anyone out there that knows about this can fill in what I am leaving out... So im on biskits closet the other day, and notice that the DNR is trying to get contracts with the local clubs, so that the DNR has full ownership of the grommers. am I missing somthing or is michagan a little low on funds? well it apears that they are, and they are trying to cut in on our awesome sport. I know most of the clubs own their groomers, so what gives the state the right to take them? I have donated a hell of alot to various clubs in the u.p thats total BS if they can do that.I also read that the state is putting a cap on how much they can spend a year on grooming and groomers. well wat the hell with the caps that they have posted that will barely be enough for diesel for all year to groom the trails, let alone if one breaks down!!! I guess the DNR is having a hell of a time getting the clubs to sign the grants which isnt any suprise to me, nor are any supporting bussiness owners. lets hear what any of you all know out there???

I thought the Gov. funded all your trails, don't they? What do you guys pay for a permit anyway?

Our trails were groomed before???

The state is in shambles...Numerous programs are being cut and environmentals are the first to go...I should know I'm a state employee who is constantly wondering if my next check is going to cash...It's just nuts here....I wouldn't be supprised if for some reason all of the permit sales got taken out of thier own account and went into the general fund to pay off our debt....This state is a joke...I'd like to thank good ole Jennifer for "Blowing us all away" in five years (her famous speech).... I haven't heard much on the trails but I read the paper every day and listen to the news...I'll keep a closer eye/ear out and if I hear anything I'll update...

Just out of curiousity, who's in power there, the Democrats or the Republicans, and for how long has the current administration been in power?
I remember throughout the 90's the how tough it was here in Canada as the Federal gov cut spending in an effort to eliminate the deficit, but in the end it was worth it. Too bad the current administration is going to pizz it all away in an effort to win the next election.

I believe there is an article about this issue in the latest MSA newsletter, I will dig it up and report. I have not made a club meeting in the past few months, but I know they are still unsure if there will even be a trail down here due to DNR delayed payments.
I have to agree about MI being is shambles. I work for a public college that is heavily funded by the State. Every semester I have to wonder if my program is the one that is on the chopping block due to the millions and millions of dollars we have been shorted in State aid in the past seven years. We are seeing the possibility of entire colleges disappearing in the very near future if something doesn't change.

I know that Jennifer was given a sinking ship, but I gotta say that her leadership skills suck. And with a 15-21% governmental approval rating from Michigan's residents, I sure wouldn't be saddened if her and the entire States legislation were herded off a cliff.

I was born and raised in Michigan and I always said that I would die here. I love the state and what it has to offer. But the longer this goes on, the more and more I think I may end up HAVING to move somewhere else. Not to mention that it is embarrassing living in one of the worst governed states in the nation (and ranked #50 out of 50 for unemployment)

Up state New York sounds better everyday,

Here is the opening page from the snowmobile section of fishweb.com:

Contrary to popular belief the DNR does not do any grooming in the state of Michigan as TV 9&10 news falsely reported last Friday. The Grant Sponsors, local grooming clubs and volunteers, are the ones that do all the work. The DNR controls the funding and the MSA represents the grant sponsors in our never ending battle to get that money to the grooming clubs. This season it is coming down to the wire as the DNR wants to change the rules in the middle of the game so they can keep more of your snowmobile dollars. As it stands right now the Grant Sponsors have refused to sign the current agreement as written. There are many issues involved but it comes down to who gets the money. The DNR who wants to do who knows what, or the volunteers that maintain and groom the trails. There will be a final meeting this week to try and hammer out an agreement the Grant Sponsors can live with. I will be the first to let you know what happens. In the mean time support the local grooming clubs by becoming a member, donating time, or give some money. The MSA is the only group that represents our sport in Lansing and Washington.

The system is in shambles.

Just remember though, it was "Aunt Jen" who busted into the snowmobile trail permit money (the money the DNR set aside from trail passes to build up a bank roll of cash to help buy new contracts, open new trails, etc.....) and took several million dollars that snowmobiliers had put towards the maintenance and preservation of the trail systems.

This was justifiable because other areas of the gov. had not been mindful in spending THEIR money, and went over budget.

If only 15-20% approved, how in the world did she get re-elected?

The snowmobile trail fund is self funded - your $25 trail permit, registrations.
In the past when a club buys a new groomer, the club paid 40%, the other 60% from trail fund grants. It is going to change to 100% from the fund, which the clubs like. The problems is with the loans, fund raisers, the clubs got to cover their 40% of the groomer cost. If these groomers they have now are going to become state property, we want the money back that was put up to cover our loans.

If only 15-20% approved, how in the world did she get re-elected?[/b]

The 15-20% approval rating is the most current figure I saw for our fearless leaders (In the October AAUP news letter).

Oh, and she didn't get re-elected on MY vote, I voted for the shady business man.

So the trail system is State Welfare where all michiganners pay taxes that support it???

well as far as funds yes they are limited and yes they do want clubs to find grants..its really not that hard we just got a brand new groomer for our club....except our club is the only one in michigan that the groomers arent volunteer the club leader pays them pretty well out of the money he makes and the rest for repairs comes from grants....so gaylord has 2 new groomers this year only problem is there new holland sure tracks(crappy) they are great when there running...but the damn things are always broke.....but anywho thats all i know about this really i sat in on thr first groomer metting ....and not sure if everyone knows yet but there was a $40,000 project done to gaylord trails. on old 27 before mancelona road where you used to have to cross the tracks to go to the other side of the road and then cross back over after mancelona road has been avoided you just go straight through now and about 1/32 of a mile down they put a cut off into the woods across the track to the other trail....thats about it

No groomed trails = No trail permit! :thumbsup:

Hey I already said that,,,,somewheres.

I havent bought my trail permit yet and an ontario trail permit could look real good this year if Michigan isnt going to groom,,, if those trips get too expensive, its time to sell the sleds and buy a boat.

I forgot what a groomed trail look's like.....I figured it was first come fist serve on the fresh power............and you only need a trail permit if you get cought,kinda like I'm not speeding till I'm cought.


I had this JOKE thought it just seemed fitting..............



A Japanese doctor says, "Medicine in my country is so advanced that we can take a kidney out of one man, put it in another, and have him out looking for work in six weeks."

A German doctor says, "That is nothing. We can take a lung out of one person, put it in another, and have him out looking for work in four weeks."

A British doctor says, "In my country medicine is so advanced that we can take half a heart out of one person, put it in another, and have both of them out looking for work in two weeks."

The Canadian doctor, not to be outdone, interjected, "You guys are way behind. We took a woman with no brains, sent her to Michigan where she became Governor, and now half the state is out looking for work."

No groomed trails = No trail permit! :thumbsup:[/b]
That works both ways.
No trail permits = No Grooming

But I see Daves thoughts,,,, if they are not going to groom any trails,,, why spend the $ on buying a trail permit. The understanding I had was all the money collected from trail permits was supposed to go to nothing but trails, upkeep, and such. I have heard that $$ was pulled out and went to other agencies outside of the snowmobiling industry. Now if this is true, why is the $ I am spending each year for upkeep of trails being taken out and used elsewhere??? Heck, if its used ANYWHERE but on trails, that isnt right.

All I can say is let's not start rumors. There was no money taken from the trail account. She tried and failed. We all need to buy the trail permits and join a local club. Every little bit helps and I won't quit helping until it's over.

All I can say is let's not start rumors. There was no money taken from the trail account. She tried and failed. We all need to buy the trail permits and join a local club. Every little bit helps and I won't quit helping until it's over.[/b]


HEAR! HEAR!
Not buying a trail permit will only be the start to the end. Support the clubs fighting for your very existance. Lord knows everyone is fighting to get rid of sleds. Stick with the people that are fighting for you. If the tree huggers get rid of your trails, riding anywhere will be outlawed next.

The fine for riding your trails without one will be greater by the time all is said and done.
You're talking $25 right? That's less than 1 tank of gas for your sled.

Jeff

I was not intending on starting any rumors,,, I had read that in a post in here a while back. I didnt know if it was true and only stated that if it was, it wasnt right.
As for the trail permit, I have no problem supporting the trails, but in all honesty, if they are not going to be groomed this year, I will probably end up doing my riding in Ontario this year.

HEAR! HEAR!
Not buying a trail permit will only be the start to the end. Support the clubs fighting for your very existance. Lord knows everyone is fighting to get rid of sleds. Stick with the people that are fighting for you. If the tree huggers get rid of your trails, riding anywhere will be outlawed next.

The fine for riding your trails without one will be greater by the time all is said and done.
You're talking $25 right? That's less than 1 tank of gas for your sled.

Jeff[/b]
The only way I would not buy a permit is if they (the DNR) used our snowmobiling moneys for something other than snowmobiling.

Myself and thousands more snowmobilers belong to state and local clubs that support the trail systems. And we stuff a lot more than $25 in the trail fund jars every year (gladly)

LATEST SNOW AND WEATHER:
Snowmobile Industry Avoids
Trail Shutdown for ’07-’08 Season
DNR & Trail Volunteers Poised to Sign Agreements to Open Trails Dec. 1 Grand Rapids, Mich. – Today the Michigan Snowmobile Association (MSA) announced that trail grooming clubs, known as grant sponsors, reached an agreement with the Department of Natural Resources to avoid a shutdown of Michigan’s snowmobile trails this winter. A prior disagreement regarding ownership rights of grooming equipment threatened to cripple the industry.

“The grant sponsors had very serious equipment ownership concerns that were addressed under the handbook agreement. We were at a critical stage where it could have gone either way, so I am relieved that the industry and the businesses that rely upon it will thrive this winter,” said Bill Manson, Executive Director.

The handbook agreement means that sixty-seven grant sponsors will sign this year’s “Grant Sponsor Handbook” with the DNR. The handbook establishes a binding financial agreement to administer the trail grooming snowmobile program. Trail grooming is absolutely essential to the snowmobiling industry. Trails must be groomed, have visible signage, and be free of debris for safe riding. Moreover, it is mandatory for access to many remote trail networks throughout the state.

The grooming program is funded entirely by snowmobile trail users, and not from tax dollars. User fees are administered by the DNR so the grooming clubs must get reimbursed for purchasing tractors and other equipment. The equipment is very expensive requiring many of the non-profit groups to obtain personal bank loans for purchase and maintenance.

The trail grooming program still would not be possible without the volunteer services of the grant sponsor clubs, which are very passionate about making Michigan’s trails the best in the country. The clubs keep 6,400 miles of trail network operational; last year the grant sponsors groomed over 352,048 trail miles, during a season with poor snowfall.

The trail grooming agreement was facilitated by members of the Natural Resources Commission. Chairman Keith Charters and Commissioner Frank Wheatlake played a key role in resolving the dispute.


“The MSA is thankful for their leadership on this very important issue, and we applaud their service to the public. We would also like to acknowledge the commitment on the part of the DNR to reach this agreement,” said Manson.

Acting on behalf of the DNR was Mindy Koch, Lynn Boyd, and Jim Radabaugh.
Snowmobiling is a crucial segment of Michigan’s tourism economy. It generates over $1 billion annually for the state’s economy through purchase of related goods and services like snowmobiles, equipment, food, lodging, and gasoline. Over 7,000 direct jobs are supported by the state’s snowmobile industry.

“Snowmobiling is absolutely essential to our winter tourism season. We look forward to a successful snowmobiling season that will benefit the entire tourism industry,” said Manson.

The trail grooming sponsors are comprised of snowmobile clubs, business groups, or a combination of both. Snowmobile trails in Michigan are open from December 1st through March 31st.

Thats great news!

Thanks for posting that Mark.

So the trail system is State Welfare where all michiganners pay taxes that support it???[/b]


The grooming program is funded entirely by snowmobile trail users, and not from tax dollars. User fees are administered by the DNR so the grooming clubs must get reimbursed for purchasing tractors and other equipment. The equipment is very expensive requiring many of the non-profit groups to obtain personal bank loans for purchase and maintenance.

The grooming program is funded entirely by snowmobile trail users, and not from tax dollars. User fees are administered by the DNR so the grooming clubs must get reimbursed for purchasing tractors and other equipment. The equipment is very expensive requiring many of the non-profit groups to obtain personal bank loans for purchase and maintenance.[/b]
$25/sled pays for all the machines, feul, and trail maintenance? I'm skeptical.

That is GREAT news!! Truly made my night!!

It is my understanding (and it is 3:00 in the Morning, so my understanding may be a bit loopy) that the 25 bucks helps fund the groomers and fuel.
Many clubs help pay for part of their groomer loans through club fund raisers (radar runs, winterfests, etc ) and even member dues from time to time. Also groomer tip jars located in heavy sled traffic stops help the local area clubs offset costs.

Remember that most groomer operation and trail maintenance is done by VOLUNTEERS. Very few clubs have the ability to pay to groom. During club trail days, members brush, set up, and take down the trails.

I don't think there is any tax payer money dumped into the program.

Can anyone that is conscious verify?

$25/sled pays for all the machines, feul, and trail maintenance? I'm skeptical.[/b]


<span style="color:black">March 1, 2007

A cold, cold wind blows across the Great Lakes state, bringing snow and below-freezing temperatures -- perfect conditions for snowmobiling.

http://www.michigan.gov/images/dnr/SnowGrooming1_189666_7.JPGMichigan&#39;s outdoor enthusiasts rely on cold temperatures and steady snowfall for winter fun. And if they snowmobile, Michigan is ideal for them. Our state offers snowmobile enthusiasts 6,352 miles of trail on the state-designated snowmobile trail system. Along the way, trail users can enjoy easy access to Michigan&#39;s hinterlands through conveniently located trailheads, bridges over waterways and signage that indicates directions or warnings.

The trail system also provides connection with amenities found in towns, such as fuel for the machines and food and lodging for the riders. Many northern communities depend on good snow and lots of snowmobiling visitors for their economic vitality.

But, have you ever wondered how all those trails get maintained?

Enter the dedicated members of snowmobile clubs and local governments acting as trail sponsors. Sixty-six clubs and local agencies currently receive grants from the Department of Natural Resources to maintain snowmobile trails across the state.

The Forest, Mineral and Fire Management Division administers the program in cooperation with DNR&#39;s Grants Management. Grants are paid from the Snowmobile Trail Improvement Fund, which is funded from trail permits purchased by snowmobilers and from snowmobile registration fees.

http://www.michigan.gov/images/dnr/SnowGrooming3_189670_7.JPG"Having local clubs do the grooming has been positive because they take pride and ownership in the job they do for their communities," said Charlie Vallier, FMFM Naubinway Field Office.

A grant is issued to each trail sponsor that specifies the trail segments assigned to them, outlines the work they are to accomplish during the year and provides funding limits for reimbursement of costs. Depending on the terms of their grant, a trail sponsor may be responsible for clearing trees, branches and brush from the trail corridor; grading dips and mounds in the trail; and installing warning and directional signs before the season begins in December of each year.

For this winter, almost $545,000 in grant funding was awarded for this preseason work.

"My contact with the DNR has been very positive, both at Naubinway and in Lansing," said Gary Schupbach, a trail sponsor for the Curtis area. "I&#39;m very pleased with how the program is run."

Trail sponsors maintain the trails during the snowmobile season by regularly grooming the snow surface, replacing signs, repairing fences and plowing parking lots at designated trailheads. More than $3,860,000 was awarded statewide in grants for trail maintenance and related costs for this year&#39;s snowmobile season.

http://www.michigan.gov/images/dnr/SnowGrooming2_189668_7.JPGTrail sponsors also receive grants to purchase trail grooming equipment. Last fall, the snowmobile program purchased 22 groomers and tractors, seven blades for the grooming machines and 24 drags (for smoothing the trail surface) at an additional grant award of $3,390,000.

As the end of winter nears, you may be thinking the snowmobile program closes up shop and waits until the snow flies again. Not true. Often there is a need for larger maintenance projects on the trails, such as installing culverts in small drainage areas or building a bridge over a river or wetland. Trail sponsors may receive grants for these types of projects, with a whole set of requirements to follow.

When carrying out a larger maintenance project, the responsibilities of the trail sponsor may include selecting a licensed professional (such as an engineering firm); overseeing preparation of plans and specifications; applying for permits; advertising for bids; awarding construction contracts; monitoring progress of construction; and coordinating with and reporting problems to a contact person at one of the DNR&#39;s field offices.

"Regular communication between trail sponsors and the DNR is critical for successful completion of maintenance projects," said Richard Kennedy, a resource analyst for the DNR in Lansing.

One such project is the construction of the Thompsonville Bridge, recently completed after several years of work by the Benzie-Manistee Snowbirds trail sponsor group.

This bridge is on the Betsie Valley Trail and spans the Betsie River, a state-designated natural river, near Thompsonville in Benzie County. Great care was taken to design and construct the bridge in compliance with several state natural resources protection laws and avoid negative effects to the river system.

Before the old bridge trusses could be removed, the wood was tested and traces of arsenic were found, so a plan for dealing with the contaminant was prepared. Soil erosion control measures as well as landscaping compatible with the natural river plan also were incorporated into the project. The total cost for the new bridge was about $325,000.

"DNR staff worked closely with the trail sponsor and consulting firm to address issues related to design changes, regulatory requirements, aesthetic and structural considerations, and the needs of trail users," Kennedy said.

For other projects like this, although not quite as complex, another $1.1 million was awarded in grant funds to trail sponsors for 2006-07.

So, the next time you&#39;re out having some winter fun on Michigan&#39;s snowmobile trails, remember the work performed by all those trail sponsors in cooperation with the DNR. </span>

$25/sled pays for all the machines, feul, and trail maintenance? I&#39;m skeptical.[/b]


Hey Newf, I can guarantee you that our Governor is not throwing in any money from the general fund to help with anything connected to snowmobiling.

There are other monies involved though. Every establishment that you can get to by sled and many that you can&#39;t get to by sled have a grooming donation jar on the counter (Most of us give every time we see one) and all of the clubs donate all kinds of man hours and money from memberships. There are a few paid groomer drivers, but 99% of them are volunteers. There is also money from the sale of maps and the advertising that is on the maps. Many of the businesses that benefit fromthe business of slsedders also donate in one way or another.

How many sleds are registered in Michagan? There must be alot.
$545,000
$3,860,000
$3,390,000

=$7,795,000, not including any capital expenses such as bridge building or major improvement projects.

Divided by $25/sled it equals,
311,800 sleds, assuming the money jars would cover the cost of the trail improvements and new bridges etc...

That&#39;s a lot of sleds, but I suppose it&#39;s possible.

I have not seen registered numbers in the past few years, but in 2005 there were just over 400,000 snowmobiles registered in the state of Michigan. And this does not include the thousands of IL, IN, OH, and other state (and providence) snowmoblies that are registered out of state but still buy MI trail permits.
I was only able to find 2004 trail permit sales numbers, but the MSA listed 220,000+ trail permits sold between August 2003 and May 2004.

That is a lot of freakin sleds!

On a side note, with this many sleds that may be on the trail - why is club membership so low?

Going back to the original question for a moment -
I&#39;m sure I&#39;m not the only member of a local Frederick Mi group on here, but for those that are not, this was broadcast from there this morning. Very good news -

This press release came out yesterday from Bill Manson at MSA....
If you dont belong to MSA you should contact them and join......

Snowmobile Industry Avoids
Trail Shutdown for &#39;07-&#39;08 Season

DNR & Trail Volunteers Poised to Sign Agreements to Open Trails Dec. 1
Grand Rapids, Mich. – Today the Michigan Snowmobile Association (MSA)
announced that
trail grooming clubs, known as grant sponsors, reached an agreement
with the Department of
Natural Resources to avoid a shutdown of Michigan&#39;s snowmobile trails
this winter. A prior
disagreement regarding ownership rights of grooming equipment
threatened to cripple the
industry.
"The grant sponsors had very serious equipment ownership concerns
that were addressed under
the handbook agreement. We were at a critical stage where it could
have gone either way, so I
am relieved that the industry and the businesses that rely upon it
will thrive this winter," said Bill
Manson, Executive Director.
The handbook agreement means that sixty-seven grant sponsors will
sign this year&#39;s "Grant
Sponsor Handbook" with the DNR. The handbook establishes a binding
financial agreement to
administer the trail grooming snowmobile program. Trail grooming is
absolutely essential to the
snowmobiling industry. Trails must be groomed, have visible signage,
and be free of debris for
safe riding. Moreover, it is mandatory for access to many remote
trail networks throughout the
state.
The grooming program is funded entirely by snowmobile trail users,
and not from tax dollars.
User fees are administered by the DNR so the grooming clubs must get
reimbursed for
purchasing tractors and other equipment. The equipment is very
expensive requiring many of
the non-profit groups to obtain personal bank loans for purchase and
maintenance.
The trail grooming program still would not be possible without the
volunteer services of the
grant sponsor clubs, which are very passionate about making
Michigan&#39;s trails the best in the
country. The clubs keep 6,400 miles of trail network operational;
last year the grant sponsors
groomed over 352,048 trail miles, during a season with poor snowfall.
- 30 -
The trail grooming agreement was facilitated by members of the
Natural Resources Commission.
Chairman Keith Charters and Commissioner Frank Wheatlake played a key
role in resolving the
dispute.
"The MSA is thankful for their leadership on this very important
issue, and we applaud their
service to the public. We would also like to acknowledge the
commitment on the part of the
DNR to reach this agreement," said Manson.
Acting on behalf of the DNR was Mindy Koch, Lynn Boyd, and Jim
Radabaugh.
Snowmobiling is a crucial segment of Michigan&#39;s tourism economy. It
generates over $1 billion
annually for the state&#39;s economy through purchase of related goods
and services like
snowmobiles, equipment, food, lodging, and gasoline. Over 7,000
direct jobs are supported by
the state&#39;s snowmobile industry.
"Snowmobiling is absolutely essential to our winter tourism season.
We look forward to a
successful snowmobiling season that will benefit the entire tourism
industry," said Manson.
The trail grooming sponsors are comprised of snowmobile clubs,
business groups, or a
combination of both.
Snowmobile trails in Michigan are open from December 1st through
March 31st.

The state of Michigan by far has the most registered sleds.
It’s excellent news for the Michigan snowmobilers that their screwed up government did not abandon the snowmobilers that pour literally billions of dollars into the economy each year!!!

The following is directly from the ACSA (American Council of Snowmobile Associations)
The shear quantity of sleds is overwhelming.
If you have never been to derby week in Eagle River Wisconsin you should check it out.
I think all 1million plus sleds are there at one time. It really is a spectacle to experience.

REGISTERED SNOWMOBILES IN THE U.S.

State # Reg. Snowmobiles
Alaska 33,576
Arizona na
California 19,000
Colorado 33,000
Idaho 50,000
Illinois 54,128
Indiana 17,452
Iowa 45,000
Maine 96,600
Massachusetts 13,000
Michigan 301,805 *
Minnesota 277,290 *
Montana 23,440
Nebraska 2,100
New Hampshire 73,625
New York 146,662 *
North Dakota 21,000
Ohio 19,500
Oregon 16,809
Pennsylvania 45,270
South Dakota 11,691
Utah 27,894
Vermont 41,000
Virginia na
Washington 31,532
Wisconsin 232,320 *
Wyoming 19,060
Total 1,652,754 x est$25.00 pu= $41,318,850

(They did miss one state! Florida= 1 registered snowmobile!)

The grooming program is funded entirely by snowmobile trail users, and not from tax dollars. User fees are administered by the DNR so the grooming clubs must get reimbursed for purchasing tractors and other equipment. The equipment is very expensive requiring many of the non-profit groups to obtain personal bank loans for purchase and maintenance.[/b]

BULL

I am a club director and it takes alot more then $25 permit to run the system

I know what a groomer cost I know what infrastucture cost when operating a traiol system

You guys are helped by the State BIG TIME,

who insures the trails used DNR or MSA
who pays for signage
who pays for trail upgrades


At $180-230 up here we still have short falls

Got to love people who enjoy their government in their back pocket and then say they are not helping out

Why should the DNR aka government be involved,you guys can&#39;t admister it yourselves????

thats right it cost $$$ so with the DNR involved you can cut cost by using taxpayers $$$$ to cover the huge shortfall in $$$

In addition to the $25 trail pass, 2% of gas tax revenue goes to a recreational fund of which 14% of that goes to the snowmobile trail improvement fund. I&#39;m not sure how much that is (I could find out), but I would imagine that it&#39;s is significant.

Also, $19 of the $22 paid in snowmobile registrations fees goes to the snowmobile trail improvement fund and the snowmobile registration fee fund. Most of that $19 goes to the registration fee fund, which is supposed to be used for safety and law enforcement.

...

ever been to central ontario on a weekend afternoon

Like I said you guys whine over $25

$25 to not even start to cover the cost of operating a system

Like I said you guys whine over $25[/b]
who whined over 25 here. I would pay 150 if I could get trails like yours.

Saturday afternoon getting gas could cost you 45 minutes waiting.

I know I wait 30minutes in Central Ont for gas must have been 4 pumps and 40+ sleds

that is what I am saying you get what you pay for

$25 trails is $25 trails

I would love to see $100 here instead of the 180 but I know hpw much it cost to maintain trails and groomers

I&#39;m absolutely sure that in Ont we need more dollars per sled to keep the trails open here, simply because we have some many more kms of trails per sledder.
Puree is right, you can ride for hours here, and not see anybody. Areas we think of as crowded it&#39;s still rare to see more then a few dozen sleds a day.
As they say, you get what you pay for, and getting endless trails with almost no traffic is worth a premium.

That said, I still think it&#39;s impossible to run a trail system off $25/sled without goverment assistence.

FWIW, our $25 trails have been amazing the last few years in the U.P.. :thumbsup: I remember riding through the same areas the I ride now 5 years ago and it was a completely different picture. The difference now is that most areas north of M-28 groom daily if not twice daily, not bad for $25 IMO. :confused:

BULL[/b]


It&#39;s really a sad thing that you know more about our state than we do. When is the last time that you were in Michigan again?

In addition to the $25 trail pass, 2% of gas tax revenue goes to a recreational fund of which 14% of that goes to the snowmobile trail improvement fund. I&#39;m not sure how much that is (I could find out), but I would imagine that it&#39;s is significant.

Also, $19 of the $22 paid in snowmobile registrations fees goes to the snowmobile trail improvement fund and the snowmobile registration fee fund. Most of that $19 goes to the registration fee fund, which is supposed to be used for safety and law enforcement.[/b]

This is who you need to be listening too, someone who works for the States Auditor General :wink:

Like I said before, our trail passes alone "do not" fund our trails. I&#39;d be curious to see how much money comes from the gas tax but I&#39;d bet its a pretty large sum considering the number of vehicles you see on the road every day. :lookaround:

Maybe Renegademike could comment but I believe that the DNR disput had something to do with the clubs possibly over spending. For instance,(just made up numbers) a club goes out and buys a groomer for $250,000 when a $175,000 groomer would have sufficed. The club then gets reembursed for a portion of the $250,000 through grants, trail permits, whatever. Now 6 years later the club needs a new groomer and starts the process all over again. Now the club goes out and sells the old groomer they had and do not put the money towards the new groomer that was partially paid for by the state. I believe these where some of the hold ups on the stateside :confused: . I believe that there are always two sides to every story :wink:.
Later J

This is who you need to be listening too, someone who works for the States Auditor General :wink:

Like I said before, our trail passes alone "do not" fund our trails. I&#39;d be curious to see how much money comes from the gas tax but I&#39;d bet its a pretty large sum considering the number of vehicles you see on the road every day. :lookaround:

Maybe Renegademike could comment but I believe that the DNR disput had something to do with the clubs possibly over spending. For instance,(just made up numbers) a club goes out and buys a groomer for $250,000 when a $175,000 groomer would have sufficed. The club then gets reembursed for a portion of the $250,000 through grants, trail permits, whatever. Now 6 years later the club needs a new groomer and starts the process all over again. Now the club goes out and sells the old groomer they had and do not put the money towards the new groomer that was partially paid for by the state. I believe these where some of the hold ups on the stateside :confused: . I believe that there are always two sides to every story :wink:.
Later J[/b]


Club&#39;s overspending? That&#39;s like saying clubs are over grooming. I don&#39;t see how it can happen. There is a groomer reimbursement limit, it&#39;s closer to $125,000 than $250,000. Most councils and or clubs that are grant sponsors are flat out broke and in debt. They need the residual value of the groomer to pay off the loans when done with the equipment. The DNR was trying to take that away.

I&#39;m the treasurer of our local club and I can tell you that we just get by. We had 15 guys show up today to work on the trail, 15 last Saturday, and we will have another work day Dec. 1st. We don&#39;t get paid for any of that. We drive the groomer all Winter and don&#39;t pay anyone anything for that either. Who benefits from all of this free labor? The local tourist related businesses for one. Diners, bars, motels, gas stations, etc. Second would be the local non members, and out of town people who pay the $25 and that&#39;s it. We don&#39;t mind however. We like getting together and we like a trail near home.

Clubs are the ones that have built this trail system, not the DNR. The DNR grooms zero miles of trail. They do about zero on trail development, trail maintenance, working on groomer repair, ect. When clubs do have money they spend it on the trail.

You are right, the DNR is treating the grant sponsors like they are suddenly going to try to rip off the program. They also had a new requirement in the handbook that said we needed to get DNR permission to fix the groomer everytime it breaks. Imagine how that would spell disaster up north when it breaks on a Friday evening and they have to wait until Monday to "get permission" to fix it. Needless government red tape.

Our program has worked for 30 years, and I believe it&#39;s gotten so much better with just $25 for the trails. I think the clubs should be getting more money, not less. They could pay groomer drivers and pay for trail work. Think how the trails could be better up north if every mile got groomed every night. More groomers and less miles per groomer, paid groomer drives, paid maintenance. How about paying for developing more miles of trail? Now there&#39;s an idea. My rant is now done. Oatie

Club&#39;s overspending? That&#39;s like saying clubs are over grooming. I don&#39;t see how it can happen. There is a groomer reimbursement limit, it&#39;s closer to $125,000 than $250,000. Most councils and or clubs that are grant sponsors are flat out broke and in debt. They need the residual value of the groomer to pay off the loans when done with the equipment. The DNR was trying to take that away.[/b]

Not saying that is the case, just playing devils advocate :devil: .

I believe that there are always two sides to every story :wink:.
Later J[/b]
Truer words have never benn spoken.

Club&#39;s overspending? That&#39;s like saying clubs are over grooming. I don&#39;t see how it can happen. Our program has worked for 30 years, and I believe it&#39;s gotten so much better with just $25 for the trails. I think the clubs should be getting more money, not less. They could pay groomer drivers and pay for trail work. Think how the trails could be better up north if every mile got groomed every night. More groomers and less miles per groomer, paid groomer drives, paid maintenance. How about paying for developing more miles of trail? Now there&#39;s an idea. My rant is now done. Oatie[/b]
Seems like the obvious solution is to charge more for trail permits.
Club&#39;s overspending? Over grooming? If you spend more money then you have, you&#39;re over spending, and if you can&#39;t afford the amount of grooming you need to do, I guess you&#39;re over grooming.

Up the cost of trail permits. You can&#39;t run a snowmobile trail system on $25/sled, even with goverenment subsidies.

I would pay 50$ a year as long as the trails were nice. I have been to some areas that the trails were amazing,,,, I have also been to areas (with good base and snow) only to find the trails rough as can be. I was told they only groomed 3 times a week through the season. Well it looked like it had been 3 months since they groomed. Maybe there was more to that story than I knew also,,,,

If I remember right, trail permits were only 10$ less than 10 years ago. I believe they made the jump to 20$ and then to 25$ last winter. They rumored jumping to 50$ this year and with good trails, thats a 50$ most people would pay with no problem.

I would pay 50$ a year as long as the trails were nice. I have been to some areas that the trails were amazing,,,, I have also been to areas (with good base and snow) only to find the trails rough as can be. I was told they only groomed 3 times a week through the season. Well it looked like it had been 3 months since they groomed. Maybe there was more to that story than I knew also,,,,

If I remember right, trail permits were only 10$ less than 10 years ago. I believe they made the jump to 20$ and then to 25$ last winter. They rumored jumping to 50$ this year and with good trails, thats a 50$ most people would pay with no problem.[/b]


I like the sound of $50 also. I have a sled for each of my sons, so that means $150 to me. I remember the trails when there was no sticker, they sucked, bad. We have come a long ways! It takes money and manpower to groom every night. In our club it ends up being the retired guys that groom. But to get someone in that cab every night you are going to have to pay them.

Some of those areas that Idooski talked about do just that. The problem is other areas don&#39;t. So you can&#39;t take a long ride from area to area without having to suffer through a bunch of junk. Case in point. Seney and GM trails are great, get over to Munising and they suck. Go the other way toward Newberry, hit or miss there also.

We either need grooming every night or multiple trails to get from A to B to spread the traffic out. Either one costs money fellas.

I&#39;d pay $50 for a trail pass, no questions asked.

I&#39;d go for $50

$5.00 or $500.00 for a pass the trails will be no different than what they have been.
I&#39;ve said it 100 times, you cant have 4000 snowmobiles going down the same trail daily and ever expect it to be smooth. We need MORE trails to spread out the traffic, why do you think there is more than 1 e-way in Detroit?

I&#39;ve said it 100 times, you cant have 4000 snowmobiles going down the same trail daily and ever expect it to be smooth.[/b]


that isnt entirely a bad thing . I like riding the bumps

that isnt entirely a bad thing . I like riding the bumps[/b]
:crazy: This is what I look like after riding with Mark :crazy:

It&#39;s really a sad thing that you know more about our state than we do. When is the last time that you were in Michigan again?[/b]

So how much do you pay per mile????

$25 covers not much

I know our 8 clubs budget is somewhere near $300,000 to cover 800miles,this covers insurance,trail signage/groomer payments/groomer operations/trail maintenance cost etc

Now how many miles does Michigan have????

there is no way in hell $25 cover all that in Michigan without funding from the State

Why can&#39;t you guys get Government out and work the trail system ????

Yup you guys need the $$$$$

that isnt entirely a bad thing . I like riding the bumps[/b]
Me too! :rolleyes: That&#39;s how I get my exercise.

1- Our trails in the U.S. mainly Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota are by far as good or better
than what is found in Canada. (For a $25.00 two year pass)
2- The Amount of groomed trails in Wisconsin alone exceeds 20,000mi!
3- The mass amount of registered snowmobiles are what make $25.00 fees possible.
4- Why is it assumed we couldn’t maintain a highly involved trail system for $25.00.?

Every year I post infromation and or links to how the trail system works here and every year my northern brethren pooh-pooh it or refuse to accept that our system is different and really works.

I can guarantee with certainty that if our registration increased to $180.00 a year not only would the immediate effect be nil but the sport of snowmobiling in the Midwest would disappear within 2-3 years along with the associated economies it supports.

Take a look at the following information!


Association of Wisconsin Snowmobile Clubs

WHERE DO OUR DOLLARS GO?

Back

The majority of our money goes to our trail system. By Wisconsin State Law, we have a priority system outlining how money is spent on our trail program.

PRIORITY I – MAINTENANCE FOR EXISTING TRAILS

All trails that are accepted in the funded program can receive up to $250 per mile per year to be used to maintain them. Payments are only made on actual expenses, so on a "no snow year", the $250 of expenses may not be incurred. Expenses in this category include everything it takes to set up the trail, grooming, and taking out the trail in the spring. (Example: Labor, signs, brushing, marking, any soil preparation such as bulldozing, cultimulching, disking, etc., bridge repairs, and gates.) Also, other expenses include short-term (annual) acquisition ($.10 rod = $32 per mile), where paid. Groomers are paid by the hour according to the class (size) it fits into. Rates per hour on labor and equipment are published annually by the DNR.

To get a funded trail in our State Funded Program, you have to work with your County (coordinator) to establish this trail. Then the County has to apply for funding from the DNR. No snowmobile organization can receive a grant for funded trails – only the County.

PRIORITY II – CLUB SIGNS

The snowmobile program will give a club free signs for any snowmobile trail that is not in the funded program, as long as the trail is open to the public.
PRIORITY III – BRIDGE REHABILITATION

If you have to repair or rebuild any bridges on any funded trail, it is paid for out of this category. You can include minor bridge repair in Trail Maintenance.

PRIORITY IV – ROUTE SIGN REQUESTS

A village, city, or town may establish an ordinance that allows a snowmobile to be operated on a public road. This is called a snowmobile route. The city, village, or town can receive a one-time payment for the original snowmobile route (green) signs out of this category.

PRIORITY V – TRAIL REHABILITATION

All major enhancements to an existing trail to make it safer or better can be paid for out of this category.

PRIORITY VI – DEVELOPMENT

If there is money left over from the first five Priorities, it ends up here. Basically, there are four components to Development:

Mandatory Relocation
This is when a trail has to be moved or relocated because of loss of access. The funding to develop a replacement trail comes out of this category.

Discretionary Relocation
When a snowmobile club or county association chooses to change a trail route, usually to improve the quality of the trail, funding comes from here.

New Bridge Projects
When there is a need for a bridge in a new location, funding comes out of this category on a funded trail only.

New Trail Development
If there is funding left in the program, at this point the DNR would look to use it to add new miles of trail. This could also include acquisition of permanent corridors such as abandoned rail corridors.

SUPPLEMENTAL FUNDING

This is in a separate category from the rest of the trail program. When a County has exceeded the $250 per mile allowed in trail maintenance and spends a minimum of $130 per mile in grooming costs, it can apply for more funding under this program.

The funding for this program comes directly from our 40% tourism factor (50 gallons x Wisconsin State gas tax x 40% x number of registered snowmobiles in Wisconsin by the last day of February each year). In extremely good snow years in high-use areas, this usually ends up being pro-rated and the club will not be reimbursed for 100% of its expenses. In this case, the DNR may choose to transfer more funds into this program from other portions of our trail aids through a legislative process.

NOTE: The DNR regulates our trails program with assistance and advice form the Wisconsin Snowmobile Recreation Advisory Council.

Great info :thumbsup:


1- Our trails in the U.S. mainly Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota are by far as good or better
than what is found in Canada. (For a $25.00 two year pass)
2- The Amount of groomed trails in Wisconsin alone exceeds 20,000mi!
3- The mass amount of registered snowmobiles are what make $25.00 fees possible.
4- Why is it assumed we couldn’t maintain a highly involved trail system for $25.00.?

Every year I post infromation and or links to how the trail system works here and every year my northern brethren pooh-pooh it or refuse to accept that our system is different and really works.

I can guarantee with certainty that if our registration increased to $180.00 a year not only would the immediate effect be nil but the sport of snowmobiling in the Midwest would disappear within 2-3 years along with the associated economies it supports.

Take a look at the following information!
Association of Wisconsin Snowmobile Clubs

WHERE DO OUR DOLLARS GO?

Back

The majority of our money goes to our trail system. By Wisconsin State Law, we have a priority system outlining how money is spent on our trail program.

PRIORITY I – MAINTENANCE FOR EXISTING TRAILS

All trails that are accepted in the funded program can receive up to $250 per mile per year to be used to maintain them. Payments are only made on actual expenses, so on a "no snow year", the $250 of expenses may not be incurred. Expenses in this category include everything it takes to set up the trail, grooming, and taking out the trail in the spring. (Example: Labor, signs, brushing, marking, any soil preparation such as bulldozing, cultimulching, disking, etc., bridge repairs, and gates.) Also, other expenses include short-term (annual) acquisition ($.10 rod = $32 per mile), where paid. Groomers are paid by the hour according to the class (size) it fits into. Rates per hour on labor and equipment are published annually by the DNR.

To get a funded trail in our State Funded Program, you have to work with your County (coordinator) to establish this trail. Then the County has to apply for funding from the DNR. No snowmobile organization can receive a grant for funded trails – only the County.

PRIORITY II – CLUB SIGNS

The snowmobile program will give a club free signs for any snowmobile trail that is not in the funded program, as long as the trail is open to the public.
PRIORITY III – BRIDGE REHABILITATION

If you have to repair or rebuild any bridges on any funded trail, it is paid for out of this category. You can include minor bridge repair in Trail Maintenance.

PRIORITY IV – ROUTE SIGN REQUESTS

A village, city, or town may establish an ordinance that allows a snowmobile to be operated on a public road. This is called a snowmobile route. The city, village, or town can receive a one-time payment for the original snowmobile route (green) signs out of this category.

PRIORITY V – TRAIL REHABILITATION

All major enhancements to an existing trail to make it safer or better can be paid for out of this category.

PRIORITY VI – DEVELOPMENT

If there is money left over from the first five Priorities, it ends up here. Basically, there are four components to Development:

Mandatory Relocation
This is when a trail has to be moved or relocated because of loss of access. The funding to develop a replacement trail comes out of this category.

Discretionary Relocation
When a snowmobile club or county association chooses to change a trail route, usually to improve the quality of the trail, funding comes from here.

New Bridge Projects
When there is a need for a bridge in a new location, funding comes out of this category on a funded trail only.

New Trail Development
If there is funding left in the program, at this point the DNR would look to use it to add new miles of trail. This could also include acquisition of permanent corridors such as abandoned rail corridors.

SUPPLEMENTAL FUNDING

This is in a separate category from the rest of the trail program. When a County has exceeded the $250 per mile allowed in trail maintenance and spends a minimum of $130 per mile in grooming costs, it can apply for more funding under this program.

The funding for this program comes directly from our 40% tourism factor (50 gallons x Wisconsin State gas tax x 40% x number of registered snowmobiles in Wisconsin by the last day of February each year). In extremely good snow years in high-use areas, this usually ends up being pro-rated and the club will not be reimbursed for 100% of its expenses. In this case, the DNR may choose to transfer more funds into this program from other portions of our trail aids through a legislative process.

NOTE: The DNR regulates our trails program with assistance and advice form the Wisconsin Snowmobile Recreation Advisory Council.[/b]

Ah I see more governement $$$$ aka gas tax

acquisitions of rail beds all State $$$$

County controls some of the $$$$

not just the $25 at work here

Honestly why can&#39;t you guys get out of bed from the State

It is because you can&#39;t with a $25 registration and would need massive amounts of $$$$ to cover the cost that would not be covered by the State

Honestly why can&#39;t you guys get out of bed from the State

It is because you can&#39;t with a $25 registration and would need massive amounts of $$$$ to cover the cost that would not be covered by the State[/b]

I agreed with you earlier that your trails where not totally funded by our permits but I disagree on this point. :whatever: In our case I&#39;ll bet the State gets a huge return on its investment into snowmobiling. Would it be right for sleddars to totally fund themselves only to have the state gain on all the taxes generated?

$5.00 or $500.00 for a pass the trails will be no different than what they have been.
I&#39;ve said it 100 times, you cant have 4000 snowmobiles going down the same trail daily and ever expect it to be smooth. We need MORE trails to spread out the traffic, why do you think there is more than 1 e-way in Detroit?[/b]


Right on Mikadoo!!!

I have to agree with Mikadoo also. As proof, often there is just a narrow band of good riding available in the Gaylord area early and late in the season. The trails are jammed and trashed by noon. Not that I&#39;m complaining, I actually kind of enjoy the heads up riding style required when it gets like that. But back to the point, when conditions are great from Bay City all the way up to Lake Superior, the sleds are all spread out over a much larger area - with noticably lower trafic everywhere. My observation, FWIW.

that isnt entirely a bad thing . I like riding the bumps[/b]
On a 96 ZRT? You are a glutton for punishment!

On a 96 ZRT? You are a glutton for punishment![/b]

You have got to be kidding me Mike! Until you Ride Snofrogs ZRT
Nothing will even compare to the Utlimate smooth ride of his BMT10.
Trust me.... rode it threw A mine field I was totally impressed! NO
one that day came even close on catching me! :thumbsup: And it even
wasn&#39;t MY sled! When I looked at the speedo I couldn&#39;t believe my eyes! w00t

Later Dave