[ZRT600MtnCat]

There is the new Yamaha RX1 1000cc 4stroke.
There is the new Ski-Doo 1000cc 4stroke too.
I have no clue on the Arctic Cats except the M1 which is the ZR 900 2stroke.

What is the story guys? Does Polaris have something coming out like those other two 4 strokes?

The Polaris Web site says nothing about something like this. I wonder if there will be.

 

[nosnow]

keep your 4strokes,its a bunch of b.s. they havent been out in the snow long enough  to see if its good or bad,its just hype for the manufacture. Have they had one out when its -40 below?? its not going to start. then it weight is a ton compared to a 2stroke.
its my god given right to polute this earth,than have some old fat ### drive around in his $100,000  ++ rv that gets 5 miles to the gallon,or a tractor-trailer that gets maybe 6 miles to the gallon,have you seen how many semis are out there??? When the goverment starts getting on all the corprations for there polution of the earth,then i will give a sh_t,till then give me 2stroke or give me death.

 

[SLDRDR]

Wow nosnow i think you just vented a little bit. After venting like that you probley feel you just had sex, you lifted a series load of your mind there.
The poor guy was just asking a simple question.
If anybody else wants to answer the question feel free cause i am interested to now the answer as well.

 

[slarson]

Just opinions......After Yamaha.......

I think that Cat would be positioned the best to offer a HP 4-stroker to the market next for obvious reasons (Suzuki).

Next would be Doo, Rotax builds some serious engines for the Aprilia race bikes, so they have the resources to do it as well.

I think Polaris is gonna have the toughest time unless they are in bed with someone like Honda or Kawasaki....in the last few years they have moved all of their apples into a more centralized basket (less Fuji engines and more domestics) and I think that their research and developement departments are probably spread the thinnest at this point and they have no known relationships with conglomerates like Suzuki, and Bombardier.......but it will be very interesting in the next couple years!

 

[michahicks]

Nosnow,
I would suggest you get your head out of the sand and take more of a wait and see attitude. It's much easier than cleaning egg off your face when you say that something is not going to happen, then it does, and does it well. Or are you privvy to exactly what the developers are up to? Attitudes like the one you display in your note would pretty much assume that 4 stroke development is at a stand still.
It should be pretty obvious to anyone who has taken the time to stay informed on the subject that a development stand still couldn't possibly be further from the truth. The thought of a turbocharged 1200 4 stroke in my 800 XCR chassis, with no difference in weight, is exciting as hell to me. The potential is there, wait and see?
AL

 

[EGXCR]

Hopefully they do.  I find it kind of funny though, how some people are acting like this is an earth shattering event.  4-stroke technology is far beyond what is found in the current sleds offering such.  It's just that now their finding ways to stay within a budget and offer a 4-stroke.  Let's face it, if money wasn't such a big issue in the mass prod. sceme we could have 400 lb' sleds w/ 200+ fairly reliable hp.
And why do some people get so upset over this, it makes NO sense.  I assume most of us would like the industry to keep raising the bar.  Competition will always keep the prices within grasp.  eric

 

[jackpinesavage]

All I herd from my dealer is that they are going to offer the prox  in the snowcheck! also herd rumors of a double a-arm front suspension in the works! My dealer said he herd of a 900cc also..

 

[AlaskanGold]

Polaris does have a new 4 stroke, I saw it at a local dealer yesterday.  It's called the Frontier, a 4 stroke touring sled - I guess thats cool, if that's what your into!!  By the way, by looking at it I didn't see the cc of the sled.

 

[ZRT600MtnCat]

AlaskanGold,

I saw that one. They get credit for the first Modern Day 4 stroke sled. Nice for general touring and family use, BUT..........

As Tool Time Tim Says: I Want MORE POWER UH UH UHG.

LOL

 

[SNORAT]

Polaris's new sled will be awsome with it's 6cylinder turbo intercooled cummings diesel.It will have 150hp & 600ft lbs of torque and it will go 250mph new chassis pipes coming out of the hood will be 6in in diameter. Handling will be from a twin I beam front end with 50in of travel and the rear will have a single shock set up with 60 in of travel.
this will be called the monster sled built for driving over the competition.
Polarises new race driver will come from the world of monster trucks ie GRAVE DIGGER.

 

[gt800xcr]

I read in one magazine that Fuji has a 4 stroker in the works, so something might show up here soon for Polaris.  But in all honesty l think that direct injection 2 stroke will reign supreme.  Cleaner burning than 4 stroke and better on fuel. Just look at Yamis outboard engines. They probibly got one more trick up their sleave and thats it. That will put the other guys back 3 years on both new technologies.  Just my guess.

 

[Machzzzz1]

Yup 2 strokes with DFI will be the way to go.  

michahicks you think a 1200cc turbo is somthing well imagine a 600 2 stroke triple with turbo.  It will performe the same.  Or if you have the imagination imagine a 1200cc 2 stroke with turbo.  

Turbos are cool sounding but do we really need them for riding.  The sad truth is that if 4 strokes are ever going to try and get as small and light as 2 strokes are today they will need a turbo to create the hp needed to compare.  But a blown engine doesnt last as long and in a snowmobile how reliable would that be.

 

[michahicks]

Sorry Machzzz,
I was grabbing pie in the sky(dreaming). Not sure how practical a turbo would be on a trail machine really (turbo lag would not be something I'd be happy about on a twisty windy trail for instance). I'm quite aware of the difference in how the 2 vs. 4 strokes are getting their power. My point was to keep an open mind about development possibilities. I'm convinced that the 4 strokes, or whatever the public demands, will reign supreme. Although 4 strokes have started out slow in other sports too, they eventually won favor and are very popular, to the point the 2 strokes become unpopular and are pulled from the market. If you were around in the late 60's and 70's , think about the popular street bikes of the time. The 3 cylinder 750 Kaw. could flat out run ANYTHING, till the 4 stroke 900 Kaw. came out. Then you couldn't give away your 750. Look at dirt bikes and quads over the last 10 years. It's about demand, not what has worked in the past. Stomp your feet all you want.
AL

 

[Golsovia]

Polaris may not appear to be aligned with any big engine companies but look at some of the marks found on Fuji engines and what is the brand name on  new set of Polaris/ Fuji rings or pistons? Robin! Guess where else you find that stuff? Open the hood of a Subaru automobile, that's where. As near as I can tell, Polaris hasn't given up on their Fuji engine source, (nor should they IMO.) Those have been good, reliable engines.

One more thing, Polaris' new 4 stroke uses direct fuel injection technology which is leased from Bombardier, the new owners of OMC which has the NA rights to the technology, so in effect, Polaris has a distant relationship with Ski-Doo.

 

[EGXCR]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (michahicks @ Jan. 29 2002, 1:35pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(turbo lag would not be something I'd be happy about on a twisty windy trail for instance)[/b][/quote]
You wouldn't have to worry about turbo lag on a sled because of the way their clutched.  Spool up would only occur at your engagement point, or close to it.  If the turbo didn't spool until say 7-8K, the power wouldn't be usable.

As for reliability, as long as the compression is low enough and the air/fuel is there, everything will be fine.  Even 4-5psi will yeild big gains on such light vehicles.   The problems will arrise when people try to up the boost w/o properly tuning the A/F curve.  Go lean under boost and you can easily do more than just melt a piston.  Detonation anyone?

 

[slarson]

Golsovia,

Polaris is moving towards getting rid of Fuji. There were two reasons they are doing this, first is the reliability problems with some of the Mid 90's triples which Polaris basically had little control over, and second is profit....all of the others are building their own engines directly or inderectly, and in this competetive world it is becoming necessary. My point is what leaps have you seen from Fuji engines (small ones under say 1200 cc) they have not been spending lots of resources on them (the newest Fuji engine in a Polaris is probably a 10+ year old design) for the simple reason that the amount Polaris buys does not warrant it, especially that they now build 50-70 percent of their own engines. And as for Robin, they are about 15th on the list of small engine producers, and have not done anything revolutionary. I am not saying Polaris cannot do it, I was just saying they are the most unlikely to set the industry on its ear in the engine department.

 

[Golsovia]

slarson,

I did not communicate very well what I had intended to in that last post. What I had intended to point out is the fact that Fuji (Heavy Industries) is responsible both for Polaris Fuji engines as well as Subaru automobiles. Now, I don't know exactly what connection they have with Subaru automobiles but you will see marks indicating the involvement of Fuji in some aspect of their production if you look under the hood. Exactly what connection Robin has, I'm not sure about but they, also, are somehow connected.

In regard to Fuji engine designs, the latest one I am aware of was the 550 fan which, to look at is largely a great advance over the older engines of similar design. How it has actually worked is another story and it was, IMO, one of the dumbest things Polaris has done (dropping the 440 and 488 fans for the 550) recently aside from some of the gas-sucking domestic engines they have concocted.

Since I'm going off now, I guess I might as well vent some of my disdain for the Ficht technology which Bombardier now has rights to (which are leased to Polaris for its 4-stroke Frontier). I have used a Ficht injected fuel engine for 300 plus hours. The one I have is an outboard. I purchased it for two reasons: one, it burns less fuel and therefore runs somewhat cleaner; two, it was lighter than similar powered 4-strokes. There were problems with the early versions of these Ficht injected engines. I don't know what changes have been made but the 2002 equivalent now weighs slightly more than its Honda 4 stroke counterpart. Injected 2 strokes aren't necessarily lighter than 4-strokes. The engine runs admirably during the summer months giving less trouble than carbureted engines. When it gets cold, below freezing, the potential for problems increases exponentially. I'm not sure how Polaris will deal with it. Hopefully they'll make it work as well, if not more reliably than carbed, and get the weight cut back to boot.

 

[pwrhws]

when did four strokes become so hard starting in the cold? It's not like tey are diesels.

Four stroke technology is the way the market is heading. I love the power of two strokes but like the added reliability of four strokes.
How many 1983 honda 3 wheelers are out there running around with a million hours on them that have never been rebuilt. About 3 times as many as 2 strokes with only 4500miles on them.

My buddy has a zx7 Ninja, with 14000 miles, every single shift in excess of 10000rpm. That is a lot of revolutions in 14000mi. That is reliable, never rebuilt.
I would like to see that reliability in a sled.

They will get the weight thing figured out as well. It is a matter of time, advanced composites will come down in price, That will allow more pieces to be made out of plastic as opposed to metals. Remember fiberglas hoods.

Be patient, in 5-7 years you will swear that you will never ride a two-stroke stink box ever again. Especially with synthetic oils reaching $30 a gallon.

 

[Golsovia]

Small ATV type 4-strokes are not more reliable, especially in the cold in my experience.

The small recreational 4-strokes are much more challenging to start in the cold than their 2-stroke counterparts.

Winter/cold temps are what kill Honda engines. (I suppose it's not quite as hard on Yamahas because they quit starting before it gets as cold.

)

They will get some of the weight figured out but forget 400 something / pound snowmachines. Who's going to manually start a multi-cylinder 4-stroke at -10 F? There's 20-30 pounds of largely excess and non-functioning weight that can't be dropped in addition to the already heavier engine.

If and when snowmobiles revert to 4-stroke motors, snowmobiling as many of us know it will be changed forever.

 

[pwrhws]

I that you may be overlooking the technology that companies like Yamaha, Suzuki, and Bombadier have available to them. With the advent of fuel injection, and multi valve design horsepower and relibility are destined for hi horsepower 4-strokes.

It's not impossible for a fourstroke 1000cc motor to make nearly 200 reliabile horsepower.  

This is a new thought for these companies and voodoo is abound. The thinking now is "outside the box". Nothing is impossible.

You should keep an open mind, roll with the punches, at some point you will be impressed.

Think about 20 or so years ago when wimpy 4 cylinder cars were becoming more common place, Now the Honda s-2000 makes 285 hp and spins all the way to 8500rpm, in a production package.

Another example would be the I-6 that is in the new Chevy Trailblazers. A few years ago, Who would have thought that an inline 6 cylinder would produce nearly 300hp in a production piece. Let alone the 640hp natural aspirated race version.

Look at small diesel technology, the Chevy Duramax also pounding out big numbers.

All of these were "impossible" as little as 10 years ago. Technology is weird as it has a tendency to feed on itself and advance in folds.

Never count out advancments.