Sorry guys ;) but this has been bugging me for a while

1-Let say you have a 600cc sled and find a 700 and install it as it is a bolt in and don't report it to the insurance company.

Is that insurance fraud ???

You have just increase your hp by 10-15hp :sly:

2-Let say you have a 600cc sled and you install pipes and reeds

You have just increased your hp by 10-15hp :sly:

Which one would get screued by their insurance company if they found out???

Lot's of people say that installing a bigger engine is insurance fraud

Yet if you install a set of pipes and reeds you just increased the hp by the same margin and this is not considered fraud

What is your take???


BTW I read on another site that in Quebec you cannot modify your accelration to your sled as that is illegal,( President of the FMDQ)does not make sense to me btw :doh:

I think the real fraud is the amount of money the insurance companies continually collect from us, in which our states and provinces mandate that we have coverage. There needs to be some intervention and regulation on their price gouging :angry: Anyway, back to your question, and this would be more of a non-answer, I don't think sleds should be insured based on cc's ..but just a flat rate...equal across the board. My ZR500 can go just as fast on a trail as my buddies Mach and hit a tree at the same speed, causing the same damage..50 mph is 50 mph whether its a 370 fan or a 1000 cc T-cat (I know..they insure based on potential and likelihood ..read as discrimination)...okay off my soapbox now...the moral side of me says it would be fraud, the practical side says I take my chances. ;)

I think increasing the cc's would constitute insurance fraud because 700cc's is a bigger class.

Sure increasing the motor size without telling the insurance is fraud, but in Ontario,if you own anything bigger than 600cc you will not find insurance easy.You will be forced to go where high risk people go to get insurance,and pay very high risk preminems. Beleive me I look into it and phone every where and I was getting prices like $1000-1500 for 8-12 weeks of snow?So you guys that don't have this done to you yet, tell me you would not think of puting a bigger motor in your sled.It is true that the 500cc-600cc motors in todays snowmobiles are fast enough , but the insurance here has made people stick to these sizes with no choise. :cussing: Like I'm starting to think we do not live in a free country when this happens :angry:

Freezerburnt< you got me thinking. :nervous: A 500 fan cooled sled could actually be driven quicker down a tight trail than a bigger heavier sled. I thought that exhaust modification of any type was illegal in ontario? I also phoned dozens of companies and most would not even return my call once I mentioned the word snowmobile.

If anyone is stilll having problems finding reasonable Insurance. Please Email or contact me as I think I may be able to help./ :D permafrost

Yet another reason I ride a 97 ZR 580! lol

I don&#39;t understand it either Freezer, I am reminded of that Joe guy from Lethal Weapon.... they F***y in the drive thur... they f***y with cell phones!! lol Now us sledders pay big for the sport we love!

FYI, I&#39;m with state farm... 350.00 for the year on my 97 with complete coverage. But on the downside... they have all my business and can&#39;t do any better. (State farm only offers complete coverage)

:thumbsup:

I have Country Companies and pay $325/ year for each of my 2002 Viper ERs. I have full replacement coverage value and a pretty high limit per occurance too.

Very easy to understand why insurance companies rate by cc. You crash a T-cat into a tree at 50ks all bet you it cost a hole lot more to repair then a 380 fan hiting that same tree at that same speed. I would think there is a higher chance that the t-cat would be stolen then the 380 if they were sitting next to each other.You start moding you machine it now is not the way the manufacture tested the sled in order to get aprovel to sell that product to the general public. Lets face it the insurance has no idea wheather you done you mods in a safe manner. Ever read whats printed on your sled -do not do this, do not do that. Do not operate with belt cover off. Their is a reason way the manufacture prints this, its to protect them from liability. If you make a claim and the insurance company has to pay big bucks and knows you have done mods I bet they will fight you in court not to pay out. My collision rate was based on the value of my sled. Generally more cc = higher value of sled. You guys won&#39;t like this but I paid $780 for full coverage on my 03Rev8 and $740 for my wifes 02Mxz8 and don&#39;t think that it was that bad. I looked at it this way if I hurt some one on the trail my insurance company will pay up to 1million dallars to help that person. And if my machine hits a tree they will compensate me even if its total. I think is a good deal for $780. If some one handed be $780 bucks I sure would not take the risk and be responsible to cover them up to 1 million $. By the way before you jump on me I do not work for a insurance companies or have any think to do with them. I just pay like the rest of us. This year including toys, personal auto, house, cottage, business liability, service trucks I paid just over $11000Cnd. Its just the cost of living in Ont and having some fun.

Here&#39;s what I think would happen. First if you have a claim, they may pay it or may fight you. It may depend on how much money is to be paid out. If you changed the motor to a bigger cc, there would be a better chance they would deny your claim. Either way, they only will cover the replacement value of the original sled parts or replacement of the sled in stock form. So you lose your money on the bigger engine and mods anyhow if they are damaged. Now if there is personal injury involved, then I bet they will deny your claim and they would win in court, because you violated your policy. Personal injury bills will add up fast with no limit. They will fight that from the get go, and that is the time when you need them the most because that more than likely is the bills most of us can&#39;t afford to pay. So for me, I buy the biggest cc sled I want, and pay the insurance price they are asking, and leave it in stock form. Do I like the prices they charge, NO! Do I think they rip us off, YES! Do I think we get our money&#39;s worth, NO! There&#39;s only so much we can do. I signed the petition.

See some of you answered it like I thought you would :angry:

If I were to install a 700 into a 600 chassis it is fraud to you WTF???

Yet you make no mention of fraud if you were to install pipes on a 600 which would increase the hp but the same

We are talking what 5mph dif

Let&#39;s say you gear and clutch kit your sled,you can get the same 5mph gain results

Don&#39;t you see what I mean? ???

3 diferent ways of gaining the 5 mph on top end

Lets through another wrench into it,Lets say the sled you bought comes with a 1.25 track stock,you install the .75 track which translates into a 3-5mph gain in top speed

What about if you port and polish

I could go on



A sled is set up for the average according to sled makers :D 175 LBS rider so someone like lets say me 6&#39;5" 260LBS :p the sled would have to be gear and clutched to get the same performance as the 175LBS (average rider)Or should I have to suffer because I am a bigger guy???



BTW my insurance says 401-700cc rate on my sled insurance policy :sarcasm: which I agree with all sleds should be the same rate regardless of CCs :sly:

BTW this has nothing to do with the petition :sly:

I don&#39;t think it is the amount of horsepower or what is done to squeeze out the little extra but more the cost to replace it. Most insurance companies if you tell them you have a 500 and throw in a 600 and damage the sled they only are responsible for the damage or cost to repair the 500. Just as if you add things to a vehicle - step bars, exhaust system, they will not add to value unless of course you inform the insurance company you have this on and should be part of the coverage - but be prepared your premium will increase.

I am not an Insurance rep and these are only my thoughts on the subject.

Silverbullet
98 Yamaha 600 SX

BTW I am not changing engines in my sled

I just want to see if any of you agree on what is wrong with this picture ???

Yes we should not expect them to replace the sled mods just the stock parts of the stock sled if you have collision.

I&#39;ll bet on two things. It&#39;s going to take a sharp adjuster to see your modification. In my dealings with insurance adjusters over the years, I&#39;d say you have about a 30 percent chance of that happening - unless you point it out to anybody at the dealership that the adjuster will be inspecting the sled at. Then all bets are off. It will be found.

If they find out, and the claim is for anything over 500 or so, it&#39;s going to be denied, on the basis that the sled has been misrepresented.

Point being that the reason you have insurance to start with is to minimize the possibility of a loss. Modify the sleds size, or misrepresent it in any other way, YOU GIVE THE INSURANCE COMPANY AN OUT. I think it safe to assume they&#39;ll use it.

It ain&#39;t worth it.

AL

When i was in grade 12 I co-oped at a small local air and when some bent a landing gear assembly or did minor wing damage while they were pushing it in the hanger the insurance company would send some one out have a look and settle the claim. But when we had a couple crash their 172 at the end of the runway and the wife got badly hurt the insurance got a truck hauled the the plane off to a site were they hired the manufacture to go over what was left in order to make sure it was in proper order. They will do the same thing with your sled if someone gets badly hurt.

Yep, that&#39;s insurance fraud, because you would have bought insurance for a 600cc sled, when if fact, you were running a 700cc sled. I don&#39;t believe that insurance companies look at actual horsepower, rather they look at the size of the engine ( bigger engine = faster engine) You&#39;ll be better off keeping the smaller engine and making it an "overachiever" :D

This would not be insurance fraud what would happen is if you have a 600cc sled and you put a 700cc in it and crash and burn what you are going to get paid on for the collision portion is based on the value of the 600cc sled so any mods that you do on your sleds you want to make sure you add that into your sled value when you insure it in the 1st place.
So you buy a new REV at 8000 then you pipe, cluth, and any other things you would do you need to put that do into the value of the sled.
There are some factors when it comes to the cost of sled insurance
AGE
CC
Where you are located
Driving Record
Value of Sled
I have a FIII 700 on my auto policy with some high limits of liability and I pay 129.00 full coverage with 250 ded What you sled headers need to ask your agents is to make sure they put a LAY UP CREDIT on your policy because how much do this things accualy see the snow.
You are thinking where is this guy coming from but I own a Insurance Agency and write alot of sled insurance
Think snow and DO THE DOOOOOO!!!!!!

What is a Lay Up Credit and how does it relate to the amount of time we use the sleds?

Premiums can be adjusted for recreational vechicles used part of a year or for seasonal use with out restrcting coverage for any period of time.
The lay up credit shall apply to the premium of liability, med pay, U/M, Comp and Collision based on 3 months, 4 months, 6 Months or 8 Months this means you can use it any time you don&#39;t have to contact your company every time you want to ride and it is covered while you have it stored as well as the time it is transit on the trailer.

Originally posted by permafrost@Dec 20 2002, 08:34 AM
I thought that exhaust modification of any type was illegal in ontario?
Where did you hear that? Who said it was illegal? The insurance company? Sounds like BS to me.

Insurance companies have a system so that it is imposible to fraud them.

They simply charge at rates 7 times more then it should be for the fastest muscle sled, for all sleds.

IMO, Screw them and put the biggest baddest engine you can find and run it. (809 Machz engine)

TTT SWRules

Hmmmm, never really thought about it much. I can understand dropping in a bigger motor as fraud, but adding go fast goodies should not be problem.
I think the insurance co&#39;s need to re-think the way they charge, such as;
Any sled built today is capable of at least 50 mph, if you hit a fixed object at that speed the sled is toast, no matter what the cc is. The price should reflect what the rate will be not H.P. Age should mean nothing!
When you go to insure for the first time with that co. you should be put on probation for a year then as time go by if you have a clean record you should be rewarded for it in lower rates and vice-versa for a bad record.

IMO the insurance co&#39;s arn&#39;t to smart either. How many people do you know that slightly bent their tunnel and the adjuster totals the sled? Then the owner buys it back for a fraction of what he payed for it and rides it! To me, that real fraud!

Mikedoo

Age should be factor just like cars btw :)

Why do you think adding a bigger engine is fraud yet the go fast goodies that add the same hp are not fraud???

Can you enlighten us???

Don&#39;t tell them and they&#39;ll never know &#33;!!!!!!!!!! :withstupid:

&#33;!! In all seriousness,,, the rates SHOULD be based on the year, and $$ value of the sled, taking into consideration the age of the primary driver, and his/her driving record. cc&#39;s or model shouldn&#39;t come into the picture.

As someone already said,, the biggest fraud is the insurance companies cashing in on the bigger sleds for no good reason. You Canucks are getting RAPED! I just hope we don&#39;t hve some insurance goof read these posts, and jack our insurance up! :angry:

:cussing: Mandatory Insurance is nothing more than legalized extorsion. :cussing:

They will pay for what the 600 is worth period, and the odds of hurting your actual 7oo motor inside the chassis is near impossible, unless you hit at a speed that kills you anyway. Don&#39;t worry about the add ons. :hallo1:

Originally posted by FreezerBurnt@Dec 21 2002, 03:48 PM
Why do you think adding a bigger engine is fraud yet the go fast goodies that add the same hp are not fraud???

Cause that&#39;s what you sign up for when you take the policy. The policy is worded on cc&#39;s, not hp; that&#39;s why you can add the goodies, but not swap motors. Swapping motors would be fraud, sorry. It&#39;s not like when you were a kid and added a bunch of motor or stereo mods to your car, and you were just s.o.l. on all the mods if something happened...the ins. co. would still pay you for the car, because that policy wasn&#39;t based on the add-ons you installed.

Freeze, doing add-on&#39;s is imaterial, even dropping in a bigger engine should&#39;nt even come into play. As said before, the price of the sled is what is important not cc. If you drop in a bigger more expensive engine or expensive goodies and smash it up you are the loser not the insurance company&#39;s.
As far as punishing the younger drivers, cars, sleds or whatever is wrong! Give the kids a chance to prove themselfs not take them or there parents to the bank because there a kid. If your 18 you are considered an adult, right? Then let them prove it!

This crap with insurance co.&#39;s gouging you because you own a high horsepower piece of equipment is robbery, just like gas stations raising prices because it&#39;s a holiday or a refinery plant blew up, we as a nation need to baned together and make these thieves drop to there knees!

BTW, I pay $202.00 a year, full coverage for my 2000 800 triple Doo. Why? Because I&#39;am 49 years old and I&#39;am supposed to be more responsible. Ya, right!

:withstupid: Good post Mikadoo. :)

So you are saying an 18yr old should pay the same amount of insurance as a 45yr old with the same car????

Maybe they should insure them based on years of sleds insured,

ie:

I have been insured on sleds for over 14yrs so I should get a discount more then a 37yr old who has just 2 yrs insured on a sled.read experience :)

Iknow we are a bit off topic

I also agree the insurance should be on price of sled not cc