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Discussion Starter #1
I was talking with a guy I know who is a Factory backed Yamaha racer with an RX1 and I asked him about it. He said it is heavier than everyone is saying, makes less horsepower than claimed and can't get out of its own way. I'm sure it is a descent sled (but so is a MXZ 380 fan) but it is not anything I want.
Some people are saying that it is going to save our sport from the tree-huggers. I say if that is the future of snowmobiling, I am not interested.
Manufacturers left the triples of the early and mid 90's for lighter twins and are doing all they can to build a lighter sled. Now they want to go back to a heavy slug? They don't have to. Drop the 4-stroke joke and give me a 2-stroke w/ less smoke.
Ski-Doo's new SDI is heading in the direction I want to go - huge increase in fuel economy, huge decrease in harmful emmissions, no decrease in power, minimal weight increase.
 

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C'mon......its not that bad :D Wait untill all the after market guys have one of these sleds for more than a day and you might be eating your words. SWRules
 

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I believe that this industry will have a mixture of both types. I think they will both succeed in their own respect. I sure hope that the big 4 start SERIOUSLY developing some SERIOUSLY clean 2 stroke technology to keep weight down and power high. If they don't focus on reducing 2 stroke emissions and just cater to the greenies, we may be mostly 4 stroke before too long.
 

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Theres no substitute for a piped 800 triple. To me the noise and the smell is all part of the experience. Theres nothing like comgin home from a weekend of sledding and still smelling the exgaust on your jacket for days after.
 

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in todays market there is basically a machine for everyone,its the people who are bashing the rx-1 and comparing it to the rev and the firecat that are getting old,if you dont want an rx-1 because its heavy then dont buy one,buy what you want to ride,but also on the other sites the yammie guys dont help because they are gloating about how it will be the ultimate beat everything machine,i like the way skidoo is going with the sdi,that is a sled for me in the future,the rx-1 is nice,buts its just not for me
 

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I will not knock the RX1, its seems to be a good first attempt at the 4 stroke tech. None of us really know, it has not been run on the snow by the consumer yet. I know it is to heavy for my segment of the sport (mountains), but it will be good for the lakes. I do believe our future has already been determined, DFI will keep s on two strokes. Most are not aware that a DFI equiped two stroke won the emissions competition this year against the 4 strokes.


RIDE SAFE
 

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:withstupid: It is alot of talk i guess for something none of us have ridden. Weight or not we could all handle a sled of that size given the claimed benefits of 4 strokes. All i know is that for now i will stick with my two strokes
 

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I seen a new rx-1 and tried to pick up the front end, WOW!! For the guys who have to turn them around, good luck.
I will stick to mt tripple 800. SWRules
 

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This is how i view the whole thing.

4 strokes are the least efficient engine design. They fire only half the time.

2 strokes are a reciprocating engine that fires all the time and is a much more efficient engine design.

The most efficient is a rotary engine which might make an appearance but not likely.

The only advantage of the 4 stroke was cleaner emissions, and smokeless. well now that 2 stroke technology can not only meet but beat the 4 stokes in every category I don’t see a reason to keep 4 strokes around in sleds, atv, cars, and so on.

Yes it seems outrageous for me to say cars. But just think of all the time and development put into 4 strokes and yet they cant match the power of a comparable sized 2 stroke, they have no where near the efficiency of a 2 stroke and they no longer possess any emission advantages.

Not only that but the CVT trannys that are in sleds, atv, and starting to come out in cars are a perfect match for 2 strokes.

Then you have the people that say 2 strokes don’t make any torque, Well have you ever been in a boat powered by a 300hp 2 stroke and experienced how fast this one motor can send 2000+lbs boats right out of the water and over 80mph.

Honda rants and raves about there engines making 1hp per CI of displacement. HAHAHAHA any 2 stroke sled engine will kill that number.

Now you may think that 2 strokes are getting the same amount of research as 4 strokes but there not. There not because companies like Suzuki, rotax, Yamaha are all trying to keep the costs down because they will be using these motors for recreational vehicles and they have to save money.

Now Rotax/bombardier is the clear leader in 2 stroke technology having bought the rights to Fitch, Orbital, and there own RFI. They now possess the 2 best methods of direct injection systems and they will definitely move on from there. SDI is semi direct. It is not fully direct. When a fully direct system comes out it will offer more power then carbs, better emissions the sdi, and more appeal to everyone.

The advantages are there, the choice is clear.

2 stroke have a future and IMO will make a comeback and send the heavy, less efficient 4 strokes packing. When i turn the key or pull the rope on my sled. The feeling of having a 2 stroke reciprocating motor that is light and powerful is one that cant be replaced by something like the RX-1.

Sure the RX-1 may be fast, It may look good, but how much money went into making that engine, then getting it converted to run in a sled, and after all that it makes less hp then a 800 triple and weighs more then any other sled. And to top it of will make more emissions and use the same amount of fuel as the SDI motors in the legends.

So to sum things up I think what you have to look at is what you look for when sledding. Some like to ride to look at the trees and wildlife, some like to ride fast and aggressive, and there are some like me who love engines and technology and love the smell of 2 stroke and the concept of one. And for me a 2stroke is a part of sledding and if they ever get canceled out a part of sledding for me will die. This is why I march on and hope that my sport carries on the way I love it..


:sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:
 

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Sure will be nice when the spell check is on line. :doh:
 

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I wouldn't say that its doing either.

I would say, its making it exciting. Adding more options for us to look at when we purchase a sled.

Will two strokes die - I doubt it, with the advances they are making.
Will 4 strokes stay - absolutely.
Will I buy a 4 stroke - not today. not this year, but down the road, could happen.

I really don't understand the fear some people have for change. I really don't see it limiting our options, just adding to them. Technology will continue to improve, and we will be the ones benefiting.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. The manufactures will build, what the public will buy. Thats the basic concept of business.

FishHog
 

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I'd have to agree with you Mach.. to a point. The advantages of a 2 stroke are clear but I will argue any day about your point about torque and 2 strokes. They do make torgue but it is in such a narrow power band that at times it can be hard to use that torque. This is why at times we are scratching our heads trying to figure out the best clutch set up for the day. The RX-1 with it 4 stroke will be less affected by changing snow conditions because of that torque. It runs fairly clean and will in the future have efi which will make it cleaner. Personally my-self I like 2 strokes but if the right 4 stroke came around I just might go for it.
I don't much care for CVT on anything but a sled right now though. I owned 2 atv's with CVT's and I was very happy to get rid of them. Junk. I could never pull much with them and if the belt got wet... well that's enough talk about atv's on this site. I'm just gettin bitchy 'cause there's no snow here yet. Got words of encouragement though the other day. An old native trapper told me that this winter will be mild with lots of snow because the beavers have not made there hut's that thick this fall. Lord I hope he's correct.
 

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Well said fish hog.I personally am more interested in sdi 2-strokes
but that is me so i'm not gonna try and ram it down someones throat.
In my opinion all the luxury cruising/touring sleds should and will be
4-strokes in the near future ;)
 

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Fishhog the same could be said about the triples when the twins came out in force. The magazines beat the triples to death with useless facts and info.

This site is a good surveying tool. How come American snowmobiler and other mags constantly say the triple market is dead when there are a ton of people on this site that would be very excited to buy a triple zx.

What you will see if the 4 strokes gain ground is manufactures spending all there R&D money on them, trying to make them lighter, more powerful, cheaper to build. Meanwhile ignoring the 2 stroke just like they ignored the Mach Z and left it unchanged in the CK3 for so many years.

The commercials, New Chassis, magazines, Greenies, and such will all point us into buying the new 4 stroke, Or we could get an out of date 2 stroke in an out of date chassis that magazines give poor reviews to and there are no commercials for, face it nobody wants a dying sled.

My point is there isn’t room enough for both. Manufactures wont put the time into 2 strokes to make them better, they will put the time and money into 4 stroke to try and make them comparable to 2 strokes.

This does not excite me. Why go to a less efficient motor and spend money to try and bring it to the level at which we are at right now.

And judging by the poll results at the current time there are a lot of sledders that would like to see 2 strokes have a good future as top dog.

I dont have a problem with 4 strokes. If the manufactors could make both of them work then im all for it. However i dont see this happeing just look at seadoo, It goes one way or the other..
 

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I agree lay off the 4 stroke campaign trying to make somthing out of it that will never be " i dont think" and start working on a cleaner two stroke. If they are going to keep making four strokes, put them in touring sleds because thats all they should be for, but for guys like us who want performance sleds, the two stroke is the ticket, lightweight HP and torque, and like Powderboy said the sound and smell is part of the experience of owning a performance sled, and i for one am not willing to give that up.
 

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My thoughts would appear to be in a minority here. I have no strong feelings for either the ground pounding triple/triples or a solution providing the same performance in a 4 stroke. To speculate now regarding who will be supreme at the tracks 5 years in the future would seem to require a crystal ball. I say give them a chance with whatever new idea they think will work. After that, it's up to us. We'll like it and it will be a success, or we won't, and they'll try again...

'Til I find something better, that I can afford, triples will dominate my riding
preferences.

AL
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I realize that someone might want the RX1. But I think the only real reason someone would get it is for emissions/fuel economy. But if you can get that with a 2-stroke that makes more power and weighs less then why build a 4-stroke? Oh yeah, for the torque. Hmmm...if the sled didn't weigh so much it wouldn't need the torque. And I am fed up with everyone building it up to be something that so far it hasn't proven to be.
For those of you who say "if you don't want it, don't buy it", I am just afraid that one day that is all I will be able to buy.
Also, for you who say "the manufacturers will build what the consumer wants", I think you are wrong. They tend to build what the magazines push. I WANT A TRIPLE/TRIPLE IN A LIGHT CHASSIS. Than can do it but they don't because the stupid editors say a MXZ is for the trails (they claim an 800 twin should be enough - well it is until I get onto an open road or lake) and a Mach Z is for the lakes. Why can't I take that power into the trails. Granted I am not going to use it in the turns or down a tight trail, but when go to the lake I want to open it up.

This part is sappy but...
What this is all about is that I want my grand kids to be able to enjoy snowmobiling more than I do (softer rides, better handling, more power, etc. from technology gains). I also want them to have a season just as long as mine. I don't want global warming to make it so they can only ride in late Jan to early Feb. Finally, the less oil we import the better off we all are. I am not an extremist, I mean I have a V-8 in my truck, but if you can give me an engine capable of helping the causes listed above I am for it. The clean 2-strokes do this without compromising power or weight.
 

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I agree with most of what your saying, and as for the future, I'm as sappy as the rest.

but, realistically, how many years have the manufactures been improving on 2 stroke technology in sleds to get where they are today. It may be true the some 2 stokes being made this year (not before) can match the emissions of a 4 stroke.

But who's to say what they will be able to do with a 4 stroke after as many years of tweaking. Maybe nothing, maybe lots. Either way, I think the challenge to the manufactures will continue to put out new and exciting products for us to play with.

I for one, have seen too many things become possible in the last decade, that I would never have though would; to make a prediction on whats going to happen in the future, with the little bit of information we have today.

And if the magazines are calling the shots, maybe we should be telling the magazines what we really want.

FishHog

P.S. I like my 2 stroke triple also, but I won't say I may never ride a 4 stroke in the future.
 

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I am in favour of them developing both 2 and 4 stroke engines for our sport and it should result in better benefits to us the consumer.

Do I want a 4 stroke right now. No way, they are too new to our sport.

Would I buy one in the future. Quite possibly, if it was what I needed at the time and was better than the 2 stroke.

One area not mentioned is the longer life of a 4 stroke. It is my belief that a 4 stroke would last much longer than a 2 stroke. I would definitely be interested in a sled that I could expect to get 100,000 miles out of rather than 20,000. Most of us wouldn't even consider buying a used sled with more than 10,000 miles on it.
 
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