I was watching a intro for the sled on Snowgoer.com

they said it is a 1100cc engine with peak hp at 8300 rpm of only 125hp?
how is it the a 698cc F7 engine can make 140?


thought this was a little odd..maybe someone can clear this up for me

I'm guessing it's a 4 stroke...yep - http://www.arcticcat.com/snow/sled.asp?id=811

Even tho..introducing first four stroke in 2003..you would think the manufacturers would've found away to to get some REAL power out of the fourstrokes..

new yamaha's are putting out 150 out of a 4stroke?
why is ac so far behind on design

Yamaha finessed a 4 stroke motorcycle engine into a sled frame.

Arctic Cat, Polaris and Skidoo had to start further back on the drawing board.
Some may argue that they could have wrestled a PWC or an ATV motor into their sleds but the two uses require significantly different designs that would be pretty pricey. I'm not saying that the other 3 can't do it. It's just that they have chosen not to for various reasons that many brand faithful have questioned at every new model launch. Let's hope that decision isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Jeff

Yeah I learned recently that all the pro motocross bikes now are 4 stroke and have been for a few years. Watch the VS network for half a lap and there is no doubt. I'm guessing that's because on a bike you have a regular geared transmission where you need good power at a range of rpm, instead of a CVT transmission in a sled where you need all your power at essentially one target rpm. So my theory is the inherently better power band of the 4-stroke works better with such gear shifting even if a 2-stroke of similar weight could produce better peak horsepower. I can't think of another reason why 4 stroke engines are light and powerful enough for motocross but yet the 4-stroke sleds are so heavy and/or underperformers.

I would agree that the four strokes are heavier then the 2 strokes, but under performers I don't agree with...Yamaha four strokes are winning races in both snocross and oval ..There are not too many high hp. sleds that will pull away from a Apex on the trails or lakes..The RX 1 holds the fastest 1/4 mile speed on asphalt....Modded of course....Under performers I don't think so ....The Z1 is a very nice sled, maybe underpowered but I am sure Cat is working on a better 4 stroke...

Don't imagine the target market of that Cat is a lake racer, more of a long run groomed trail rider. In that category people are looking for reliability, low maintenace, fuel economy and ride quality.

An heck, 125hp is not bad!

I have to agree with Cory9 on this one,,, is there a chance that this sled wasnt meant for the guy who was used to driving a tcat or zr900 lake racing??? This sled was put together for the guy who is the trail cruiser who wants the benefits of the 4 stroke over the 2 stroke. Had they came out and pushed this as the sled for the guy who was tired of the mach or zr900 and wanted the fastest 4 stroke around, then there would be a problem,,, but they didnt.
One thing I can see in the very near future is a turbo charged version of the jaguar. Cat put a turbo on the t660 and it worked pretty well. I feel they are simply taking their time to make sure they have the version together and done right before putting it out on the market. They may have a couple of other, either higher cc or even lower cc motors (with more hp) that they are working on right now.
Back in 03 when the firecat came out, they already had the basic design for the new f series that was introduced this year. So they are working on things now that we wont see for another 3 or 4 years right now.

<<<One thing I can see in the very near future is a turbo charged version of the jaguar.>>>

Yup, heard that rumor too. Can you say T-cat? (no, the T is not short for Thunder)

Other than the main reason already said about the Jag not intended to be a lake racer, the Jag is only a twin while the apex is a 4 banger.

BTW

Jag Z1 4stroke weighs only 4 YES FOUR pounds more then the F8LXR 2stroke

that is simply amazing

both have electric start and reverse

The Jag Z1 is designed to compete with the Yamaha Nytro class ( which it does) , not the Apex.
By the way, that class, the supposed 120 hp class includes the F6, Doo 600 SDI, and Polaris 600 IQ
Hope I don&#39;t get struck by lightning, defending AC and all. :lookaround: Oh, by the way, most of the motocross riders are on 450 cc 4 stroke dirt bikes, ( mainly cause the manufacturers want them to be ) which are in the the same class as 250 cc 2 stroke bikes.

I have never heard of a Yamaha 4-stroke snowmobile that could get more than 140hp... and the ones that could need to reach the high rpms before they hit the 140hp mark. Unless the &#39;08s have more power? I haven&#39;t researched the 08&#39;s yet :crazy:

Either way, watch Pinks, the 1996 vmax 4 can beat a stock Apex anyway :D (remember, neither were completely stock, and the Apex was burning nitrous the whole way).

Also, the only snocross events I saw where Yamaha 4-stroke won, was with a bunch of sleds with much smaller cc engines anyway. I don&#39;t care what the hp is, we&#39;re not in that world yet :crazy: Now I might be wrong on that though, so please correct me if I&#39;m wrong :)

APEX are 150 + hp

APEX are 150 + hp[/b]

Seriously? So my Fusion has more than 150hp? Good to know! :D (radar run, wasn&#39;t my fusion though, but another stock Fusion; kinda sounds nice when I say it was mine though :D ).

Anyway, jokes aside, I thought it was stated 140 + hp, but I was wrong. Oops again, LOL.

Aside from my stupid remarks on the 4-stroke, lol. I have to say the Yamaha 4 is threatening. Imagine ten years from now? A 4 stroke with more hp and torque per cc than a 2 stroke, more reliable, and no more burning oil. That sounds awesome! And so far, it looks like Yamaha WILL lead.

Speaking of which... I&#39;m looking for a dirt bike... anyone suggest a yammi? I&#39;d love to own one... the first snowmobile I was going to buy was a Yammi :)

I keep forgetting to say something, lol. Sorry for all the posts :crazy:

I think Arctic Cat was looking at an engine for durability, not hp. Look at my 9... it gets great mileage considering it&#39;s engine size. If it had the same hp per cc as my brothers 500, I&#39;d be getting 172 hp. But I&#39;m not. But if when it first came out it CAME with 172 hp, it would probably be dead already. I&#39;d rather see ALL brands produce engines that worked, instead of getting crazy hp just to have it blow up before you get your money&#39;s worth, IMO.

As for the Yamaha comments, that&#39;s exactly what they&#39;re doing (getting the engines to work first, then worrying about hp). And by being the first for snowmobiles, they&#39;ll have the hp perfected that much that the mileage will be perfected before the other brands catch up (it&#39;s a 4-stroke... where&#39;s the 30mpg mark? LOL)

Seriously? So my Fusion has more than 150hp? Good to know! :D (radar run, wasn&#39;t my fusion though, but another stock Fusion; kinda sounds nice when I say it was mine though :D ).

Anyway, jokes aside, I thought it was stated 140 + hp, but I was wrong. Oops again, LOL.[/b]


I think you probably realize - maybe are saying it as well- that speed is not a very precise way to measure horsepower (which is why I&#39;ve actually moved along quicker on a little Indy GT Lite "340" than I have on my 550 Supersport.) We all know which one makes more horsepower - (and also which one is least likely to burn up, blow up, etc.)

The RX 1 the Apex are all rated at 150hp...Now I know you don&#39;t care about horsepower but that is the way it is...On pinks both sleds are rated at 150hp without mods, if you put pipes on that Vmax4 your horse power goes up to 168++, and it all depends how much The Apex is running for NOS, neither sled was stock!!!! On the snocross issue regardless on what you think it goes on horsepower not cc, same as super cross and most drag racing.........

The RX 1 the Apex are all rated at 150hp...Now I know you don&#39;t care about horsepower but that is the way it is...On pinks both sleds are rated at 150hp without mods, if you put pipes on that Vmax4 your horse power goes up to 168++, and it all depends how much The Apex is running for NOS, neither sled was stock!!!! On the snocross issue regardless on what you think it goes on horsepower not cc, same as super cross and most drag racing.........[/b]

Again, if the Vmax 4 was rated at 150hp, then why did Pinks post it as 120hp?

I have to say, hp without torque is useless. Ya need to factor in way too much. Hp alone isn&#39;t enough to know exactly what you&#39;re getting into, but it&#39;s the first step to being happy with the power your machine has, even if you aren&#39;t seeing it at the track :)

Even if it&#39;s rated by hp, it should also be rated by torque. A higher cc doesn&#39;t always mean more hp, but the sleds can have equal hp but different torque; which results in the higher cc guaranteed to win (pulls away quicker). So even if they&#39;re matched by hp, it still is not a fair race.

Im not all about hp and crap..usually look at that last when Im picking out a sled.

but looking at tha tsled..having to be at 8500rpm to create that little horsepower which could be a handful less of torque means it wouldn&#39;t be much use for nothing but on groomed trails..

just my opinion and just a little curious.

thanks

We could go on forever Pepsi if you have all that torque and can&#39;t get it to the ground because of the track, is that a fair race??The fact is you go by horsepower if you find another way to get more torque out of your hp then I guess you might win that&#39;s called racing...The Yamaha Nytro racing sled has the same horsepower with more torque then the competators and it&#39;s not winning all the races...Plain and simple it&#39;s called racing see who can get the most out of there vehicle within the rules to win....

The Jag Z1 is designed to compete with the Yamaha Nytro class ( which it does)[/b]

I would say more Yamaha Vector, IQ FST, etc. (think trail cruiser).

Not Yamaha&#39;s ditchbanger 120 sled...which would compare to the AC F6, MXZ, etc.

I would say more Yamaha Vector, IQ FST, etc. (think trail cruiser).

Not Yamaha&#39;s ditchbanger 120 sled...which would compare to the AC F6, MXZ, etc.[/b]



:withstupid:

I just meant to say, that things have changed a lot in the past few years... at least in snowmobile racing. Two years ago (even last year) most manufacturerd didn&#39;t post hp. Almost all races were based on cc alone. You could say that a race is the ability to get more hp out of the same cc, as much as saying a race is to get more torque out of the same hp.

It&#39;s just an eye opener for me, that, depending on the rules, a race isn&#39;t a real race. My biggest beef went unnoticed... I was simply stating moreso that sleds should race "straight up". In terms of who&#39;s got the craziest setup (hp doesn&#39;t matter; setup can change that) I&#39;d like to see wide open tracks like Nascar, snowmobile style. None of the snowcross crap like the bikes. Yeah yeah, they can do jumps. Wow. That&#39;s otta slow them down... wait... didn&#39;t I pay to see a race? I want to see a merge between snowcross and drag racing, get a nascar type loop, and race snowmobiles on it. After 200 laps, lets see who would win. :) Just for fun anyway, I couldn&#39;t care less who would win, just would love to see it happen! :D

the Jag is only a twin while the apex is a 4 banger.[/b]
I was waiting for someone to say this...that&#39;s the reason the Z1 only has 125hp. I&#39;m hearing a lot of good reviews on the Jag, even from the mags.

I was watching a intro for the sled on Snowgoer.com

they said it is a 1100cc engine with peak hp at 8300 rpm of only 125hp?
how is it the a 698cc F7 engine can make 140?
thought this was a little odd..maybe someone can clear this up for me[/b]

Well, this is an illustration of the primary differences between 2 stoke and 4 stroke engines. At the same RPM the 2 stroke engine has twice as many power storkes as the four stoke engine. The 2 stroke should be able to make more power in that situation.

I was waiting for someone to say this...that&#39;s the reason the Z1 only has 125hp. I&#39;m hearing a lot of good reviews on the Jag, even from the mags.[/b]

In that case, by adding 2 more cyclinders... IMAGINE THE TORQUE YOU COULD HAVE! Talk about a smooth ride! :) The 2 cyclinders must make it a lot lighter, eh?

I have never heard of a Yamaha 4-stroke snowmobile that could get more than 140hp... and the ones that could need to reach the high rpms before they hit the 140hp mark. Unless the &#39;08s have more power? I haven&#39;t researched the 08&#39;s yet :crazy:

Either way, watch Pinks, the 1996 vmax 4 can beat a stock Apex anyway :D (remember, neither were completely stock, and the Apex was burning nitrous the whole way).

Also, the only snocross events I saw where Yamaha 4-stroke won, was with a bunch of sleds with much smaller cc engines anyway. I don&#39;t care what the hp is, we&#39;re not in that world yet :crazy: Now I might be wrong on that though, so please correct me if I&#39;m wrong :)[/b]
My 05 RX-1 had a bit more then 140 hp!! :tongue: