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Discussion Starter #1
As usual at this time of year, I've been reading every snowmobile magazine I can get my hands on, and I've been perplexed as to why most of the mags are testing the new Nytro alongside everyone else's 600's. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Never mind the engine displacement. Yamaha has successfully convinced everyone that their sleds need to be judged against smaller two-strokes, their logic being that hp is was matters, not how many cc's it takes to make that power.

Fair enough. Last year's Nytro was rated at 120, and was tested against the 2-stroke 600's. This year there's a vastly improved Vector, with 120hp, and a Genesis based chassis. As the motor was the Nytro's strong point last year it would seem that the new Vector should be ready to battle the IQ, the MXZ and the F-6.

Instead, most of the mags have been putting the 600's up against the new Nytro. Even Yamaha rates this as a 130hp class sled, and on the dyno it's peaking at 138. That's roughly 20hp over the A/C, 18 over the Ski-doo and RR, and 13 more then the Dragon 600. Hardly seems fair.

Finally today I saw that SnoWest Canada has tested the Nytro MTX against the Dragon 700. A much more fair comparison, in my opinion, as they are only 2 hp apart.

Of course, there's still the issue of price, and here it could be argued that the Nytro should be tested against the 800's. It's cheapest version is the same price as the top of the line Dragon 163, and if you were happy with a plain jane RMK 700 you could save yourself $1100 over the price of a Nytro.

This is not to say that I don't like the Nytro. If I were buying new this year it would be hard for me to pick between the Nytro, the RR, and maybe an RMK Dragon. I just think that running it in a test against 600's is silly, and it's not fair to either the 600's or the Nytro.
 

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Newfie, you sound like Johny Skeptical :wink:

Yamaha is certainly shaking everyone up with their 4 stroke promotion.

I think that consumers should compare sleds by price. Value for money. Brand x,y,z 2 stroke or 4 it don't matter. If I can get into a 130-140hp sled that suits my needs for a grand less so be it.

I think magazines should compare by application (trail, bump, mountain, utility, etc...) and horsepower. Displacement is misleading. Would you line up a 1000cc Nytro with 120hp (last years sled) vs 1000cc 170hp Mach Z or F1000. Nope. What about a 1000cc Apex 150hp vs the same two sleds. Getting closer.

The problem with the Nytro comparison is that there is no 135HP bump sled out there. The closest thing is produced by Polaris and it has 140HP.

As for the Apex, I think the 800cc 2strokes make the most sense. 150ish hp vs 150ish hp.

I couldn't agree with you more about the comparisons.
 

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snowest was putting the 700 dragon RMK and the Nytro mountain in the same class and testing them together. very good article.
 

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Don't know about the short tracks, however, the Nytro MTX is getting a lot of positive reviews here in the Alaska forums. Even the Doo XP guys seem to have good things to say about em. Seeing quite a few of them up in this neck of the woods
 

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Everyone wants to talk about weight when getting the 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke arguments going. The 4 strokes don't handle, they won't jump, they won't do as well in powder, etc, etc. We've all said it and heard it. Why is all that suddenly forgotten when they put the 1000 4s in the 600 2s class for racing? Or for the purpose of this string, a riding comparison? I agree that the new Nytro notor outclasses most of the 600's, but it is heavier...... You can't have it both ways.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Everyone wants to talk about weight when getting the 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke arguments going. The 4 strokes don't handle, they won't jump, they won't do as well in powder, etc, etc. We've all said it and heard it. Why is all that suddenly forgotten when they put the 1000 4s in the 600 2s class for racing? Or for the purpose of this string, a riding comparison? I agree that the new Nytro notor outclasses most of the 600's, but it is heavier...... You can't have it both ways.[/b]
So where do you draw the line then? If cc's aren't going to be the basis of a class comparison, then it should be horsepower, and not some complicated formula where more weight would allow for more horspower.
Everybody also talks about the quality of horsepower out of a 4-stoke, and the wonderful spread of torque. That should allow a 120 hp 4 stroke to be competitive with a 120hp 2 stroke. I even remember lots of people talking about the Phazer and how it wouldn't matter that it only had 80hp because of all the torque.

I think the magazines are doing as much disservice to Yamaha as they are to the other manufacturers by putting the Nytro in with the 600's. What they're saying is that Yamaha needs 15-20hp, and $1500 more to be competitive. And despite the Vector being so improved this year, it's not getting the buzz it should because the magazines are, in effect, saying that it's not competitive with sleds that are cheaper then it is.

All I'm really saying is that if a magazine is going to do comparison test, they should use sleds from the same class. And I think the fact that SnoWest Canada saw fit to put the Nytro head to head with the Dragon 700 says alot.
 

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<<<I think the fact that SnoWest Canada saw fit to put the Nytro head to head with the Dragon 700 says alot.>>>

I agree Newfie. But it wasn't long ago and a 4 stroke (of any size) in the 500 class would not have been fair....

They've come a long way. That may be the Nytro vs. 600 2s editor's point? Dunno! Now the question is, where will they end up in a few more years? Will they drop the rule allowing 4 strokes to run with 2 strokes half their size some day soon?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
<<<I think the fact that SnoWest Canada saw fit to put the Nytro head to head with the Dragon 700 says alot.>>>

I agree Newfie. But it wasn't long ago and a 4 stroke (of any size) in the 500 class would not have been fair....

They've come a long way. That may be the Nytro vs. 600 2s editor's point? Dunno! Now the question is, where will they end up in a few more years? Will they drop the rule allowing 4 strokes to run with 2 strokes half their size some day soon?[/b]
Well for consumer purposes I think if they'd stick to a relatively narrow hp and price spread it wouldn't matter what the spread in cc's is. Already, Yamaha has 3 different power classes with basically the same size motor (1000 4 cyl and 1050 3 cyl).

Really, when it comes to the magazines, they can justify any kind of comparo they like. But if they want to have any credibility they need to try and define the classes in a way that makes sense to the people buying the sleds.

I don't know why I let it bother me. So much of what's written is just a regurgitation of the manufacturer's propoganda.
 

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<<<if they'd stick to a relatively narrow hp and price spread it wouldn't matter what the spread in cc's is.>>>

That'd be one way of doing it. Another might include anticipated performance from a power to weight ratio perspective?

Personaly, I'd prefer they just give the information, correctly and unbiased, and let me make my own comparisons. I could give a darn about what they compare it to. You could likely make a case for comparing the Nytro with an IQRR for cryin out loud. JMO -Al
 

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Who really cares !!!!! We all have in are mind what type of sled we want , regardless if it's 4 stroke , 2 stroke , 1000 lbs , 200 lbs .........Who cares if it is compared to a bigger sled or not..If you have any type of brains and if you are going to fork out that much money you are going to do your own homework .........
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You could likely make a case for comparing the Nytro with an IQRR for cryin out loud. JMO -Al[/b]
Funny you should say that because I did see a head to head comparison of the RR and the Nytro. Forget which mag.
 

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Funny you should say that because I did see a head to head comparison of the RR and the Nytro. Forget which mag.[/b]

American snomobiler did it.

I like the way Yamaha does it though in reguards to HP in class. 80/120/130/150 makes sense to me. The nytro motor is bigger than a apex but make less power and is only a three clinder aswell.

Remember when you couldnt even find out what Hp your sled used to have it was like a rumor.
I agree 120 vs 120 .

The mags are a waste of money I still buy and the reports on the sleds are like reading a pamphlet .
 

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<<<<American snomobiler did it.>>>>

That's just so not right.
 

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:lmao:

No Mr. Daddy, I meant the mag doing the comparison. I hadn't noticed the spelling error.
 

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oh ! I thought since I only get snowtech and AS I figured it was that one.
 

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The reason is/was the other 3 where suppose to release CONSUMER versions of their 600 SnoXers BUT they renagged and only made 300 limiteds which are not for consumers as they were supposed to be

The 3 have 130+hp 600s not talking the 600 that are not racers but rather what the Nytro was suppose to race inSnoX
 
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