Here is what skidoo e-mailed me back on the lean mid-range problem in our sleds let em know what you think of this

Mr. Jaillet,

Thank you for contacting Bombardier Recreational Products.

Our technical advisor has offered this advice about your 2002 MXZ 800:

- run with factory jettings and timing; use premium octane fuel
- use 50% - 50% water to antifreeze liquid
- make sure the antifreeze is over the full line on the bottle
- make sure to use BR9ECS spark plugs
- if you choose to go with the new needle and the new spring the temp should go lower since the motor will rev lower.
- It could be good idea to put the new optional grill in the front to lower the inside hood temp.

Trusting that this information will respond adequately to your concerns,

Sincerely,

not a very good response. They think the temp SHOULD go down, sounds like a guess to me. And trust me the vents they hacked into my 03 800 gade were NOT optional. I have since closed them off.

EVERY e-mail I send bombardier comes back JUST LIKE THIS EVERYTIME. here is one. They never give me any actual help.

Mr. Norris,

Thank you for contacting Bombardier Recreational Products.

You may ask your dealer to call Bombardier's after-sales technical staff to get assistance in repairing your snowmobile. Our technical team has the expertise that your dealer may need.

Here is the list of 3 Ski-Doo Snowmobiles Dealerships
closest to your location:
Dealer #1 is 3.3 miles from YourLocation
Map | Directions
WEST-PORT MARINE
135 MAIN ST.
WESTBROOK ME, 04092 US
Tel: 207-854-9925
Fax: 207-854-9928
E-Mail: info@westportmarine.com
Web Site

Dealer #2 is 15.2 miles from YourLocation
Map | Directions
RICHARDSON'S BOAT YARD
850 ROOSEVELT TRAIL
WINDHAM ME, 04062 US
Tel: 207-892-9664
Fax: 207-892-9365
E-Mail: sales@richardsonsby.com
Web Site

Dealer #3 is 16.7 miles from YourLocation
Approximate Map | Directions
WILLS & SONS SPORT CENTER, INC
172 PARKER FARM RD
BUXTON ME, 04093 US
Tel: 207-727-3503
Fax: 207-727-4843
E-Mail: wills@sacoriver.net
Web Site

If they think it is a heat problem then why are they not sending a notice to all sled owners about this , can you say recall and fix it :angry:

hey permafrost, why did you close the vent off? I ask because I see you have ridden this year. I had the same vent put on my 02.

You let them doo that to your 02. When did they doo it this season or last? The reason I closed it off is that my engine compartment will fill with powder, and also let water in. I doo alot of water running so this is very detrimental for me. If the 03 800 HO summits dont need them then why does my gade.
here is a pic. I think i am gonna make a new left cover that is tighter.

I just had it done a week ago. I decided I would try it because I have a lot of problems with my pipe heat shields busting a part. I don't know if it is from a lot of excess heat or what so I had them do it. It does look like snow would come in. I thought they would have closable vents for it. If anything I think it looks kind of neat.

I never heard anything about this. Does anyone have any pictures of theirs done without being covered up? Id like to check this out.

Thanks

Steve

permafrost, where is the grille? i cant see it in the pic.....is it a update, does this grill have a pn?
the spring and needle update should make this machine slower???i hope not!!!
i thought they are leaning it out a bit for better gas mileage, whats peoples opinions on this/??

I have been hearing about this midrange problem for a year, has anyone ever melted down or is this just a freek problem in peoples minds, I changed my needle to the 942 in my 02 800 HMX RER but I have a RKTech head so it might have solved the problem, by the way I'm using 450 mains with no problem. I beat big bore 740 99 Summit with a 136" track, dunoed 150 HP 101 ft. lbs torque, tuned by a pro, so I know this machine rocks. It is F/S.

http://www.offroadz.com/bonzi/02forsale/P4120002.JPG

The mid range lean condition is real. The flaking moly ring problem is reel. And the shrinking piston problem is real.

Sounds lke the way to fix it is to fix it yourselfs.

I have sent SKI-DOO another e-mail regarding the answers they gave me ,will post it when i get a response from them (skidoo) :angry:

Here is the pic withnoclose offs.

thanks permafrost!!!. is that a ski doo part number or did you fab that up yourself???

I noticed that same grill on the 03 gades. Personaly, I think it looks stupid. Talk about ingesting snow! I bet after a few powder rides and you will need to shovel out the front of your bellypan! :angry:

The 03 mx i looked at today also had some shielding removed from the pipe and a donut gasket from the pipe to the y-pipe.Something about the pipe running to hot is why they put the vents in.Also no boost bottle to maintain better carb calibration?

I am currently talking with bombi on this issue. My dealer calls up the tech department and the say put the skid plate on just move the rivits location.....I don`t like it.... so I call Bombi and they say do not cover it up, cut the lip of your skidplate, they say the vent is designed so that the snow will stay out.....Right :angry:
I told them I was not qualified to do this and the dealer should do this...hehehe :p Then I asked why the other machines don`t have this and also what happens if I cover it up....still waiting for a answer...hmmmm :cussing:

Did this grill come on anything other than the 600ho in zx chassis for 03? Having it put on my sled I figured it would not hurt anything. I always carry a roll of duck tape with me so if I need to close the grill off I can just tape it shut. I had to cut the lip off my x-team skid plate too.

Im sorry guys. This is exactly the reason I got the 600Ho instead of the 800. Rotax makes good motors, probably the best 2 stroke 4 strokes in the industry. But this 800 twin is not part of that family. I have seen first hand the problems with this motor, and now I am hearing problems with the 03 that havent even been ridden yet. You can never get a clear answer from skidoo about this motor (probably because they dont have any yet).

If I had to bet money i would say that the same people that designed this motor designed the 951cc time bomb bombardier uses in there Seadoos.

How can Bombardier put a vent on the front of a machine that is designed to run in powder, and marketed to run in powder. And there is no way to design a vent so snow doesnt go in, it always finds a way in.

I suggest that we once again hammer bombardier with more letters demanding a fix or solution to this problem or this 800 saga will continue for ever. All we need to do is figure out what we want them to do.

They should have gotten rid of the 800 in 2001 and replaced it with a single pipe 809 triple zx renegade or MXZ. But becasue the 809 weights 10lb or somthing more its old. You would not have the fuel consumption problems, the moly ring problems, the heat problems, the rough idle problems and the list goes on.

IMO Skidoo should handle this like Ford did with Firestone tires. They should replace the engine with a brand new updated model.

I bet the only reason skidoo didnt just go and redesign the 800 engine is to avoid angering the 2001 customers becasue there is no reason this engine should have made a comeback in 02.

I know some of you are having luck with your 800, and you are just that, Lucky. But do you really think you will get the kind of milage from that engine like you would a 500 twin or 600twin. I dont.

Well i hope your unproven 600 HO is good for you marty. I myself steer away from first year releases as I dont want to be the guinea pig. I owned a 01 and a 02 800 and there was a bunch of other 800's in our group. No one broke down or never failed to get to their next destination in two years. What did blow up on us was a couple of mach z's. The 800's you are hearing about are the unlucky ones as with all brands. These people are vocal because they are having problems. I dont blame them if i had problems i would speak out too. The only problems we had was pin holes in the tuned pipe a melted vent and some blue flames, cool.


The new vents only come stock on 03 renegades 600HO and 800. I guess bombi feels that we are the craziest riders of all and need them as they dont come on 03 summit 800 HO's.


Mxzx1 what colour is your belly pan ? Doo you wanna trade?

here is another e-amil I got back from skidoo this is becomming as joke


De : Bob Jaillet[SMTP:k9szam@hotmail.com]
Date : Monday, November 18, 2002 10:29 PM
A : bombardier.service@recreation.bombardier.com
Objet : Re: Your e-mail to Bombardier

I know nothing about a needle and spring update for my sled is this a warranty issue ? As far as heat under the hood if you feel that the heat is excessive then why is this not a warranty ? why should I have to pay for this ? I do not mean to be pushy but when I spend 16,000 dollars on machines and they are not performing like they should or they have issues I feel that this is just bad R&D on SKI-DOO's part and as a reputable company they should stand by there products and fix the problem at hand .



Thanks for the quick reply Bob Jaillet

Mr. Jaillet,



Thank you for writing back.

Please see your authorized Bombardier dealer about the new needle and spring as well as the the hood grille. If you still have any questions or issues after contacting your dealer, please do not hesitate to write to or call us once again.

Sincerely,





Claire

Representative / Représentante
Customer Assistance Center / Centre d'assistance à la clientèle
E-mail / Courriel: info@ski-doo.com; info @sea-doo.com
Tel: U.S.: (715) 848-4957; Can: (819) 566-3366

Permafrost, I dont mind being the geunie pig to a point. If the 600HO has problems I trust skidoo will fix it and so far skidoo has been good to me like that and from what you tell me to you as well.

However lets say that the 600HO is a timebomb, It has piston problems, Lean mid range problems, Ring coating problems, and heat problems. IMO to put that same engine unchanged in the 2004 models would be an insult to every skidoo rider. And to do it for a 3rd year with pathetic fixes and excuses should qualify people to get fired at bombardier.

Now I know that there are reliable 800 twins out there. Dont get me wrong. But it just seems like this 800 engine is having problem after problem and there is no serious fix or recal to deal with them.

Ive ridden with a few 800 twins and I have never seen a problem first hand. But they tell me about problems that there having and its the same problems that constantly come up on this site.

I just wish that they would fix this 800 engine once and for all becasue it is really hurting bombardier image. This I know first hand. Just the same as the 951 has pretyy much ruined seadoos image yet the 951 keeps returning with the same problems year after year.


Oh and permafrost, I saw the Renegade today at the dealer. It was like the first one they ever had in there that I saw. I understand why you like them so much, there pretty sweet. I also saw the vents. Is it just me or did skidoo when the zx first came out say that the bumber worked just like a nose cone over that area. To me it just looks like a useless vent and i dought it would offer any cooling benifits.

The 800 has problems. It's not a great motor. Never has been. It's an ok motor. I have an '01. Engine went out around 1200 miles. The pistons knocked from day one. I got a new engine, and that was great. I haven't torn the top end off yet, but do suspect that I'll find the same sorts of issues that have been talked about regarding the pistons/rings. I ride it hard, so it's a foregone conclusion, IMO.

800 clutching was also really bad out of the box.

And everyone knows about the lean midrange. The flat slides should have been an improvement, but as it turns out, they really haven't been. Debatable, I know- some seem to have gotten good performance/mileage with them.

Seems to me that they didn't do enough R&D before releasing this engine.

But then again, I had a '99 600, too, and I had a wrist pin clip come out- that munched the motor, as well. And I thought the same thing, then, too.

Surprisingly, the 700 twin seems to be their best engine. I really like that one. Wished I had bought one, after owning the 800. So much smoother.

I don't think it's a few unlucky ones with the 800's. I think ski-doo might be dealing with more customers this year, about pistons, than last year. They just aren't lasting like they ought to, it seems to me. But I doubt there will be a recall. They'll just make another change in the following model year, like always.

And don't forget why they cam out with the ECS plugs.

Supposedly, they changed the piston for '03?

I'll have to take some pics, if it turns out my pistons/rings are following suit with others. They only have about 600 miles on them.

Bombi should bring back the 583 and 670, I'm sure that they could meet today's hp with a bit of tweeking and still be bulletproof ???

Yeah I wish they would have designed the zx chassis and rev around the 670 h.o.

I also wish that I would have never read or heard about this problem. That way I would not have any concerns until it blew up. I can only assume I have the same problem because I am not going to tear my motor apart to find out.

Man all this wishing going on I just remember what I read in a post the other day. "You can wish in one hand and crap in the other, guess which hand will fill first." Funny.

Originally posted by 2tone800X@Nov 20 2002, 10:59 PM
I also wish that I would have never read or heard about this problem. That way I would not have any concerns until it blew up.
:( you can say that again

I wonder how the 800SDI motor will hold up. THats probably whats going to be in most sleds next year or shortly after anyways.

And dont worry about what hasnt happend yet. Yes there is problems with this motor, but like Permafrost said not all of them. I also know a few guys that have had no problems to there 800twins. Just take care of it and use good oil like amsoil aio.

go4it has 4500 miles and no motor probs on his 800

i have 8000 miles,blew a piston from a frozen carb....my only major complaints are the recoil(solved i bought a 2003 recoil...same with go4it)and the y pipe and pipe erosion

Hi Guys,
I have been following this same subject pretty seriously on the Snowest forum and thought I'd share some stuff. Doo knows about the lean mid-range. It's got to do with the removal of the pilot jet shrouds
on the 01 &02 Tm 40s. They were there in 00 1/2 models then removed in 01 and back on in 03. This leans the motor at the 6500 to 7000 rpm range. Cyberdyne, a company in N.Y. is modifying the carbs with good results. They are just swamped right now with some other commitments. You'll be hearing a lot about this mod sometime in Dec. I'll post more about them when I get info from a friend that has already had some done.He sent them to Al the head wrench at the Sled Shed in Revelstoke B.C. for some tests. I have also talked to Al at length about this same topic. He says he has some shrouds on order and is going to start doing carbs himself.
He is an incredible Tech who has started building an aftercan that gives huge gains
on stock sleds. To read more about his exhaust can go to the snowest.com forum and check in the racing section for new exhaust "Thing". Claims around 10 track HP on the dyno just by bolting it on.
Anyway Al also said they have had few 800 failures by using synthetic oil and keeping the under hood temps down.
I am putting on a RK TEK head some boyesen reeds and light weight can of some sort.
If you use a regular after can (not a "Thing" or an HPS ) then use a RLE restrictor. This combo is proven
by lots of guys running the 800s with great results. Just keep an EYE on EGTs and Piston Wash and they should last quite a while.
I know I've written too much at once but I'm not able to get on the computer much and wanted to get some info out that you might not know. For a ton more info try searching the snowest forum for "summit 800" in the performance/modified section and you can read for hours about the stuff I've mentioned. We need to get these Doo's running like they should be......I don't like playing second fiddle to anyone. LOL :D

Dood,

I think you meant to say the needle jet, not pilot jet. This is the main tube in the bore that doesn't have the "hood", on the '01-02's.

You are correct. Sorry......I need sleep.
Thanks. Dood :doh:

Can we take are carbs on the 01 and 02 and just add a shroud to them to correct the problems we are having ?

I hope so. The places I talked about are just starting to test this deal so it should'nt be long. I think if it helps we should demand
Ski Doo fix these carbs for us. We will know more in a few weeks I think. I'll post the minute I hear anything.
Dood

Originally posted by Machzzzz1@Nov 20 2002, 02:56 PM

I just wish that they would fix this 800 engine once and for all becasue it is really hurting bombardier image. This I know first hand.
The crank eating triples have hurt the image more than any twin has. I LIKE the triples, and i will admit that.

ski Dood keep me informed and maybe we can get skidoo like you said to do something for us (fix these carbs ) I will bug them till they do :cussing:

Great info Ski Dood! I have noticed one thing about Doo owners...They all help out with insight and info when a problem arrises and a fix is being tested. Its an attaboy to all of us. :D :thumbsup:

Anybody heard if SKI DOO is looking into this problem yet? I am sure that SKIDOO is watching these threads or someone involved with SKIDOO is here reading this , are they going to fix this or are we going to eat it ?