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Tim,

For the most part, I don't have the slightest idea what half of your post is referring to. Many, many of the facts you present I am hearing for the first time.

Either way, it really doesn't matter. It seems apparent that the original 'five' founders of the ride were under the misconception that SW would someday "take over" the ride.

This is probably my fault. I assumed that the original "founders" of the ride would come to the logical conclusion that SW would have to secure insurance for a ride like this. Obviously they didn't. Oh well...

Like you said, it doesn't matter. Snow is coming soon...
 

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Tim ! im sorry to say that after downloading a java program (IE 6.0 would not work without it) and installing it, it was 9:00 and nobody was in the chat room so what can i say
 

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I just want to add that I was at the meeting and Tim is telling it like it was. There was nothing at all against SW. We were just using the name, thats all. We decided it would be much simpler if we didnt have a name for a number a reasons and voted unanimously to do so.
                        Ryan
 

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First of all I want to say that I still think that this is the best forum for sleds on the web. We just have issues to resolve.

I'm not sure that the liability issues were the big problem for me. I mean if SW was going to handle that then I wasn't going to worry about it. But I don't believe the long hand of liability has as much reach as some may think.

What about the shortening of the ride to include just Saturday? That was a problem for me also. A lot of us were planning to drive a long way to get there. Some much farther than me.

Now comes the part where I had the biggest problem. When a manufacturer contacted us with an offer to give us banners and maybe some certificates for merchandise to give away it got shot down because someone thought that they should pay for advertising. Sometimes you just need to let folks have fun and not let greed get in the way!!!!

I wasn't the least bit worried about SW taking over the ride. Didn't bother me. I'm sure that we will be having more than one get together this year anyway. But if SW wants to have a ride in the future then let SW do all the planning and legwork involved. Leave us out of the planning and we'll just show up and have fun instead of having to police SW's event to make sure they don't get sued.

If liability is that big of a problem for SW than I'm sure that they must already have plenty of insurance. I mean, what if one guy tells another to try a certain s/u on a clutch and the thing blows up. Who's responsible?  I hear you...Rediculous!!Saying that the posts regarding the ride had to be removed for liability reasons is...Rediculous!! One of the posts said right in it that it was no longer to be sponsered by SW. How much more release from liability do you want?! What if I want to ask a couple of guys to go riding next month. Is the post going to get deleted due to the liability? I doubt it. If I say how much it's going to cost to stay at a certain motel, is that post going to be deleted? I think, from what I've seen, it may be deleted being called an advertisement for the motel.

We're all just trying to have fun and make some new friends along the way. Why does it have to turn into such a pain in the butt all the time??? We shouldn't have to worry about being cencored for what we talk about.

I'm still going to be at the ride. I hope to see you all there!!!!

Later,

Keith
 
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Zmachman i was not there because the chat room will not open for me and a few others appearantly. see my post for the chat room. even at this moment i still can not log into the chat area.
And the meeting prior to the last one, i thought it was 8:00 in the morning. i Logged on and no one was there.
My log in problems have started since the new system came on line.
i have to get to  the meeting when not busy with work because i don't have the internet at home.
 

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Now it's my turn.

Idooski, I think you are only getting half the story. Let's go back just a bit.

Tim called me to tell me that Woody's had offered to provide banners for the ride. When I asked what the banners were for, I was told for us to display. I was also told that for doing this, Woody's would expect to be listed as a sponsor.

My response to this was that very few people would care about a Woody's banner waving in the wind. I said that if they did indeed want to be a sponsor of the event, they should step up like we were and help out just a little.

Then Tim informed me that they MIGHT be able to come up with a few gift certificates for a discount on their merchandise that could be given away. NO MENTION OF ANY FREE PRODUCT WAS EVER COMMUNICATED TO ME WHATSOEVER. He also stated that they might pick up on some advertising for the ride which would make it even more popular and even more people would come.

I stated that that is all fine and good, but we (SW) are the ones paying for the libility insurance for the ride. Having a manufacturer like Woody's promote the ride and provide banners would just increase the amount of insurance needed. Remember that noone but us was picking up the tab for insurance.

Idooski, the fact that you don't think that liability has a far reach concerns me. Don't think for a second that if someone gets hurt on this ride you guys are planning, that they are not going to sue the organizers. It makes a big difference if this is just a few guys getting together for a ride. Up until this point, is was to be an organized, advertised ride. Unless users are signing something, they will come after you if they get hurt. Not to mention the people not even in the ride that say they got hurt because of the ride. Anyone that reads the newspapers nowadays knows that people sue for anything. I will not risk the entire wellbeing of myself, my staff, or this site just because someone doesn't feel that insurance is necessary.

We (SW) had a VERY simple solution. We will just get insurance. We were to pick up the tab for it, noone had to even give it a thought. But when Tim suggested that Woodys would promote the ride and provide some banners, I admit I had my concerns. The insurance we were getting was based on number of riders and length of ride in days. This insurance is very expensive, but we felt that it was worth the effort and cost so that everyone could have fun.

I simply felt that if Woody's wanted to be a sponsor of the ride, they could have done a little bit better than offer a few banners. I never saw a benefit for you riders that would come with us throwing up some Woody's banners to blow in the wind. I felt that if they wanted to be a sponsor, they could at least help with the cost of insurance or maybe even cover the event on some type of "blanket" insurance policy that I know that they have for grass drags.

Soon after this I was told by Tim that Woodys' insurance policy would not cover rides, only drags. I told him that was fine, but I did not see any upside of having Woody's become a sponsor of the event if they could only supply some banners (think about it; how were these banners going to make the ride better?).

At that time I told Tim that we (SW) were still working out the final details of the insurance and we had a few manufacturers in mind that we felt we could get to help with this ride. Help with costs, help provide prizes, and help provide some materials that would really make the ride a fun success.

That is where it ended. Now, the reason behind the one day sponsored ride on Saturday was to just limit the costs involved. Everyone was still going to get together on Friday, ride Saturday in the "sponsored ride", then get together Sunday for some informal racing. The three day event was still going to take place, but SW was sponsoring only Saturday. Sponsoring Sunday would require another completely different insurance policy (for dragging), not to mention something for Friday if people were to take to the trails.

Tim embraced this idea and never had any problems with it whatsoever. At no time was there any communication that this was not ideal. Tim even expressed that he thought it was a good way of keeping the cost down.

As far as the ride goes, this is where it was left last. We were still talking over details with our insurance company and attorney, just getting ready to approach a few manufacturers.

Fast forward to a week ago. I read a post on OUR forums that everyone at the meeting voted to remove SW as a sponsor. That's ok. We don't really have a problem with that since it is really YOUR RIDE. But the way we found out about this NEW direction was a poor decision on someone's part. We were planning to put up some big money and time into this ride. It doesn't sit well to check the forums only to see that we no longer are a part of the ride. Had a user not asked a question about the ride, we probably still would not know that we aren't involved. I have not received ANY communications from Tim since the time we talked about the Woody's ordeal.

So, it goes without saying that we are becoming weary of this topic. The direction of the ride and the decisions that need to be made are no longer ours. The sole reason for the removal of the SW ANNUAL RIDE forum was just that. There was no longer an ANNUAL SW RIDE. We removed the forum so that new users would not get the impression that SW was putting on a ride. We feel that this is pretty straight forward and self explanatory.

So in conclusion, there really is nothing more to discuss about this. The facts are as follows:

SW is no longer involved in the ride, hence the ride can't be called SW ride.

The direction and decisions of the ride are no longer being made by SW. I am not entirely sure if Tim is still leading this ride effort, but you can email him at [email protected] as I am sure he is still involved to some extent. (I still wish he would email me)

Lastly, I want to make it perfectly clear that there is ABSOLUTLEY no hard feelings about any of this to anyone. So it didn't work out; no big deal. You guys can still have a blast all the same...

Just ride safe; ride sober; and have some fun...

Thanks.
 

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  I would like to talk a little about a possible misunderstanding.   I have been the "silent" party throughout most of meetings.  After reading these posts I can't be quiet any longer.  I have been involved with the so-called "ride" for almost a year now.  Tim and I have talked numerous times on the telephone and through e-mails.  Our telephone bills have been very expensive to say the least.   I would like to be able to talk to Corey also, but he has an unlisted telephone number and I respect that.  Tim and I tried last summer to get as many people as possible together to have an "orgainization meeting" in Grand Rapids Michigan.   We felt that it was a central location and I could get special rates on rooms, therefore, I booked 25 rooms and a Conference room.  I had to put down some money as mentioned in Tim's post for the rooms and conference room.   Yes, I lost $50.00 of my hard earned money.   I did not complain about it, in fact, it was never mentioned by me.  Water under the bridge right?  Now, I received  3 rsvps for this meeting.  Because Corey was not able to attend, Tim and I decided we needed a lot more people to organize and setup events.   We thought that Corey should be included in the decision making process also.   Now, summer is almost over and Tim decides that it would be nice to try to get the ball rolling once again.  Tim posts a barbeque at his house for all of those wanting to come to the ride and talk sleds, grass drag, and eat some good home cooked food.  Let me tell you his wife is a great cook and his daughter can bake!  We were hoping that Corey could make this event also, but couldn't.   Therefore we had about about 20 people there and two drove all the way from Indiana, 1 drove from Wisconsin, and the rest were from Michigan.   We really had a great time and hoped that more could make it.  That was a big cost to Tim.  I know that was a big liability for Tim also for having some grass drags.  Now, anybody that might have gotten hurt only had themselves to blame and certainly not Tim.   Even if someone had been hurt, there was at least 1 nurse there (my wife) and a hospital nearby.   Anybody that would try to sue another individual or persons because of their own stupidity or doings would have no legal bounds.   I know that all of us snowmobilers have ethics and would be stupid to try something like that in front of fellow snowmobilers and SW.   But, if liability is an issue to SW I would be more than happy to chip in and help cover that cost.  I know I would not be the only one either.  So really let's talk about the liability issue.   Let's have a meeting and get this great event going.   I can't believe some of the responses have I read about this issue.  If anyone has issues that make them upset don't you think it would be Tim, myself, and the other guys that started this great event?  I have left there names off from this response because I respect their feelings.   I can tell you that Idooski is one, and has spent a lot of time with Tim and the rest of us trying to get things orgainized.   You see, there have been a handful of us sledheads that have actually spent a lot of time working together trying to have a successful ride for "EVERYONE".   That's right! "EVERYONE" that wants to have a great time.  Believe me when I say it is a great time.   All we are asking for is a little help orgainizing this great event to have the best ride possible for "everyone" and not just the ones from last year.  So, do I think it is a good idea to have SW sponsor this ride?   Yes, I was all for it.   Do I think there is a liability issue?  NO, however, SW seems to think there is.  So if SW wants liability insurance maybe we all can help out with the costs, but if there are only a few people interested in riding, how can we?  Corey, perhaps what we need is more participation.  If SW is going to sponsor a ride why aren't they participating with the organizing.  I am not attacking anyone here just stating facts.   Two times you were invited to attend organized meetings and didn't make either of them.   Do you really what to sponsor this ride?   I don't really think you do or you would have attended.   If you would like us to come to your house or a central location I know of at least two people that would make the drive.   I heard you were in Novi at the Snowshow also.  I would have loved to meet you and talk to you.   I was hoping you would stop by the Paddlegrabbers booth and say hi, both Dan and I had name tags on.    There were a lot of people from this forum that were there that stopped and said hi and it was really nice to see and meet them in person.  Why won't you let us see you, or talk to you on the phone?    If you are a very private person, I understand, just tell us.   If this is the case then why would you want to sponsor a ride?   I am a little confused about these facts that I just spelled out, so please feel free to respond.  Remember, I am not attacking anyone, and I know that us orgainizers really want to have a successful ride and want very much for Corey and SW to be there for a great ride and fun.   Let's not let the "LACK OF SNOW" get the better part of our emotions and let's all take a deep breath........ and get this great event rolling for "EVERYONE " not just the riders from last year, but for "ALL" of us sledheads, and snowmobilers alike.  Let's talk this over and perhaps we can still pull it off.  If not, it would be too bad, but I know there will still be a "RIDE" no matter who sponsors it.  Go ahead and yell at me if you want, I have thick skin, but I still want to get this thing going!  This has been very frustrating to say the least for all of those involved.  I sure would love a response from anyone.   Piece out.   Kid rocker/ Dave Musser.  ;)
 

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First, anyone that would like to contact me can, just email for a number. You're right, I don't post my phone number on the site for everyone to see. This is for purely privacy reasons and has nothing to do with not wanting to talk with you.

Had I even known that you wanted to talk with me, I would have given you a number to call. But I haven't even received as much as an email from you indicating the fact that you wanted to speak with me. Sorry, my telepathy isn't real good right now...

As far as participation goes, I made as many org meetings as I could. I am sorry that my busy schedule did not always fit into your meetings. I think some of you forget that I also have a full time job that can get real hairy real quick, not to mention putting a tremendous amount of hours in this site.

Another thing to remember is that the org meetings' main purpose was to discuss what things people wanted to do. Never should there have been talk about liability issues. I am getting tired of even hearing this word. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone, other than us. In fact, had this word not been brought up by you or Tim, noone would have probably even known that we would have had it.

It is apparent that some users on here don't feel that liability should be a concern for us. To these people I say you are being dangerously naive. I simply can't believe that in this day and age that there are still some people out there that will dive head first into something without even covering their ###. Nevertheless, our attorney, with whom we give our full trust, has explained to us that insurance is not an option here, but a necessity. For those of you that don't believe this way of thinking, fine, but we unfortunately have to protect ourselves, and this is just the way it is. No other company in the world dares to put on anything like this without having some insurance. We are no different...

Once again though, everyone has to bear in mind that NOONE needs to worry about this. We have ALWAYS had the intent on picking up this tab, with or without the help of other sponsors and manufacturers. Remember, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the reason that the SW Ride was cancelled. In our opinion, the SW sponsored part of the ride was dropped for one reason only: We were not receptive to the fact that Woody's wanted to be a sponsor of the ride, but wanted to only offer a few banners and maybe a few coupons or whatever.

Look, we did the best we could. We also were in talks with others about this ride. We're sorry that you personally lost money on the org part of this ride. But, please keep in mind that we also have incurred some hefty costs.

So, is there any way to still salvage this ride? Sure, but I don't think that it is in everyone's interest that SW continue to be a sponsor. The participants in this ride don't care if it is sponsored, they just want to have fun.

Make it fun and everyone will end up having a great time. This is the ultimate goal here, let's not forget that...

Good luck guys.
 
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Well i read all the lengthy resonses to this issue and with out being bias.
I can see Corey's point from a business point of view.
Being sued for millions is not a nice thing to live through, and it is easy for a person to say "well if i get hurt i would never sue"
They are usually the first ones to sue when an accident happens.
People are human and when money is tight with no income, and an injury, funny thoughts' start rolling and court paper shortly after.
 
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