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Discussion Starter #1
The Jan. 2003 issue of Snow Goer page 34 states "...are you aware that the new, direct-injected two-strokes provide lower emissions, better performance, better fuel economy, lower weight and lower cost? There is a ground swell out in the world that suggests that four-stroke cycle engines are more "advanced" than two-strokes. Well, that's not the case. The latest technology suggest that the four-stroke cycle engine should become a piece of history. Time will tell whether the masses accept reality or the four-stroke hype."

I know they tuned the RX-1 engine way down, so who knows on performance. I know these guys are no Snow-Tech, but it will be interesting to see what Doo does with this technology in the future.

I don't know about you, but If I could get the same performance with lower emissions and increased mileage, I would prefer a lighter two-stroke.

Whadda ya think? 2 or 4 stroke in the future?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
That seems to be the general consensus! No ugly yet! Can't wait for someone to tee off! Remember, I am just repeating what I read. That's why I quoted them. I don't know where their source of information is. There are DI motors out there running, so I guess you could compare a 4 stroke of similar horsepower.
 

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Good work Bladeguy!
 

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I believe that direct or semi-direct injection is the way to go. You get the best of both worlds and they claim it can be cleaner. The next 5-10 years are going to be interesting in our sport.
 

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In my opinion,

Nothing will happen until the new emissions really take effect. When they do, the consumer will utimately decide on which technology they like best. You see, none of us really have to spend extra money on cleaner burning engines right now. Why would we? We get more performance out of the current 2 stokes. When all new machines have to be "clean", the manufacturers will once again spend gobs of money on the technology that meets emissions standards but also meets the tougher demands consumers. Until that happens, none of us will see the "true" potential of either engine technology.

Am I making sense?
 

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The problem I see for four strokes is long term use. Everyone has seen that guy driving his old buick with a ton of smoke coming out the tailpipe! Well what is going to happen when the motors on these new fours start burning oil? At least with the 2 strokes when they get wore out the rebuild is cheap! I for one would hate to get the rebuild bill on the new rx1!!! !!!
 

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I agree fully with you. 2 strokes are the future. I would even go as far to say they might show up in some small cars.

DI 2 strokes are not just a well running 2 stroke. For those that dont know, a di 2 stroke runs like a 4. It doesnt bounce around at idle and its smooth and consistant thru out the power. Oil also is not mixed with the gas until they meet in the combustion chamber since gas will not travle thru the case anymore. Oil is injected into the case by way of nossles (injectors) which are aimed at critical need oil parts. Becasue oil is now aimed at the parts that need oil, flooding the case with more oil then needed is a thing of the past. Gas is now injected at High pressure with a bit of an aircharge right into the combustion chamber once the piston has sealed of the exhaust port.

This will make for a zero smoke and close to zero smell engine that has every advantage of a 4 stroke. It will also have advantages behond that of a 4 stroke. Lighter, cheaper to make, simpler, Cleaner, Less moving parts, Easier to make power.

Either way Bombardier is the ticket to this technology since they own pretty much the licences for all the current formes of direct injection (Orbital, Ficht, SDI).

The other manufactors will toy around with 4 stroke for awhile but eventually they will be trying to play catch up.

2 strokes are the future. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Speaking of SDI - I understand DI technology. What is Semi Direct Injection? Apparently a compromise?
 

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I f there is ever a car with a two stroke engine it theres no way I would pay 20 to 30 thousand for it 2 strokes are fine in sleds but not in a car
 

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Originally posted by MXZRT@Nov 21 2002, 07:11 PM
I f there is ever a car with a two stroke engine it theres no way I would pay 20 to 30 thousand for it 2 strokes are fine in sleds but not in a car
I had a RX 7 rotary ,might as well been a two stroke. Oil is injected into the chamber as lube and burned with the gas and I could barley ever get it to pass emission test even when it was new! DI is only cleaner when you use a exhaust catalst. But that rx 7 was a 1.3 liter and you could pick it up with two hands, very quick!
 

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I think you'll see both types (2 & 4 stroke) stay in the sport.

Do you know how much the trails are going to stink with the 4 stroke exhaust!?!? :( Atleast 2 stroke smoke smells nice! :p
 

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Just wait till one of the RX-1 or any of the new 4 strokes start burning oil. Following that will be most enjoying.
 

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Your still on this SDI bandwagon Machzzz1, yes I agree it looks good, but the bottom line is, IT STILL BURNS OIL!!!! A well maintained 4 stroke dose not. Oil does not burn as easily as gasoline. they have 2 stroke cars in europe that are banned here. Why? because they cant pass emissions. So drop a line to Ski-doo, have them build an engine for a European car company, and maybe they could sell it over here??
If you read between the lines of your post,
This will make for a zero smoke and close to zero smell engine that has every advantage of a 4 stroke. It will also have advantages behond that of a 4 stroke. Lighter, cheaper to make, simpler, Cleaner, Less moving parts, Easier to make power.
how can you have zero smoke but close to zero smell? cleaner? still burning oil, what I think you mean to say is that it will get better fuel economy and emissions will be better due to it not losing most of the fuel charge as in todays 2 stroke engines where a lot of fuel is not even burned in the combustion chamber and spit out the exhaust port.

SDI, I will assume, is a great attempt at getting better milieage out of a 2 stroke, pointing the injector and timing it to spray when the piston is opening into the combustion chamber has been around for over ten years. The Mustang 5.0 has SEFI, has had it since 1988, when the intake valve opens the injector fires the fuel charge directly at the intake valve. they create a leaner mixture, without miss fires by doing this. Camero's later started getting it with tuned port injection 5.7 (350) when mustangs where smoking them.

They are just 2 different engines, one is built for one purpose and the other is built for another. You can't compare them really,, except for emissions wise, A four stroke is cleaner........................ for the record, I love the powerband of a 2 stroke and prefer them for a sled, but to me a 4 stroke last a lot longer and a lot more reliable. just change the oil and ride................ how many people here burnt up pistons on there 2 stroke sleds?? you rarely ever see that in a 4. One more thing, why don't you see 2 stroke propeller planes?? They are all 4 strokes, some with superchargers. Every engine has a different purpose
 

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I AGREE WITH MACHZZZZ1, 2 CYCLE SMELL IS WAY BETTER THAN SMELLING AN OIL BURNING 4CYCLE ENGINE, AND THE COST TO REPLACE RINGS IN A 4CYCLE ENGINE THAT HAS NOT REALLY BEEN TESTED ON THE TRAIL YET, I THINK THAT PEOPLE SHOULD WAIT TILL THEY SEE HOW THEY HOLD UP IN THE COLD AND BOUCING CONDITIONS. :cussing:
 

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Originally posted by Machzzzz1@Nov 22 2002, 02:28 AM
Just wait till one of the RX-1 or any of the new 4 strokes start burning oil. Following that will be most enjoying.
Isnt that the truth.........whats going to be the deal then ya four stroke lovers
 

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Lots of ultralight planes run a rotax 503 , a 2 stroke, and as far as reliability goes, we will have to wait cause the engine does have a lot more friction to combat in a sled than a 4 wheeler or motorcycle. So I'm not that convinced that it'll last a lot longer. I have 20 000 km on my safari and will probably do the first engine rebuild soon and I know a couple 583's that still have 145 compression and are at 15 000+km not to mention the good old 1970's 340's 399's and 440 that are still running with no engine work done yet.
 

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I agree with BLADEGUY. The RX-1 is an impressive 4 stroke but i think SKI-DOO is on the right track as well. Would you rather have a 140 hp 600 lb 4 stroke or a 135 hp 500 lb 2 stroke that puts out about the same emmisions. I know what I would pick.

I saw the RX-1 in action at a local grass drag and it was far from impressive. It was in the stock 700 class and barely winning against the twins. Off the line it was way behind, top end is where it would win. If you want a lake racer it may be the one to beat but i ride in the mountains and if it can't launch in the grass it is going to sink in the mountains.

I think Yamaha is getting to much attention and SKI-DOO is not getting enough.

Way to go both manufacturers but i think SKI-DOO with their 2 stroke that competes in emmision control and fuel consumption against a 4 stroke is farther ahead. Sorry Yammi but my money is on SKI-DOO.
 

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I dont know if you guys heard but the there is a ban on 2strokes by 2008 or 10 for manufacturing in sleds if it holds up or not is the question!
 
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