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yammyrider -

" maybe it makes them feel smarter pointing out things they think you do not know, i dunno."

wrong.  completely.

I know full well what he is saying.  I don't agree with him and we had a good civilized discussion about it, and it was one of the better threads I have been involved in.  He has his riding style, I have mine, and we both have our opinions on each other's.  No one says we have to agree.  I respect his opinions and he respects mine.  Al is one of the more articulate people on this board and conveyed his feelings on the subject very well.

I never attempted to point out anything he did not know, nor did I assume he did not know it - the man has displayed every characteristic of being a non-idiot.

There.  I pointed out something YOU did not know.  And I still don't feel smarter.

Cheers and Happy Sledding.

Scott
 

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Yes people that stop on the trail on a blind corner ar idiots but the point thunder is trying to get out is that running at high speeds with little dist between sleds going into a blind corner is just an accident waiting to happen.I have been rearended by people that think it is fine to run this close.At speeds people,I don't care who you are,DO NOT have enough reaction time to avoid a acident safely this is why I now ride in the back.I don't Like laying,unexpectedly,over the hood of someones machine because they were following too close and did not see the brake light in time to react with out slaming into the back of my sled.This is from personal experience as I did end up laying over the hood of a 97 zr580 because of this.
 

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One more post here, then I quit.

Yammyrider,
I think you've made a good point. There are obviously people doing what you are describing, its not hard to see. It is easy to see past them though, they have nothing new to add to the subject. They have fun sitting at their console, arms folded across their belly, trying to find things wrong with what you are saying. The subject at hand isn't even relevant. They don't have to know anything about it that way. It would be really neat to see some of these people spending as much time thinking about what they could add to a conversation, rather than the criticism. They want to talk about the rules, not about why the rules are there.

My attempt here was to create sparks to try to get guys to drop the defenses that jerks like those above evoke, and just write down what they are thinking, for all of us to share, without fear of the stampede of criticism. My major hope is that the few who actually had the balls to take part, had as much fun with it as I did. There were a lot of feelings brought out, and I'm sure a lot of thought went in to some of the conversations.

Thundercatzr, thank you, for the conversation, and the compliments. I look forward to the next time we find something to disagree on. I don't believe it was you that Yammyrider was refering to at all.

AL
 

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Going back and reading Als lil story makes me think.Seems to me Al say"Coming out of a corner and entering a straight section,there were older sled PARKED off the trail".Now maybe they did hear you coming Al and the child had ran out in the trail with the mother trying to catch(the kid). Did you ever think that JUST maybe she was a first time sledder? How can a first time sledder tell how far you are from them?Or cant deaf people enjoy the sport we all love also? Seems to me Al that if I would have came out of a corner and SEEN the sleds sitting there PARKED off the trail I would have slowed down for whats called common coritsey.So next time you say WHAT were they thinking,THINK YOUR SELF if you see sleds setting next too or off the trail SLOW down.Snowmobile safety is something we should all be aware of, not saying we all love the need for speed but remember this is a FAMILY sport also.
 

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So I lied about quiting. Letters like the one preceding are exactly what Yammyrider was talking about.

Snocat14,
Slowing down for the crowd, then braking hard for the people in the trail is exactly what I did and wrote of. What is your point? Or didn't you continue reading before you decided to criticize me? If you had, I'm sure you would have read that this woman and child were passed with plenty of room, at a walking speed.

My assumption on the woman was the same as yours, a first time sledder, but with presumably no guidance from the sled owners. Your point that the child may have taken off is well taken, that would actually make sense, except the woman was kneeling in the trail with her back to me fiddling with his (her) coat. If she had been chasing a toddler because of oncoming sleds, our eyes would have met at some point. As it was, they never did. I never saw her acknowledge my presence. Not relevant anyway. Point is they were in the trail.
(Sorry, that's still a pretty vivid picture in my mind)

The potential for having 10 or 12 deaf people on the side of a trail is pretty remote, wouldn't you think? I can't believe you would even say something like that, let alone reprimand me for not thinking about safety, that thinking snowmobiling was not a family sport or for not having "whats called common coritsey". Why would you think I've taken the time for the original note, let alone all the replies, if I weren't concerned about safety? Maybe YOU should THINK before responding to a note with such criticism, this one, or any other for that matter...

AL, Flame suit ON!
 

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I am surprised at the reactions that have been recorded in this discussion. Especially early on from Mr. Yarek and Thundercatzr. You two are veteran riders and I am surprised at how quickly you passed judgement on Al's story, condeming him to defending himself for the entire topic. I understand that the trail system in Michigan is well maintained and mostly very wide. What difference does it make at how he rides?? No one can ride only a sled length apart fast...there is too much snow dust kicking up and it is very hard to maintain a similar speed to the sled in front. Ever notice how things look closer from a sled when you are behind them than from a lateral view? I'm sure you have. It may have seemed like they were only 1 sled length apart. Al forgive me if I am wrong on that. If I am I would like to see your group ride!  

      Anyway, back to the original topic, which was simply avoidable obstructions on the trail. The only one of us that actually saw the situation was michahicks. The rest brought to the table their interpretations of the story, with many jumping on the band wagon built by Paul and Scott. There is no reason that Al should have to defend himself on this site.
      I've had alot of time thinking about this discussion and am frankly kind of embarrassed at the harrassment michahicks took. And that was from his friends! No wonder snowmobilers are under attack....we jump to conclusions about our OWN! What happened to trusting people to ride responsibly??
       I am not criticizing the reply's in this discussion. I am stating my thoughts just as everyone else did. It was a good discussion and revealed alot about the attitude of some of the users on these forums. Now you know mine.
        Now I am sure that there are those of you that can and most likely will jump all over this reply to have the last word. I will go on record saying that I do not think that michahicks is an irresponsible rider. I do not consider him a danger to the public. Please remember that this is all subjective, and that you can't always take things at face value. Especially stories such as these.

     And that's my 100 bucks worth. I believe that is my longest post ever, and may even rival those of Machzzz1


           Copies of my book "Our own worst critics" will be on sale starting March 1 through the snowmobileworld.com administration and Amazon.com
 
 
 

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seeing things different is what makes people so interesting and life exciting.  I mentioned before I enjoyed the posts.  and have learned from them to me that is the purpose of good discussions on any topic.    
what do you think rocketman and michachicks.  is it time to lock this topic??  or is it interesting enough to continue.
 

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one thing i do know is that when a cop goes to an accident he would sooner have one witness than ten witnesses. one witness one story, ten witnesses ten stories. ask a cop. so once again we all see things different.
 

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If everyone saw everything exactly the same we would all ride the exact same sled at the exact same speed on the exact same trail. We wouldnt have to worry about anyone stopping in the trail because we'd all have to pee at the same time. How much fun would that be? Not much! To each his own!
               Ryan
 

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It is differences of opinion that made this one of the more interesting posts that I have been involved in.  We had a great discussion.

Rocketman - Machzzz1 still has you beat for lengthy posts - I actually printed one of his and read it in the john once!  It was a long one.....

For what it is worth, I re-read the thread and stand by my posts.  As does Al.  We have agreed to disagree and life goes on.....

Happy sledding!

Scott/thundercatzr
 

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I agree 100% that the diversity among us is what makes this so interesting and the reason I keep coming back for more. I also believe that criticism, a lot of times, can be contructive, others times it can be mindless. I thrive on the contructive, it was my primary goal along with the warning to all to be on your gaurd for "situations". I believe that goal has been accomplished and there are still interesting comments being generated because of it. I have no problem letting them continue and would encourage any and all but may I ask that they be held until the entire string has been read (get it straight Bud&#33
and there has been some thought behind the comments added.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone that has responded. If I were easily offended I would have taken Paul's advice and deleted my note early on. Frankly, I'm overwhelmed by the positive thoughts and support generated for the most part. I also believe that new friends have been made, mostly because it has been shown that despite our differences, it has been proven that among ourselves, we have even more in common. Nice to see people sticking up for what they believe in. Good things follow when that happens.

I'd like to apologize for my last post, Snowcat14. Not for what I said, but how I said it. I've been encouraging responses from people with their thoughts with one hand, then ripping on them when they do with the other? It was not called for, and could have been handled in a much more positive manner.

One more point, then I'll get off my soap box, this is getting long. Rocketman brings up a good point about riding a sled length apart. Although we really were when we came around that corner, it doesn't happen often. We hadn't been riding like that long, maybe a mile or two. It was more of a sprint. I still do not believe we endangered anybody (yea, I know, Thundercatzr, except ourselves) for nobody but those among us knew it happened, or does on any other occasion we are able to. We are a safety oriented group and Rocketman is exactly right, there is a lot of snow dust generated by the time you get back to the 3rd or 4th sled. For the conditions to be right there must be enough wind coming from your side to keep vision to necessary levels.

So think about this, in passing situations, the speeds involved can be a LOT higher than we were running at, the distances between the sleds a lot closer, the competency levels of those involved unknown, the trails may not be familiar, and anger and impatience can be involved, yet that string doesn't seem to be developing anywhere near the passion this one has. What's up with that? Anyone?

Would you think it would help if I were to post a note that everyone could take shots at me over?


AL
 

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Al, should a woman have a kid in the center of the trail. No.
Maybe you should have stoped and told them about the danger.
I think that would have helped more and you may have found out something was wrong
or if they had a problem.

"People, I'm trying to steer this conversation to be about responsibility, and the
question is: Assuming you are comfortable at speed, have you considered, and are
you willing to accept, the consequences of your actions? Completely?"

You are accepting the consequences of your actions. But the consequences WILL impact much more than just YOU! I understand this COMPLETELY!
 

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Hey Al apologize accepted.I ment no offence by my statements, but without all the facts everyones going to have a input to your story or situation.I"m not one to critize people and I hope you wouldn't be the same.As I stated even Hearing Impaired people have the right to enjoy the beauty of winter in the mountains.And maybe they were inexperienced riders on rental sleds.And without stopping you accumed the woman and her group was drinking or drunk. I find it hard to believe that on a family outing that people would be drinking and driving sleds(sort of shows your kids its all right to drink and drive?).I have to laugh out load at your comment on how I didn't read all your story(went back and had to read it 4 times) to see where I missed the part of passing at walking speed ,sorry still cant find it there Al maybe you can point it out to me"lol".Here in Wa. State we dont have the trail systems you guys have(we have gromed trails which are logging roads that are winding and twisting roads getting us to open meadows or hill climbs)and as for us there is no speed limit either. We also enjoy the occasionally road racing so maybe we all have learnered something from the story.Like toydoc says stopping and telling inexperienced riders of the dangers of stopping on the trail when exiting a corner(which was never said which way there sleds were going,with Al and his group or heading in the other direction?).Had the other group been going in the opposite direction then (Al) they did do the right thing by stopping before the corner so that riders going in there direction could see them.So with this I leave my comments and no offence Al,just a concerned sledder like yourself(30 yrs experieced sledder).Toydoc loved your comments and makes me stop and think myself
 

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I dont know where this conversation is at but from reading micahicks first post my opinion is that micahicks was riding responsably otherwise he wouldnt have stoped intime.  

The stupidity belongs to the people in the middle of the trail.  No one stops in the middle of a highway and a trail is just as bad.  

When you need to pullover on a highway you go to the sholder.  Same should be done on the trails.

If in a worst case sinario micahicks accually struk the people in the trail i would still stand behind him and say its not his fault.  The snow and conditions change all the time and there is no set rule that says at 50km i will be able to stop in 10 m.  

If he hit them no dought he would be blaimed for it and probably in a lot of trouble and every anti snowmobiler would have a hayday.  But what can you do.  If i were coming accross the top of a hill doing the limit and theres a women and kid there I would probably veer of into the ditch but somtimes it just doest work out that way.  

Lets not kid ourselfs and pretend snowmobiling is safe.  Trail riding should be considered a extream sport because of all the people on it not using there heads.
 
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