Ok, look at my sug for my sled. A couple of week's ago I posted about my sled fouling plug's last year. I was going to make some big changes but didn't. The only thing I have done is install Boysen 2 stage reed's, listed to be for EFI. I talked to some one on here that said they used them in same type of sled(EFI) with no issue's.

During the installing I found that the air box had been blocking part of BOTH t-body's. Now of course that's now fixed and on all the way. I took the sled out and babyed around the year on last years plugs(VERY BLACK and WET) after a few lap's in the yard I pulled the plug's.....there getting REALY clean. So I decided to take it out on the road. Ran a good way's then shut it down while still at speed. Pulled the plugs and I'd say there borter line to lean, VERY light gray. Now the instructions say they run rich at WOT.....I'm worried. So I come back being nice.....shut it down and rechecked......they are still just as light colored.

Yes..the oil pump rod is on and the marks are lined up.

Now these plugs DON'T look like coffe w/cream. These look more like the gray soot after you burn paper. How should I proceed, I'm goingto put some new plugs in and check again, but I'm sure that they will still be a little lean. WHAT CAN I DO.....I thought about putting old reeds back in but wife seem's to have misplaced.

PLEASE HELP......

During the installing I found that the air box had been blocking part of BOTH t-body's. Now of course that's now fixed and on all the way.[/b]

What do you mean by this? I don't understand how the airbox can block the throttle bodies. They should be connected. If you modified the inside of your airbox, that's why you are lean. You are right to be concerned, this does not sound good.

I have a hard time believing it's the reeds, sounds more like an intake leak.

The lower part of the air box boot's were blocking like a 1/4 of the t-body mouth. I hAD NEVER had the air box off and you cant hardly see the botom of the t-body where they connect to the air box. I could tell they had been blocking part of it......could see the ruber transfer and the lower part of the air box was folded up.

After haveing reinstalled I can see why they could fold and block the t-body's...its a royle pain.

I have checked for air leak's around reed area, with brake clean and propane. NO change in the way it ran.

I have also pulled and cleaned the fuel pick up's....just some sort of realy fine mesh.....clean as can be.

I was able to get a buddy's New plug's. Ran around the yard,started thought they were starting to darken up....jumped on a small trail and opened it up. Rode like I normaily would for about 2 miles....shut it off and fliped open the hood............NOT GOOD......the exhaust manifold by the heads was just barly glowing. Pulled the plugs they were WHITE in the electrode was white....like frosty white.

So I'm back home beating my head against the wall......start the sled and let it run for a while......notice NO smoke. Thinking the oil pump isn't working(never had the lines off though) I unhook the link and set it wide open. Seem's like it started smokeing prety good, made a couple of slow lap's and fogged my self out....so I'm guessing it works.

I pulled the plugs again hopeing to see something black....very little change in color, and no signs of excive oil . At this point I'm lost....top's of the pistons are still looking fine, HOWEVER they are DRY, and I mean like havent been run dry. There is some light color soot on top, but I can tell they are getting TO clean.

I'm still trying to figure this out.....I have now dumped some oil in the cyclinder's just to add some extra time.

I'm at the point I can't tell if I'm lacking GAS or running realy short on OIL.......will a EFI injector work with premix gas, I might add some oil just to make sure I don't tost anything while trying to fix this.

I have also checked and have NO c/k engine light, or blinking led on the ECU.

The lower part of the air box boot's were blocking like a 1/4 of the t-body mouth. I hAD NEVER had the air box off and you cant hardly see the botom of the t-body where they connect to the air box. I could tell they had been blocking part of it......could see the ruber transfer and the lower part of the air box was folded up.[/b]

Ah yes now I get it. I did this several times on one of my sleds before I figured it out, luckily never ran it that way but yeah it's easy to do. You might want to make sure the airbox has not been gutted. It needs to be 100% stock. Check it against your parts diagram at http://www.alpha-sports.com

I would say if you're not sure you're getting oil, yes by all means run premix along with your full oil tank and measure how much oil is consumed vs gas and calculate your ratio.

However, it sounds more like you said, it's running lean. It sounds like both sides are equally lean. I'm concerned. I would try calling the Boysen tech line http://www.boyesen.com/cwo/Contact_Us and see if they have anything to say about this.

The throttle bodies being partially blocked would easily explain why it was running so rich before. It could be that the EFI computer tried to recalibrate for less air, and now that there's so much airflow it hasn't adapted yet. Personally I think that's a reach but I don't know what else to say. I don't know about your EFI system but there may be stored trouble codes in the computer, just because the indicator is not flashing doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't detected a problem.

You're sure you have good gas in there, right?

YUP, drained and refuled with fresh gas toinght. I will be calling Boysen and see what they have to say, even the shop I bought them from said they work in EFI, and asked if I wanted them installed.

The air box is intact, as far as a relearn my AC service cd say's it is with in last 5 start's. I ran over the test them can be done with out the factory scan tool, and came up with nothing.

Now I did clean a few dirty conector's and and let it cool off. On restart I noticed it was smokeing at idle.....let it run and recheck, plugs were a little wet. I'm not sure if it was due to a cold engine of the cleaning. I test tfor mixture again, still lean at low speed and very lean on WOT.

I decided to try a last resort....my sled is By-Fuel. I now have it set(by factery jumper wire's) to run on O2 fuel or E-85(enothal). The sled AND service manule say's all this does is richen the mixture across the rpm range, is not suggusted of "pump gas" due to the richer mixture fouling plugs.................WELL the plugs are starting to get a color to them now. I was only able to "Plug it" once(due to naging wife) and the plugs look like it might be ok here. I just can't figure out WHERE all the extra air is comeing from and WHY I need more fuel. Both cyclinder's have the SAME plug color, so what ever is affecting this is happing on both cyclinder's, so I'm ruleing out a air leak....what are the odds of BOTH crank seal's or even reed cages leaking the same.

I'm lost and wishing I would have never taken the air box off..............

Sounds like you are more on top of this than I am. I still doubt it's the engine itself and most likely something crazy in the intake/efi, but I'm out of suggestions, sorry :(

I guess if you have a sensor that is malfunctioning but is the efi computer can't tell (because the signal coming from the sensor is still within normal range but incorrect) that could be it. Maybe your sled thinks it's 100 degrees outside or you're at 10000 feet? I know...the possibilities just get more remote...

I believe I am the one who told you they run boysen in an efi sled. I do and I have no problems with them at all. Have ran a little over 100 mile the last few days with no problems at all. I did turn my oil pump up this summer, but it wasnt burning much oil at all and I didnt like that,,,,

any chance your problem is more electical based?? what about getting a 30$ fuel reducer on ebay (not to reduce your fuel flow) but to check the pressure?? Is there something going on with your fuel return or simply not getting enough fuel to the rail and your putting lots of air in there compared to fuel??

if fuel is your problem and not the oil pump, adding oil to your fuel shouldnt help,,, it may be wise to play very gentle with it right now so your not putting new pistons in soon.

just a thought,,, any cracks in the seams of your y pipe or your pipe?? check the backside of your ypipe (part facing the motor),,, mine split there last winter and I rebuilt a motor because of it.

I haven't seen any crack's, and I don't hear any leak's under hood. I may pull it and check thought.....could that realy cause it to run lean ????

I have a fuel pressure tester at work, lot of good that's doing right now. Any idea what fuel preuuse should be ? My service cd dosn't say....or I haven't found it yet. I did check and the lines arn't pinched or block.

Now something I forgot to metichon.....From the firt time I took it out yester day it seemd REALY diffrent than last year.....or even when I pull it to my house to work on it. It acted like ZIPPY, like it's had a clutch kit or a pipe on it.....but it dosn't have eather. I have heard "Lean is Mean" but that was just crazy pep....from take off to WOT is was a lot diffrent, under hard throtle it ran like a "raped ape", but as soon as you would try and cruse 1 speed it would start blubering and sounding funny, it did that a little last year but not like this.......

After reading my service cd there are ONLY a few thing's that control air/fuel. The Tps, the Coolant senor, and the Air temp sensor. I was able to get my ocoloscope to day and I'm going to check the Freq range on the Air and Coolant sensor.....take's a Arctic Cat test to c/k the Tps.

So any more idea's.......

Ok, made some progress. I had set my sled to multy fuel to try and richen the mixture. Well it seemed to make a HUGE diffrence, they didn't look to bad. The plugs still looked a little shy on iol so I am now running some light premix...like 80 to 1. I made a couple of long hard run's down the road...about 2 miles one way.....plugs look good, I like to see a little more oil on the plug but that is easy enought to fix with adj of the oil pump.


So any one think it will be "SAFE" to ride this way, once I get the oil pump turned up to match. I'm just a little scared that noe my sled is as rich as it can be made(with out moddifying temp sensor readings).

The only thing I can figure is that my sled must have had a REALY poor air flow design from ther factory. My sled also seem's faster than last year in the trail's, it's snappy at 55 now, has NO issue carrying the ski's over hill's.....I hope I'm safe cause I like this.

Now I have more part''s that I have yet to install, a change in gearing and a clutch kit. Will eather one of these affect the Air Fuel mixture. I don't have any way to make it richer if it changes again. Should I be safe, has any one had to rejet after one of those changes ????

I have always been told that a sled will run its best right before it dies,,, so I would still say be darned careful.
A clutch kit or gearing change will not make a difference as far as your air/fuel ratio,,,

I honestly do not remember where I am running as far as pressure in the fuel line. I know I am running it wide open (no reduction at all) for a while. I have a new motor and want to break it in before reducing the fuel on it.

So what you have the regulator by-passed ???

As far a best before it dye's......you mean leaning out to the point of burn down, or the motor has a migic power boost right before it die.


Any thought's as to the fuel setting makeing it richer.....good idea to ride like that.

I have heard people say the the Amsoil Domatior oil is for border line to lean, would this oil be a good idea ? Is the oil usable in the oilinjection system ? I'm wondering because our shop just got 2 case's by mistake, and I can get it for less than Interseptor oil. I don't know any thing more than that I have heard people say its for leaned out motor's...but am unsure of the context they ment it in.

Dominator is not really meant to be injected. Its better to pre-mix it. You could try it, but I certainly would not change anything else, until you figure out your lean condition. Less variables make it easier to troubleshoot.

my regulator is inline, but it is adjustable from no fuel at all to full fuel. Right now I am running it full fuel, no regulation going on,,, I do have a gauge with it to tell me what the pressure is though.
As for the runs best before it dies,,, its because of the lean condition.

Dominator is not really meant to be injected. Its better to pre-mix it. You could try it, but I certainly would not change anything else, until you figure out your lean condition. Less variables make it easier to troubleshoot.[/b]

Pre-mix or injection. It says so right on the bottle.

Cheers

Cam

It takes a few to get good plug color. More important, what do the tps of the piston look like. The wash will tell a better story.

Not sure how to read your pic ????

Is the dark area carbon ?? If so why does it show rich as centered ?

From what I could tell the whole piston looks realy dry, the color seemed to look like a ring....but realy hard to tell, the pistons had a ton of oily black crud on top from last year, but that's all just about gone.....starting to look like they have been cleaned on a wire wheel.

I'm going to pull my APV's and get a better look at the pistons, hope I haven't melted the exh side of the piston's.

Slush, LOL, Take er easy, I think your just over thinking things a little. With the oil pump thing, finding out the throttle boddies were blocked and now the reeds. My Bro likes to worry too. It takes a few miles to get a good read on the plugs unless you know where to look. Ill dig up some info for you. Now, If your pistons are getting cleaner(not sand blasted,but shiney clean) around the edges, Its rich. Exess fuel is washing the carbon from the top of the piston. Total carbon with no wash is lean. Your looking for thumbnail size wash at the transfer ports to be on the safe side. Let us know how they look.

I'll check the wash tomorrow. The part I'm worried about is with out the EFI fuel set to other the plug's turn frosted white. If that isn't bad enough, I thought I had metichned but guess not...After a short hard ride on a trail the EXH manifold was glowing....just like you were heating with a torch. I know that's WAY to lean, and that's why I'm worried about the pistons been hurt.

Here is a good article to read. I know weve all learned to think the whole plug needs to be cardboard brown. The tip can be white a thrid of the way down and be safe, and the insulator white half way down, but hard to see without a light and magnifier. Hard to get a read on new plugs. The piston wash will also help let you know if your rich or lean. Just didnt want you to worry just yet. Not saying they couldnt, but Ive never seen a set of reeds burn down a sled. Your glowing y-pipe could be due to carbon build up burning from your rich condition before you found the thottle boddies pinched off, extra oil burning off from the added fuel, hard to tell at this point. Hope you get it figured out.link (http://www.snowtechmagazine.com/articles/2001/baseline/baseline.php)

Good link....I'll use it when I check tomorow.

I hadn't thought about the extra oil burning off......does this happen or is that jsut reaching ....it has me thinking now. If YOU were jetting you sled, would you be afarid to run the sled HARD to see if the manifold started to glow again, I;m scared it will burn down.

The one main factor I was worried about is on the plug's that the eleticrode tip was white, NOT the porclen but the metal eletrode(the part sticking out of the cermic) was white, also the top eletrode(what is it called) was gray.

Here are a couple cutaways of newer plugs. Notice the carbon rings on the insulators.

Can you upload bigger pic's ?

Sorry no bigger pics of those but heres another with aprox. 50-70 miles on it. Just wanted you to be aware it takes time to get plug color, and piston wash would be another aid in figuring out if you were rich or lean.

WOW that's a "SAFE" burning plug. I have NEVER see a plug that clean with out a hole in a piston.....unless it came out of a car.

SR, any of my EFI sleds have ran a bit spooky lean. My old ZR6 ran a perfect light tan, but it was always a bit white for my tastes. However, if your sled was rich before, adding reeds and cages will not lean it out much if at all.
If you notice a big difference in the way it responds in pre and post reed power, there is probably something wrong. They really just don't make a super noticable increase in power or response on the 600's.
Here are a few things to be aware of / info and such.
-The e85 switch or connection increases the fuel delivery to a ratio of 1.4 - 1.5 ish over gasoline setting. This should make the sled doggy and noticably rich if running on gasoline.
-Since you had the air box out you may want to make sure the IAT sensor did not get damaged. It does not have alot of authority over A?F ratio, but because of its design if it was shorted it would reduce fuel.
-Make sure the oil injection lines did not get kinked or split when putting the boots back on. I know you probably already checked them, but thought it was worth mentioning.

Usually if you make a change and it makes a measurable change, then it is the change that caused the change. :confused:

EDIT: sorry, I just noticed that you tride carb cleaner / propane. That should have detected any vacuum leaks.

SR, any of my EFI sleds have ran a bit spooky lean. My old ZR6 ran a perfect light tan, but it was always a bit white for my tastes. However, if your sled was rich before, adding reeds and cages will not lean it out much if at all.
If you notice a big difference in the way it responds in pre and post reed power, there is probably something wrong. They really just don't make a super noticable increase in power or response on the 600's.
Here are a few things to be aware of / info and such.
-The e85 switch or connection increases the fuel delivery to a ratio of 1.4 - 1.5 ish over gasoline setting. This should make the sled doggy and noticably rich if running on gasoline.
-Since you had the air box out you may want to make sure the IAT sensor did not get damaged. It does not have alot of authority over A?F ratio, but because of its design if it was shorted it would reduce fuel.
-Make sure the oil injection lines did not get kinked or split when putting the boots back on. I know you probably already checked them, but thought it was worth mentioning.

Usually if you make a change and it makes a measurable change, then it is the change that caused the change. :confused:

EDIT: sorry, I just noticed that you tride carb cleaner / propane. That should have detected any vacuum leaks.[/b]

Well, when I use the "e-85" setting the sled run's GREAT.....seem's strange dosn't it.

I have tested the Air, Colant and Fuel pressure, all right where they should be.

I talked Boysen TECH suport to day and of course they want me to pull the reeds back out :cussing:. The person I talked to DID say that it seemed strange that my sled was listed to use CARB reed's. He said most of the time the EFI needs heavery reed petals(as opsed to carb) or they lean out. So I need to "Mic" the thicknes of the reeds and call them back. He also want's me check the ECU (marking)to make sure that the Zl's they tested on used the same setup......turns out there are 3 diffent EFI designs used on my sled(diffent simbels) and each is a diffent setup.

I will probley just end up putting the stock reeds back in if the tech suport can't figure it out, even thought Boysen TECH is wanting me to be able to use there reed's I'm not sure they were ever worth the hassel.