style of riding and never will. *I ride bikes, boats, and also fly airplanes, and feel that safety is always of the utmost importance, not just for others, but for myself. *And my family. *I hope you are never coming towards me on that corner.

Ride safe.

I think I can see where everyone is coming from on this topic. Some would say that if your going to ride that fast keep it to a race track, I would hope then that they can honestly say that they ride the maximum speed limit posted and never go over it all the time.
At any speed, a person in the middle of the trail is a hazard. It all depends on where in the corner they are. If a person is in the middle of a corner and you don&#39;t see them, 55 or 100 is not going to make difference. You as a rider has to make up his mind as to what speed you want to ride at.
Like Al said, they should have heard the sleds coming, no matter how fast they were going. Unless the wind is howling or all your sleds arerunning, you should be able to hear a sled along way off.
I know when we stop along a trail quite often we hear sleds coming long before we see them. Don&#39;t even know where they will come from, but we make sure the trail is clear for them.
Lets face it everyone will have a different opinion on how fast they can/should/would/do ride. As long as nobody gets hurt its safe.

Thundercatzr,
Sir, how can I convince you that if there is going to be a problem in a corner as we approach each other, with my current riding style, that it will not be because *I am on the wrong side of the trail?

Why is it that you assume because I am going fast that I am some out of control lunatic?

You are failing to understand the concept that running fast while under control is a possibility. That is where we differ.
If you are firm on this, then yes, I will agree to disagree.

alindazip, you sir, understand. Thank you.

AL

Al, I have no problem with running fast and under control - I love the speed myself - the problem I have is doing it "maybe a sled length apart". *To my mind, there is just not enough of a safety factor built into this. *The slightest little error can have disastrous consequences.

"We came flying around a corner maybe a sled length apart." *What if the lead guy touched his brake. *The guy behind would hit him, creating at least 2 out of control sleds. *Now what if someone were coming the other way into that corner?

"You are failing to understand the concept that running fast while under control is a possibility." - No, I am not. *I am running a T-Cat and regularly run well over 100 mph. *But I do it in a safe fashion. *Riding on a trail "maybe a sled length apart" *has no inherent safety factor whatsoever.

Ok *Time for one more reply *Then I am going riding. * I do like the posts. *it helps keep in persective *and fresh in my mind *what can happen when you ride areas where there are a lot of sleds on the trails. *It is refreshing to see intelligent people civily disscussing touchy subjects *It is a good thing I have to leave right now or I will get longwinded again. *have fun and safe riding if you have snow to ride.

alindazip - I agree - I do enjoy a good discussion. *Al and I may disagree on this point, but we still share a common love for the sport.

And Al, I may not agree with your opinion on this one, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Shiny side up, guys - Happy sledding!!

Scott/thundercatzr

So now I feel like logic is beginning to surface. I&#39;ll explain, not to justify what I have done, only to show that what I do CAN be done safely.

You are assuming that we would try running in a pack at speed in the presence of others. Not the case. Nothing will break us up quicker, there are simply not enough options available (honestly that can be a comedy, but would happen well before approaching traffic came close enough to make a difference. Scrambling within a pack is always a topic at a break after forming a pack has been possible. ) You are assuming we don&#39;t have control because hitting our brakes would cause an accident, also not true. This happens all the time, to the point where the guy in front of you could possibly and will at times lock up his track. The plan is to look where he looks, see what he sees when he sees it, and act on what you know he is going to do. Your eyes are only a few feet from his. You can see what he sees. Not something you want to try right away, but it can be, and is done all the time (among us). If this isn&#39;t possible for whatever reason, you don&#39;t have to be on the same line down the trail, but the problem with that is there are only so many lines. Therefore never more than 4 in a pack, 3 is better, with loose blowing snow it might only be safe for 2. *In the case of a misjudgement, and in all honesty it does happen, you head away from center, not always fun.

Believe me, my standards for safety, and the standards agreed upon within our group, wether you chose to believe it or not, are also very high. In the years we have ridden together (there are 7 of us that I would consider running in a pack with, 3 of us, including myself, started riding in 1970) and we have averaged 4000 to 5000 miles a year lately (no, not all of it has been at speed) *none of us, wether in a group or alone, have ever been involved in an accident, on the road or trail, or even received a ticket (on the trail).

AL

Well michahicks I&#39;ll ride with you any time, and i also have about 4 buds that will. *
This could go on and on like the drinking post did.(little of topic, but yes I&#39;ll have 1 or 2 with my dinner on the trail and thats all)
But i also don&#39;t mind cruisind at the legal OFSC speed, which is a whooping 30mph!! * http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I agree with you michahicks! *You proved your point perfectly! http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

zrt600mtncat,
*you are right can you expect the others on the trail to do what you want during big time speed ? when it is said the guys that do excessive speed can trust can trust one another because one knows what the other is doing i guess they must know because they practice their performance as often as the detroit red wings or the toronto raptors.

*the bottom line is excessive speed is not for the trail, it is for the race track. like hockey everyone wants to be like gretzky, sledding like 7c or 68.

Zrt...
Point well taken on the vest. Thanks. I will be a couple notches more *conservative on what I believe are the right conditions for "running at speed" after that situation. You mention your speed has been decreased. For the sake of conversation, To what point? To the point where you can say you aren&#39;t "going fast"? Or are you saying that you are more conservative when running at speed? That would agree with my thoughts at this point 100%.

Paul,
I&#39;m sure you know "excessive " is a subjective term. *Your excessive may be well be within my comfort zone, or vice versa. We are not speaking of running at speed in the presence of others. THAT would be excesssive (unless it were a track&#33http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. *I couldn&#39;t agree more on the unpredictable "other guy". We are talking about the basic speed law. Running well within the "assured clear distance ahead" and having a (little more) realistic awareness of exactly what that consists of...
Not good at watching, would much rather be doing http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Guys-
I&#39;d like to take a time out to thank all who have responded with intelligent comments. It&#39;s all thought provoking, and I enjoy this immensely. Thinking about something I love as much as snowmobiling, can be nearly as much fun as doing it. And honestly, here in Michigan, that&#39;s been most of what we&#39;ve been able to do (think about it). What a completely cruddy winter.

AL

michahicks,
*everyone disagreed with you, period.
but if it makes you feel better there is another person on the forum that sticks his foot in his mouth also.

I have been rear ended to many times by tailgators and one time I hit the brack to slow down for a sharp corner and looked over my shoulder to see a freind on his brand spanking new 700xcsp rolling over on his lid trying to avoid hitting me.
this is why I either ride behind him or way infront of him with at least 2 other sleds inbetween us.

I just wanted to add my .03 cents to this topic... up till Last year I rode almost exactly like michahicks described, maybe even leaning towards out of control... I always knew that I was in full control of my sled, I was always pushing the edge of my ability, which is fine when the coast is clear, but when the unexpected happens, as it did to me and some friends in the form of a group of sleds parked on a corner that sent me into the trees at about 40 mph... By luck and the grace of god, I made it through the ordeal without a scratch on me or the sled...while airborne I missed a pair of oak trees by inches on both sides. *At the time I cursed those sleds on that corner, and never gave a second thought to my riding habits. *Since I joined this chat forum this year, comments from other riders here have made me think alot about what can happen on the trails, because the unexpected always pops up at the worst moment. *I have read alot of posts here about thinking about your family and other loved ones when you are out riding, and how they want you back in one piece. *I never thought I would let some mushy crap like that change my riding style, but I can honestly say that it has.. Don&#39;t get me wrong, I still give it Hel! on the trails, and I have not lost my need for speed, but I am definately riding more conservatively than last year.

My second point... I know we are all seasoned veterans here and would never think of not doing this but for the love of snow PULL YOUR SLEDS OFF THE @#$% TRAIL. *It seems like the most common sense thing, but it never happens. Rarely do I come up on a group of sleds that are all pulled single file into the powder - in a nice open area. *They are always parked on a corner with some guy from the back coming up to talk to the guy in front and they are double parked on the trail. *Please people use your heads. *

OK it was more like 4 cents worth

It all boils down to responsible driving. *It is VERY wrong for people to be parked on the trail. *If you were to hit them, they would have definately been in the wrong no questions asked. *You just have to watch out for other people doing careless stuff like parking on the trail. *IMO

Paul,

Until now this conversation has been on an intelligent, logical level - wether or not they have agreed with me. I thought you were above notes like that, I&#39;m disappointed. Wasn&#39;t seeking votes for right or wrong, or somebody to count them.
If I had been, I&#39;d have quit a while ago, and we would have missed out on a lot of stuff that&#39;s been written since. There have been a lot of thoughts written to be shared on the subject of speed and responsibility, obviously touchy subjects among riders. That&#39;s what it&#39;s about Paul, I fail to see the point of taking it to a personal level.

AL

ok I am back from a weekend of riding in tug hill ny *they have something up there called snow. *Have not seen much of it this winter. *anyway to the subject at hand Had and saw *first hand the crazy , stupid or idiot on the trail and would like to share this with everyone. *while crossing an open field on a very wide area of trail MY buddy who is a first time rider was following me we got passed by two sleds going very fast over a slight hump they passed me and had time to get to the right on the hump but the third sled almost hit another sled coming the other way head on
while he was passing me. *I was going about 40 mph the trail went into a wooded area and narrowed down to only enough room for two sleds at best. *It irritated me enough that I did something I normaly would not do and I did it without taking *time to think through . *I punched the throttle and chased those three sleds. *now I ride a 550 twoup panther and I chased those sleds on a very curvy rough narrow wooded trail. *I could tell the guy in front of me was not always in control of his sled and should not have been riding the speed he was riding. *It is a good thing the trail was not long and the two in front of him were waiting at the next intersection. *As *I pulled up beside the three and was going to let them know how stupid I thought they were the rest of the group pulled up *now I am way out numbered ( I might be crazy but I am *no fool http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif so I kept my mouth shut * They did seem suprized to see a differnt sled in the group *as soon as the rest of the group got there they took off again and I waited for my buddy . *MY buddy told me that the guy I followed just missed the other sled by inches. * *Now I am wondering was I wrong to chase them? *I ended up doing the same thing that I was upset at them for. *although I was following at a safe distance to stop if the guy in front crashed or if *he would have hit anyone coming the other way. *I did find out that a 550 panther will keep up with that person even though he was riding a faster sled. *and I did enjoy the thrill of riding to the max of the sled and my ability. *
However keep in mind I would not ever even think of riding on that trail like that if I were the first sled. * MY question is and I would like some opions and what would you do in a situation like that? * I am not sure that I was totaly wrong and yet I am not sure I was right.

Alindazip you were right to do it. Last year me and a buddy were going thru a tight woody trail going at a safe pace maybe 30 he was in front comeing to a blind corner and all of a sudden this sled comes flying at us we all locked tracks trying to brake and the back of the guys sled and mine were maybe 6 inches apart. The only thing that kept us from chasing him down was we couldn&#39;t turn around.

Man, we are getting right down to it aren&#39;t we? Passing is a whole new can of worms bound to bring some passion in among us. I know I have some pretty strong feelings about this. I&#39;m wondering if we shouldn&#39;t start a new string though?

AL

Hanging out in the middle of the trail is like standing in the middle of an highway it&#39;s no place to be NOT A GOOD PRACTICE. Can&#39;t think of any reason why I would have my child in the middle of the road *. Can you thundercatzr?

snow ryde - I don&#39;t understand your question directed to me. *Care to expand so I might respond?

I can&#39;t understand why I would have my child in the middle of the road either, nor do I understand why you might think I do. *I am not an idiot

If you think I disagreed with Al (Michahicks) concerning people being in the middle of the trail, I never did. *He is right - those people were idiots. *No one should be on the trail. *Al and I just disagree on riding styles - we had a fine discussion and agreed to disagree on that point alone.

Have I missed something here?

sorry thundercatzr I should have read all the responses on this topics *before directing my comment toward you . *Won&#39;t happen again . I guess I didn&#39;t get the point Al was trying to make anyway .But I do know this that people who stop in the middle of the trail anywhere in a corner,before a corner, after a corner, on a straight away doesn&#39;t matter where are the irresponsible ones and affect alot more riders on the trail then a few buddies running on each others bumbers . * * * * * * RYDE LIKE THE WIND

snow ryde - "and affect alot more riders on the trail then a few buddies running on each others bumbers "

On that I agree 100%. *Stopping in, or on the trail is an accident waiting to happen. *No place for it.

"ryde" safe buddy!

Guys,
Please join us, new string, passing. Would love to hear your thoughts.
AL

michahicks, You must realize by now that people want to disaggree with you, therefore they make their own sinerio(sp)... not even realizing what you are trying to say.
I read your 1st post, I understand, I agree, *It&#39;s simple but people want to make it hard... maybe it makes them feel smarter pointing out things they think you do not know, i dunno.

yammyrider -

" maybe it makes them feel smarter pointing out things they think you do not know, i dunno."

wrong. *completely.

I know full well what he is saying. *I don&#39;t agree with him and we had a good civilized discussion about it, and it was one of the better threads I have been involved in. *He has his riding style, I have mine, and we both have our opinions on each other&#39;s. *No one says we have to agree. *I respect his opinions and he respects mine. *Al is one of the more articulate people on this board and conveyed his feelings on the subject very well.

I never attempted to point out anything he did not know, nor did I assume he did not know it - the man has displayed every characteristic of being a non-idiot.

There. *I pointed out something YOU did not know. *And I still don&#39;t feel smarter.

Cheers and Happy Sledding.

Scott

Yes people that stop on the trail on a blind corner ar idiots but the point thunder is trying to get out is that running at high speeds with little dist between sleds going into a blind corner is just an accident waiting to happen.I have been rearended by people that think it is fine to run this close.At speeds people,I don&#39;t care who you are,DO NOT have enough reaction time to avoid a acident safely this is why I now ride in the back.I don&#39;t Like laying,unexpectedly,over the hood of someones machine because they were following too close and did not see the brake light in time to react with out slaming into the back of my sled.This is from personal experience as I did end up laying over the hood of a 97 zr580 because of this.

One more post here, then I quit.

Yammyrider,
I think you&#39;ve made a good point. There are obviously people doing what you are describing, its not hard to see. It is easy to see past them though, they have nothing new to add to the subject. They have fun sitting at their console, arms folded across their belly, trying to find things wrong with what you are saying. The subject at hand isn&#39;t even relevant. They don&#39;t have to know anything about it that way. It would be really neat to see some of these people spending as much time thinking about what they could add to a conversation, rather than the criticism. They want to talk about the rules, not about why the rules are there.

My attempt here was to create sparks to try to get guys to drop the defenses that jerks like those above evoke, and just write down what they are thinking, for all of us to share, without fear of the stampede of criticism. My major hope is that the few who actually had the balls to take part, had as much fun with it as I did. There were a lot of feelings brought out, and I&#39;m sure a lot of thought went in to some of the conversations.

Thundercatzr, thank you, for the conversation, and the compliments. I look forward to the next time we find something to disagree on. I don&#39;t believe it was you that Yammyrider was refering to at all.

AL

Going back and reading Als lil story makes me think.Seems to me Al say"Coming out of a corner and entering a straight section,there were older sled PARKED off the trail".Now maybe they did hear you coming Al and the child had ran out in the trail with the mother trying to catch(the kid). Did you ever think that JUST maybe she was a first time sledder? How can a first time sledder tell how far you are from them?Or cant deaf people enjoy the sport we all love also? Seems to me Al that if I would have came out of a corner and SEEN the sleds sitting there PARKED off the trail I would have slowed down for whats called common coritsey.So next time you say WHAT were they thinking,THINK YOUR SELF if you see sleds setting next too or off the trail SLOW down.Snowmobile safety is something we should all be aware of, not saying we all love the need for speed but remember this is a FAMILY sport also.

So I lied about quiting. Letters like the one preceding are exactly what Yammyrider was talking about.

Snocat14,
Slowing down for the crowd, then braking hard for the people in the trail is exactly what I did and wrote of. What is your point? Or didn&#39;t you continue reading before you decided to criticize me? If you had, I&#39;m sure you would have read that this woman and child were passed with plenty of room, at a walking speed.

My assumption on the woman was the same as yours, a first time sledder, but with presumably no guidance from the sled owners. Your point that the child may have taken off is well taken, that would actually make sense, except the woman was kneeling in the trail with her back to me fiddling with his (her) coat. If she had been chasing a toddler because of oncoming sleds, our eyes would have met at some point. As it was, they never did. I never saw her acknowledge my presence. Not relevant anyway. Point is they were in the trail.
(Sorry, that&#39;s still a pretty vivid picture in my mind)

The potential for having 10 or 12 deaf people on the side of a trail is pretty remote, wouldn&#39;t you think? I can&#39;t believe you would even say something like that, let alone reprimand me for not thinking about safety, that thinking snowmobiling was not a family sport or for not having "whats called common coritsey". Why would you think I&#39;ve taken the time for the original note, let alone all the replies, if I weren&#39;t concerned about safety? Maybe YOU should THINK before responding to a note with such criticism, this one, or any other for that matter...

AL, Flame suit ON!

I am surprised at the reactions that have been recorded in this discussion. Especially early on from Mr. Yarek and Thundercatzr. You two are veteran riders and I am surprised at how quickly you passed judgement on Al&#39;s story, condeming him to defending himself for the entire topic. I understand that the trail system in Michigan is well maintained and mostly very wide. What difference does it make at how he rides?? No one can ride only a sled length apart fast...there is too much snow dust kicking up and it is very hard to maintain a similar speed to the sled in front. Ever notice how things look closer from a sled when you are behind them than from a lateral view? I&#39;m sure you have. It may have seemed like they were only 1 sled length apart. Al forgive me if I am wrong on that. If I am I would like to see your group ride! *http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
* * * Anyway, back to the original topic, which was simply avoidable obstructions on the trail. The only one of us that actually saw the situation was michahicks. The rest brought to the table their interpretations of the story, with many jumping on the band wagon built by Paul and Scott. There is no reason that Al should have to defend himself on this site.
* * * I&#39;ve had alot of time thinking about this discussion and am frankly kind of embarrassed at the harrassment michahicks took. And that was from his friends! No wonder snowmobilers are under attack....we jump to conclusions about our OWN! What happened to trusting people to ride responsibly??
* * * *I am not criticizing the reply&#39;s in this discussion. I am stating my thoughts just as everyone else did. It was a good discussion and revealed alot about the attitude of some of the users on these forums. Now you know mine.
* * * * Now I am sure that there are those of you that can and most likely will jump all over this reply to have the last word. I will go on record saying that I do not think that michahicks is an irresponsible rider. I do not consider him a danger to the public. Please remember that this is all subjective, and that you can&#39;t always take things at face value. Especially stories such as these.

* * *And that&#39;s my 100 bucks worth. I believe that is my longest post ever, and may even rival those of Machzzz1 http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

* * * * * *Copies of my book "Our own worst critics" will be on sale starting March 1 through the snowmobileworld.com administration and Amazon.com http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif *http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

rocket,
*you see it differently than i do.

seeing things different is what makes people so interesting and life exciting. *I mentioned before I enjoyed the posts. *and have learned from them to me that is the purpose of good discussions on any topic. * *
what do you think rocketman and michachicks. *is it time to lock this topic?? *or is it interesting enough to continue.

one thing i do know is that when a cop goes to an accident he would sooner have one witness than ten witnesses. one witness one story, ten witnesses ten stories. ask a cop. so once again we all see things different.

If everyone saw everything exactly the same we would all ride the exact same sled at the exact same speed on the exact same trail. We wouldnt have to worry about anyone stopping in the trail because we&#39;d all have to pee at the same time. How much fun would that be? Not much! To each his own!
* * * * * * * *Ryan

It is differences of opinion that made this one of the more interesting posts that I have been involved in. *We had a great discussion.

Rocketman - Machzzz1 still has you beat for lengthy posts - I actually printed one of his and read it in the john once! *It was a long one.....

For what it is worth, I re-read the thread and stand by my posts. *As does Al. *We have agreed to disagree and life goes on.....

Happy sledding!

Scott/thundercatzr

I agree 100% that the diversity among us is what makes this so interesting and the reason I keep coming back for more. I also believe that criticism, a lot of times, can be contructive, others times it can be mindless. I thrive on the contructive, it was my primary goal along with the warning to all to be on your gaurd for "situations". I believe that goal has been accomplished and there are still interesting comments being generated because of it. I have no problem letting them continue and would encourage any and all but may I ask that they be held until the entire string has been read (get it straight Bud&#33http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and there has been some thought behind the comments added.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone that has responded. If I were easily offended I would have taken Paul&#39;s advice and deleted my note early on. Frankly, I&#39;m overwhelmed by the positive thoughts and support generated for the most part. I also believe that new friends have been made, mostly because it has been shown that despite our differences, it has been proven that among ourselves, we have even more in common. Nice to see people sticking up for what they believe in. Good things follow when that happens.

I&#39;d like to apologize for my last post, Snowcat14. Not for what I said, but how I said it. I&#39;ve been encouraging responses from people with their thoughts with one hand, then ripping on them when they do with the other? It was not called for, and could have been handled in a much more positive manner.

One more point, then I&#39;ll get off my soap box, this is getting long. Rocketman brings up a good point about riding a sled length apart. Although we really were when we came around that corner, it doesn&#39;t happen often. We hadn&#39;t been riding like that long, maybe a mile or two. It was more of a sprint. I still do not believe we endangered anybody (yea, I know, Thundercatzr, except ourselves) for nobody but those among us knew it happened, or does on any other occasion we are able to. We are a safety oriented group and Rocketman is exactly right, there is a lot of snow dust generated by the time you get back to the 3rd or 4th sled. For the conditions to be right there must be enough wind coming from your side to keep vision to necessary levels.

So think about this, in passing situations, the speeds involved can be a LOT higher than we were running at, the distances between the sleds a lot closer, the competency levels of those involved unknown, the trails may not be familiar, and anger and impatience can be involved, yet that string doesn&#39;t seem to be developing anywhere near the passion this one has. What&#39;s up with that? Anyone?

Would you think it would help if I were to post a note that everyone could take shots at me over? http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

AL

Al, should a woman have a kid in the center of the trail. No.
Maybe you should have stoped and told them about the danger.
I think that would have helped more and you may have found out something was wrong
or if they had a problem.

"People, I&#39;m trying to steer this conversation to be about responsibility, and the
question is: Assuming you are comfortable at speed, have you considered, and are
you willing to accept, the consequences of your actions? Completely?"

You are accepting the consequences of your actions. But the consequences WILL impact much more than just YOU! I understand this COMPLETELY!

Hey Al apologize accepted.I ment no offence by my statements, but without all the facts everyones going to have a input to your story or situation.I"m not one to critize people and I hope you wouldn&#39;t be the same.As I stated even Hearing Impaired people have the right to enjoy the beauty of winter in the mountains.And maybe they were inexperienced riders on rental sleds.And without stopping you accumed the woman and her group was drinking or drunk. I find it hard to believe that on a family outing that people would be drinking and driving sleds(sort of shows your kids its all right to drink and drive?).I have to laugh out load at your comment on how I didn&#39;t read all your story(went back and had to read it 4 times) to see where I missed the part of passing at walking speed ,sorry still cant find it there Al maybe you can point it out to me"lol".Here in Wa. State we dont have the trail systems you guys have(we have gromed trails which are logging roads that are winding and twisting roads getting us to open meadows or hill climbs)and as for us there is no speed limit either. We also enjoy the occasionally road racing so maybe we all have learnered something from the story.Like toydoc says stopping and telling inexperienced riders of the dangers of stopping on the trail when exiting a corner(which was never said which way there sleds were going,with Al and his group or heading in the other direction?).Had the other group been going in the opposite direction then (Al) they did do the right thing by stopping before the corner so that riders going in there direction could see them.So with this I leave my comments and no offence Al,just a concerned sledder like yourself(30 yrs experieced sledder).Toydoc loved your comments and makes me stop and think myself http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forums/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I dont know where this conversation is at but from reading micahicks first post my opinion is that micahicks was riding responsably otherwise he wouldnt have stoped intime. *

The stupidity belongs to the people in the middle of the trail. *No one stops in the middle of a highway and a trail is just as bad. *

When you need to pullover on a highway you go to the sholder. *Same should be done on the trails.

If in a worst case sinario micahicks accually struk the people in the trail i would still stand behind him and say its not his fault. *The snow and conditions change all the time and there is no set rule that says at 50km i will be able to stop in 10 m. *

If he hit them no dought he would be blaimed for it and probably in a lot of trouble and every anti snowmobiler would have a hayday. *But what can you do. *If i were coming accross the top of a hill doing the limit and theres a women and kid there I would probably veer of into the ditch but somtimes it just doest work out that way. *

Lets not kid ourselfs and pretend snowmobiling is safe. *Trail riding should be considered a extream sport because of all the people on it not using there heads.