what do you guys think.. I have an 04 f-cat and i really like the looks of the of the apex gt. I havnt driven one yet but i drove a vector. im starting to think that 4 stroke is the way to go the way gas prices are headed!

You should go for the SDI if you want to save on gas and oil, and keep a two stroke 600. Just my two cents, but i am a die hard two stroker.

I've ridden an Atac, and could honestly say it could be my next sled. Nice torque, good mileage, well built. The only thing that would hold me back would be price, but with Cat's Z1 in the same price range, why not go with the Yammie?

(Did i really just say that?)

REB

Go with the Yamaha. I just switched from Poo to Yamaha and I can't believe the difference. The motor is incredible and the fit and finish is second to none. You shouldn't buy a 4 stroke for the gas savings. The new EFI motors from Yamaha do get better mileage but not enough to justify the cost of the machine. I know one thing, my wife likes it when I come home and I don't smell like 2 smoke!

To me it all depends on what kind of snowmobiling you like to do.
If you stay on the trail all the time, mostly ride when the trails are in pretty good shape, and like doing lots of faster trails, the the Apex is a good choice, no doubt. It's smooth, looks and sounds nice, it's comfortable, and at least as reliable as anything else you might buy.

If however, you like getting off the beaten path, like riding ditches, if you seek out rougher trails and like to test yourself against big moguls, stay away from the big 4-strokes. Their suspension is getting better, but Yamaha is still not aiming these sleds at the serious ditch banger or powder player, and it's impossible to hide that weight.
A new F-6 Sno-Pro, Blizzard or IQ would be a much better choice.

And then you'll still have the joy of coming home smelling like a 2-stroke, which I love.

I think that the Yammies are top of the line sleds but....

The four stroke motor in a sled just isn't my bag... I love the 450 in my quad but when it does come time to rebuild them (like now with my quad) the cost is CRAZY!!!!

For instance...

A two stroke will set you back like $150 a year for a top end (if you do it every year). My quad will cost me like ~$2K for a new motor (crank, valves, springs etc....).

They may last a little longer but are WAY more expensive to get power out of and repair...

what do you guys think.. I have an 04 f-cat and i really like the looks of the of the apex gt. I havnt driven one yet but i drove a vector. im starting to think that 4 stroke is the way to go the way gas prices are headed![/b]


Getting back to your original question, the F7 will beat the Apex, but an F6? I don't know. At our Grass Drags, the Apex's were cleaning out the 600 class in a big way (the 4-Stroke races in the 600 class). Be fun to try it.

I traded my RX-1 with 3500 miles on it in on a new Attak-never had a single mechanical failure for the entire time I owned it-I hope to be able to say the same thing after a few years on the Attak! On the 4-strokes, the 1st engine opening is scheduled at 25,000 miles for a valve adjustment. May cost a lot for a whole engine, but it won't nickel and dime you every year.

Getting back to your original question, the F7 will beat the Apex, but an F6? I don't know. At our Grass Drags, the Apex's were cleaning out the 600 class in a big way (the 4-Stroke races in the 600 class). Be fun to try it.

I traded my RX-1 with 3500 miles on it in on a new Attak-never had a single mechanical failure for the entire time I owned it-I hope to be able to say the same thing after a few years on the Attak! On the 4-strokes, the 1st engine opening is scheduled at 25,000 miles for a valve adjustment. May cost a lot for a whole engine, but it won't nickel and dime you every year.[/b]
Why does the Apex race in the 600 class? With it's hp rating it should be in the 800 class, don't you think, with the Nytro running against 600's. I suppose though, if your race club has decided on 1000cc of 4-stroke being equal to 600cc of 2-stroke then it's hard to say that one litre class sled can race in that class but not another. Still, it's got to pi$$ off alot of 600 owners that they're forced to run against sleds with a 30hp advantage.

I've seen a few RX-1's towed home with mechanical problems, though admittedly, none of them because of engine issues. But the rest of the sled breaks just like any other.

Why does the Apex race in the 600 class? With it's hp rating it should be in the 800 class, don't you think, with the Nytro running against 600's. I suppose though, if your race club has decided on 1000cc of 4-stroke being equal to 600cc of 2-stroke then it's hard to say that one litre class sled can race in that class but not another. Still, it's got to pi$$ off alot of 600 owners that they're forced to run against sleds with a 30hp advantage.

I've seen a few RX-1's towed home with mechanical problems, though admittedly, none of them because of engine issues. But the rest of the sled breaks just like any other.[/b]

Too true abnout other parts breaking. The Apex running in the 600 class is COSDRA rules. It does #### off the other 600 class people, but then again they are the ones making fun of the weight issue too. I think there will be some adjustments as weight is reduced and such. The Phazer runs in the 500 class and it is a 500 and kicks the crap out of the class. Like I said, there will likely be some adjustments. Probably the 700 class would be a better fit for the 1 litre sleds.

Probably the 700 class would be a better fit for the 1 litre sleds.[/b]
The 700 class is where the RX-1's were placed in Newfoundland for drag races. I don't know what they did for Vectors or the newer Phazers, though I can't imagine a Phazer beating a Firecat 5 or an XC 500. We're talking a 20-25 hp disadvantage, with no weight advantage.

I wish they'd do drag racing around here in Ontario, but all they do are those stupid speed runs. BORING! Watching one sled at a time run a straight line up the lake is NOT my idea of exciting racing.

Get 5 sleds at a time, that's fun. The Phazer have the monster gearing, so they don't get up all that top end, but what there is, they get there quickly. I think the top speed on them is on the 70's possibly 80 but not much more than that.

Like I said, there will be adjustments as time goes on, but who knows, with Cat's entry into performance 4-stroke territory and if the Polaris FST gets it's bugs all worked out (and maybe even ski-doo makes a performance 4 stroke someday), they may go to a 4-stroke race class of their own. We tried a few years back having a 4 stroke class, had 3 entries, year beofre last we had none and the last 2, they've been running against the 600s.

Like I said before it's the same 'RX-1 Ton' detractors that are now complaining that they have to race these big heavy slow moving monsters. A little inconsistency in the belief system, me thinks.

I got a new Attak and I managed to put 240 miles on it and I can say that I am very happy with it. 4-stroke is the way to go. Compared to my renegade 600sdi that I had, no compareson. I had a lot of problems with my sdi (2 pistons) and it had a huge bog in the bottom end and the revs would cut out at top speed. The attak has amazing throtte response and pretty good top speed. the suspension and chassis work very well, the riding style is close enough to a rev chassis for me

I can't imagine a Phazer beating a Firecat 5 or an XC 500. We're talking a 20-25 hp disadvantage, with no weight advantage.[/b]

You haven't seen a Phazer in a 660 ft.race have you?

But the rest of the sled breaks just like any other.[/b]

LMAO at this one of your Yamaha claims.
Go to ANY multi-line sled dealer that sells Yamaha and ask the service manager, based on the number of sled sold, which brand they do the most warranty work on, paid work on or sell the most parts for. You will get one answer ........ no matter where you ask.

Whatever you say, I just know they still get towed home. Even if it's not a warranty item, and is a result of owner error, all I'm saying is that way too many people think that by spending lots of extra money up front on a Yamaha they will never have to worry about repair costs, and that simply isn't true.

Well if you liked the Vector you'll love the Apex's 30 more hp and fuel injection. I agree with Newfiebullet that an Apex is not a good choice for a ditch banger. I've never riden the trail sled but the Apex Mtn is great handling off trail (tippy on the trail).

Most of the trails are mogle after mogle to the alpine in the west. I don't have any problem keeping up with skidoo 07 800's through the rough.

Hmmm, lets see what my 06 Attak has cost me after 3500kms. 4 idler wheels, 1 pair hyfax, 3 complete front ends (a-arms, bushings and bolts), 2 oil changes (pricey synthetic), 1 oil strainer cover and gasket (before I purchased the belly pan). And now it sits at the dealer with an electrical problem that prevents it from firing. Nothing out there compares as far as looks, sound and throttle response, but I don't know if I can afford to keep it just because it looks good on the trailer. That Polaris Dragon is looking mighty appealing. Polaris is the only brand i haven't any first hand experience with.

3 complete front ends (a-arms, bushings and bolts), ........ 1 oil strainer cover and gasket (before I purchased the belly pan).[/b]

Correct me if I'm wrong ...........but I don't think these were the sled's (or Yamaha's) fault

Correct me if I'm wrong ...........but I don't think these were the sled's (or Yamaha's) fault[/b]
It still costs to fix. And I've seen jackshaft bearings go, idler wheels, whatever, it still breaks like any other.

I wish I had my other computer here, though I did post the pic I'd like to show you a couple of years ago. A friend with a RX-1 mountain hit a rock at about 10 mph, and rather then just bending the a-arms, it ripped the a-arm (lower) out of the bulk-head. The machine, less than a year old, was a write off.

I've hit trees at 20 mph or better on both my Polaris and my Cats, and the fix was easy. A trailing arm and shock rod on teh Polaris, was on the snow for less then $300. The Cat was a little more because I had to replace 2 arms, but at least the bulk head was undamaged.

Now perhaps that's a problem we're going to see with all modern sleds as they move to stiffer and stiffer chassis' and components, but the fact remains. Buying a Yamaha does not mean you'll never have to worry about repair costs.

Hayastusa, the Dragon is sweet, and came with a 4 year bumper to bumper warranty. Excluding crash damage of course. :lookaround:

I'm to blame for not putting a skid plate on right away, but I don't know about the rest. I tried to crawl the sled over some deadfall and a stump pushed through that flimsy, cardboard inspection plate and snapped a fin off the Strainer cover and spilled the oil in about 2 seconds (if you don't have a skid plate...get one now). Could've dragged the belly of my Cat over the entire log without incident.
The a-arms were bending under what I consider to be "normal" driving conditions (well maybe a bit more extreme than average) :thumbsup:. If the a-arms were adequate, why did Yamaha reenforce them with extensive gussetting on the 07 models? Took a look at a 1000 crossfire today...I like. :devil:

The a-arms were bending under what I consider to be "normal" driving conditions (well maybe a bit more extreme than average) :thumbsup:. If the a-arms were adequate, why did Yamaha reenforce them with extensive gussetting on the 07 models? Took a look at a 1000 crossfire today...I like. :devil:[/b]

No offence, but I'd be really curious to see the conditions you're riding in to be bending all these A arms. The other thing is that even though Yamaha's A arms might be more expensive than Cat's, I'd be really leery about strengthening them. Bulkhead damage on ANY brand of sled is way more expensive to fix than any arms. (btw, I had a buddy hook a stump on his XFire last week. about $250 for new upper and lower arms, bolts etc......but it took 2 of us 3 hours to change them (half the from end of the sled needs to come apart, not at all like your Attack). If you were paying a dealer to do this job, the Cat and Yamaha would cost about the same in my estimation.
(Don't get me wrong, if I wasn't driving a 4 stroke, I'd have a Crossfire.....my Warrior has a Crossfire skid in it).

Hey newfiebullet. What's the price tag on the Dragon?

That's a good question, and I've heard a lot of different prices out there. I spring ordered mine, and got a really good price ($11,000 CAN) but I've heard of lots of people paying full list (somewhere around 12,500) and even more in the states, where they seem to be going for a few hundred over list, though I don't know what the list there is.
I spring ordered mine after making a deal with the Yamaha dealer for an 06 Nytro demo for the exact same price! There was no way I could justify paying the same money for a Nytro that was a year older then then Dragon with 4 yrs warranty.
I was really looking forward to trying the 4-stroke thing for a few years, but it'll have to wait now.

Very wise decision. Congratulations on the new sled.

I wish I had my other computer here, though I did post the pic I'd like to show you a couple of years ago. A friend with a RX-1 mountain hit a rock at about 10 mph, and rather then just bending the a-arms, it ripped the a-arm (lower) out of the bulk-head. The machine, less than a year old, was a write off. :lookaround:[/b]

Write off???
Go to Ronnies ..... 2003 RX-1
Left or right bulkhead = $307.00USD
Upper A arm = $90.00
Lower A arm = $160.00
12 hrs labor @ $100/hr = $1200
$1500 repair - expensive yes, but enough to write off a new (less than a year old sled)
Your story ain't adding up.

Like I said, I'll post a pic the next time I'm on my comp. I found the thread today, but the pics are no longer there.
I don't know what you mean by left or right bulkhead. The section I'm talking about is under teh motor, and there's no left or right, it's the whole thing. The same section (relative) is now fucced on my XCR, and it's no small job to replace. It's basically get a new sled and bolt all the parts to it.

Like I said, I'll post a pic the next time I'm on my comp. I found the thread today, but the pics are no longer there.
I don't know what you mean by left or right bulkhead. The section I'm talking about is under teh motor, and there's no left or right, it's the whole thing.[/b]

If the damage to your buddies sled that caused it to be written of was only the A arm mounts being yanked out ....the cost of chassis parts to repair is $300 + 12 hrs labour + new A arms if they are damaged.
I know someone who needed this done (culvert) and the repair bill from the dealer was $1600 USD.
I'd be curious to see your pics.