1992 sks indy 500 efi - Snowmobile World : Your #1 Snowmobile Forum
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-09-2008, 08:25 AM Thread Starter
 
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1992 sks indy 500 efi

Hello,

I was recently given an 1992 sks indy 500 efi, which has a history of problems. most recently, it will crank and run fine, then suddenly it shuts down,after riding for a few minutes.. will not start,
have covered most of the bases, looking for wierd issue???
please advise.
thanks
L
linzetti is offline  
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-09-2008, 04:03 PM
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The same rules apply here as to a carb sled that wont start .
Check compression , check for spark, check fuel. To check for fuel being injected you can pull the top off the air box and put a piece of paper in front of each injector , crank the engine and see if the paper is wet. Just make sure the paper can not be sucked into the engine!!

If all the above checks out you also need to check the fuel pressure with a guage as incorrect fuel pressure will mess you up too.

Incidentally it is worth checking both the fuel filters, the metal one AND the plastic one as well as the fuel line inside the fuel tank as they are known to deteriorate on 500's .



Quote:
Originally Posted by linzetti View Post
Hello,

I was recently given an 1992 sks indy 500 efi, which has a history of problems. most recently, it will crank and run fine, then suddenly it shuts down,after riding for a few minutes.. will not start,
have covered most of the bases, looking for wierd issue???
please advise.
thanks
L
mrholmquist is offline  
post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-09-2008, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6
ok, have more now

I checked for spark. ok
removed airbox and checked for fuel using paper method. not ok

so now I will replace fuel filters, but what other things could cause injectors not to pulse? (ecu, etc??)

here is the weird part... previous owner hotwired the kill switch so it is a master switch for fuel pump only. that is to say when it is in the off position that is full time on for fuel pump, and when it is in the run position the fuel pump is off. this was the work around for the problem I am dealing with,, I think.

so when I put the paper under the butterfly, had to crack the throttle to place the paper, the pump turned on. still no fuel in this condition with or with out the make shift pump power switch in the on position.

I read in another thread about a runaway prevention circuit, could this be messing me up?

also need to test tps , will do this evening and post results, ,

Thankyou for your time,
L
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-10-2008, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
 
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ok. new twist, found a copy of the service manual... checked per diag flow.

I have 12.5 volts at pin 106 ok
but I have 11.3 volts constant at pin 11 (orange and black) it does not change when motor is pulled through.,
the manual is unclear if there should be no voltage until it is pulled through, or if 11v is ok if it jumps up to 12.5+ on the pull through.

I checked for ac signal from charge coil to acs, pulse is present.
at this point the flow says replace acs, if that does not fix it , replace ecu

any thoughts?

thanks
L
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-10-2008, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
 
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what a strange trip its been,
it runs, for whatever reason the acs to ecu to fuelpump/ecu power relays is fried,
I jumpered the power side of the remaining self shut off relay and it started right up.
what is unclear at this point is if it is the acs. it checks out according to the service manual meter checks. what ever . cant complain about a gift horse anyway.
Thank you for the suggestions. the paper under the injector test sent me looking for the right stuff.
L
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-10-2008, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linzetti View Post
what a strange trip its been,
it runs, for whatever reason the acs to ecu to fuelpump/ecu power relays is fried,
I jumpered the power side of the remaining self shut off relay and it started right up.
what is unclear at this point is if it is the acs. it checks out according to the service manual meter checks. what ever . cant complain about a gift horse anyway.
Thank you for the suggestions. the paper under the injector test sent me looking for the right stuff.
L

Hmmm interesting , you are aware that the 92 500 EFI is not equipped with an ACS?

You may be looking at the voltage regulator.

The ACS system was used from 93 on. Prior to that the ignition switch was used to "wake" or power up the ECU. There was a ready light on the dash and you turned the ignition key all the way past run to what on other sleds would be the "start" position and held it there momentarily until the ready light came on. After you released the key it would return to the run position and the light would stay on for a predetermined time.
This light would tell you the ECU was powered up and the sled was ready to start. You could then start it with the recoil starter.

Your sled is either a 93 or the ignition switch and wiring has maybe been messed up by the previous owner. Or perhaps you are just unaware of how the system is supposed to operate.

Have a look for this ready light and see if you can find it, by jumping power to the SSO relay you did the same thing as turning the ignition switch to the start position to wake the ECU. The other thing that troubles me is the fuel pump "hot wired" to the kill switch, this is not safe and must be fixed to operate like it should. If you were to crash the fuel pump would keep running and this could be a fire hazard.
I can provide you with schematics for both model years if you don't have them. It would be in your best interests to go through the wiring and repair it back to it's original operation.

Mike

Last edited by mrholmquist; 11-10-2008 at 08:58 AM. Reason: typo
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-10-2008, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
 
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Please send diagrams,
I agree about the fuel pump situation,
the key on this sled only grounds the cdi,
I did not remove the battery box but I can see a five wire acs below it,
(at least the wires match the schematics i have (for 1996+)

in the end the ecu was not turning on the self shut off relay..
this was evidently what was going on when they cut out the fuel pump relay and hot wired it to the handle bar cut off.

rest assured I have no intention of riding it in this condition, but was excited to find progress.
why the ecu is not actuating the relays control circuit is tied up in the relationship between the ecu and the acs. ?? (which as you observed, my understanding is weak.)

The tunnel data plate says 1992, but this is Alaska , so who knows what the true story is. The sled seems to match the 1996 service manual as far as wiring pin outs / colors/ etc.

any way, would gratefully accept further correspondence and advice regarding these issues.

Thanks
Mike
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-11-2008, 05:27 AM Thread Starter
 
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these diagrams are not much different than the 96+

so it is a 92 chassis, or tunnel as snogoers call it
but it is all 1993? or newer? under the hood...

so, what is the relationship between the acs , the ecu and the now excised relays???
my understanding is it works like this:

acs develops a signal when start cord is pulled,
if it is within limits, the ecu sends a control voltage to the two relays now now no longer on this sled. Relays engage, power is given to fuel pump, (relay 1) and ecu etc (relay 2,, now in tool box drawer). this function is now controlled through a complex piece of hardware called a dpsts. (double position, single throw) switch.

what I want to know: was the original problem the acs sending an out of range signal to the ecu, or is the ecu partially broken.. ie it will run the motor, receive data from sensors, but wont send control current to the fuel pump and self shut off relay.. (ssr also gives main power to the ecu,, at least according to the 96+ manual .
granted this sled is a 92 tunnel, but the wiring and components match the 96+ manual better than the info I have seen for the stated tunnel year.

if your sabre is sharp, I also have a 1994 arctic cat frankensled we can bruise our technical skills with.

m



please advise,
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-11-2008, 06:36 PM
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Well hmmm ..............sharp sabre I am starting to think we are going to need a
blowtorch for this one ....

Ok ................ ASSuming we are dealing with a 93 m/y due to the presence of the o/blk wire at the ACS ...................(so there are 4 wires there plus the ground rathar than the three plus the grounds found on the 92 system right) ..............

First off the ACS acts as a regulator/ rectifier with the adition of a relay to energize pin 11 of the ECU when power is generated by the magneto. This "powers up" the ECU and the ECU in turn supplys a GROUND signal to pin 105 which in turn causes the contacts to close in the SSO relay.

(Check for the presence of a ground signal here to verify the ECU is funtioning properly in regards to the SSO relay. )

The relay can now supply voltage to pin 106 and pin 126 which keeps the ECU powered up even if there is no ACS signal, the ECU programming determines how long it will keep the ECU awake based on temp and rpm signal presence. The fact that you have 11.3 volts on the 0/blk wire from the ACS when there is no rotation seems to indicate a fault with the ACS. I am thinking theere should be 0v here however you might want to check and see if it is coming from the ECU , it is possible that is just backfeed through the circuitry and end up being a normal condition

Perhaps the ACS was the real fault which the previous owner messed everything up trying to bypass.

The ECU will send a GROUND to the fuel pump relay to energize it and run the pump whenever there is a RPM signal sensed at terminal 10 . It should be a simple matter to check for a ground coming out of the ECU on terminal 113 when the engine is running. This would verify the ECU operation in regards to the fuel pump.

I think you will need to return all the wiring to it's original state and replace the missing relays (they are just standard automotive relays ) at which point my guess is you will discover the ACS is defective.
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