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I'm looking for an all around good option for traction. I have a ZR800 and want traction in the trail (loose or groomed trail). I also want to be able to run good on the lakes that have really hardpack to icy conditions. How does the 1.25" paddle track work with studs? What about a good 1" track with more studs? Is any protection needed for the tunnel if 1.375" studs are used? What do you think is the best?
 

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rode an 800 mxz this year with a 1.25 and 96 studs in the center only and it hooked in the snow great I'm going to one next year,maybe more studs like 144.
 

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1.25 paddletracks work awesome in the snow.  I will probably be going to one next year.
 

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one of the best all around on the 800 is a staggerd 1" camoplast with 144 studs 1.25 if you go to long on the stud and run alot of ice or road or even hard packed you will pull them thru and bend some

(Edited by machz69 at 12:20 pm on April 17, 2001)
 

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I can't believe how little studs everyone is putting on.  I have 192 on a 600 and i still complain about no traction.  My 440 has 96 studs (1.175 woody's) and it spins the track sometimes.  I can't answer about hitting the tunnel on your ZR800, but i would not even bother with less than 192 studs.

I can tell you this, do not place them within 2 inches of the edge of the track or they will rip out on a sharp curve on hard packed trails
 
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I too are very surprised at how few studs these forum users use. I think studding also largely depends on the area in which you ride and where I`m at were lucky to have some good dirt and some shiny ice, at best our trails here are always extremly hard pack snow and usually  very icy. 192 does not seem out of line for most 600`s my ZX 440 runs 168 and to get it to hook the coupling is loosend on it... but to each his own, It seems like everybody here is going to deep lug tracks for a traction cure all and higher speeeds because of the lack of the stud weight, but I don`t keep sleds open for more than 6 or 700 feet and I don`t see it.
 

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I too only race for shorter distances (600-1000') but I was beat many times by a few guys I ride with (on airport or groomed trails) because they had higher lug tracks. In conditions where traction was equal the sleds ran about the same. At the time I had a .87 Camoplast w/192 studs. I want to be able to hook up like them in those conditions, but also be able to race when icy conditions exist...maybe its impossible to be able to do both? In Michigan I can be riding in 2 ft of powder one weekend, and on ice the next.
 
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Quote: from ballsout1 on 5:39 pm on April 18, 2001
I too are very surprised at how few studs these forum users use. I think studding also largely depends on the area in which you ride and where I`m at were lucky to have some good dirt and some shiny ice, at best our trails here are always extremly hard pack snow and usually very icy. 192 does not seem out of line for most 600`s my ZX 440 runs 168 and to get it to hook the coupling is loosend on it... but to each his own, It seems like everybody here is going to deep lug tracks for a traction cure all and higher speeeds because of the lack of the stud weight, but I don`t keep sleds open for more than 6 or 700 feet and I don`t see it.


If you are using 192 studs on your 600, then you are using too many.

There is no reason to use this amount with a 600. I have been using 192 on my 1000cc TCat for 2 seasons now and don't have these traction issues. I am a firm believer that it makes a big difference in the type and size of the stud, as well as placement.

You may be better off looking at the type of stud you are using, and what applications you are using them in.

Some sledders believe that adding studs will help with deep snow traction. Obviously this is wrong, but it shows that there is some of us that don't quite understand the concept here.

If I can easily get away with 192 studs on my 172+ hp sled, then why would you need to use 192 on a 600???

Just something to think about guys.

Later,


(Edited by Thundercat1000 at 9:24 am on April 19, 2001)
 

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On bare ice I go with 208 1inch spears and won my class for season on my stock 600 Mxz and still spun a couple feet at 1 event, with the 1/2 inch lug speed track. That is drags tho trail sleds depend on carbide on ski's as to how much push you have in corners, 144 is a minimum for me to be content with on a liquid, and it is easier on the track than 96 or less, is not good.
 

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T-cat 1000 I am with you all the way.  I think 192 studs is almost too many.  I don't really care if I spin a little bit, I want the sled to be manuverable in the turns.  
 
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Quote: from 1000cc on 7:35 pm on April 19, 2001
T-cat 1000 I am with you all the way. I think 192 studs is almost too many. I don't really care if I spin a little bit, I want the sled to be manuverable in the turns.


Hey 1000cc,

Not trying to be an ### here but you would do a heck of a lot better if you lose the D&D clutch kit. Trust me, I have tested and testing these things. They are not even close.

Just my &#36.02 so don't get upset.

Later
 
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Quote: from Sharkey on 7:24 pm on April 19, 2001
On bare ice I go with 208 1inch spears and won my class for season on my stock 600 Mxz and still spun a couple feet at 1 event, with the 1/2 inch lug speed track. That is drags tho trail sleds depend on carbide on ski's as to how much push you have in corners, 144 is a minimum for me to be content with on a liquid, and it is easier on the track than 96 or less, is not good.


What is spear. 30 deg pick? 40 deg 60 deg? carbide tip, wedge?? Not sure what a spear is.

I am not being a smart ###, i simply do not know what a psear is and I am trying to figure out why everyone needs so many studs.

Later
 

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Tcat1000, even on the instructions to any set of studs, they recommend 168+ plus for the horspower a 600 puts out.  If you are not spinning a track off a Tcat, i would really like to know either how long your studs are, or how much you weigh.  In my example, i weigh 195 with 1.075 60* woddy's trail studs.  (Lets not start a brand bash now, the 60* is the important part)

I know engagement stiffness has a big part to do with it, but after trying half a dozen combinations this year, it spun every time.  

What kind of pattern do you run?  All in the center, every other on the outside, every lug on the outside?

I usually run every other on the outside section of the track with a pattern found in a Roetin catalog for 192 studs.
 

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It is a cross between a chisel stud and a pick. I put that many studs in to use all the horsepower, and you can stop in half the distance. Maybe I Hate loosing too!! LOL. If your going to the work of studding why not have the best traction money can buy.
 
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Quote: from JoeServo on 8:30 am on April 20, 2001
Tcat1000, even on the instructions to any set of studs, they recommend 168+ plus for the horspower a 600 puts out. If you are not spinning a track off a Tcat, i would really like to know either how long your studs are, or how much you weigh. In my example, i weigh 195 with 1.075 60* woddy's trail studs. (Lets not start a brand bash now, the 60* is the important part)

I know engagement stiffness has a big part to do with it, but after trying half a dozen combinations this year, it spun every time.

What kind of pattern do you run? All in the center, every other on the outside, every lug on the outside?

I usually run every other on the outside section of the track with a pattern found in a Roetin catalog for 192 studs.


Joe, you run nearly an identical setup as I do.

I also run 192 woody's 60 deg carb gold diggers with a roetin 192 pattern (slightly modified for additonal scratch lines.

It spun like a ##### at first, until I figured out that I was not getting enough PROPER weight transfer.

Does your cat come up high in the front. I didn't say I wasn't getting enough weight transfer, just not proper transfer. It takes a bit of tweaking and testing to arrive at the right combo. By the way, I weigh in at 205lbs.

Once you find the correct setup, you can really go up in engagement before breaking it loose.

I currently run my engagement at 4300RPM.

Whether you believe my NEXT statement or not is totally up to you, but I  prove it time and time again.

I RARELY EVER LOSE FROM THE HOLE.

I don't care if I am racing a 500, I usually get the hole shot everytime.

BTW. Setup is strictly for 600FT.

This is why I say that some people here are running too many studs. They are trying to solve a traction issue that really doesn't have much to do with the quantity of studs, just the rest of the setup. If more sledders would start looking at their suspension setup and not order 300 studs they would be better off.

There has to be a point where you can get too many studs, right? (bed of nails principle.)

I feel 192 for a tcat1000 is just right. If I can get mine to stick like glue, so can everyone else. It's not magic, just trial and error.

And during the season, I pull out those 192 60 deg gold diggers and insert 192 woody's steel 30 deg drag eliminator ice picks for the ice (all T-nut style for faster changing).

It also hooks up beatifull on ice with those.


Later
 
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Quote: from Sharkey on 8:34 am on April 20, 2001
It is a cross between a chisel stud and a pick. I put that many studs in to use all the horsepower, and you can stop in half the distance. Maybe I Hate loosing too!! LOL. If your going to the work of studding why not have the best traction money can buy.


Hey Sharkey,

This may be one of your problems. I'm not exactly sure what this thing really is, but if I was you, I'd lose it and go with a good 60 deg carb gold digger or something similar.

I have never had any problems with these and my track doesn't sit there and spin.....Running 192

Later
 

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Discussion Starter #18
When you talk of correct suspension setup for traction, what do you mean? (i.e. limitor strap, shock adjustment, etc.)
 
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Quote: from zr800man on 12:59 pm on April 20, 2001
When you talk of correct suspension setup for traction, what do you mean? (i.e. limitor strap, shock adjustment, etc.)


This is precisely what I am referring to. Along with front ski adjustments, and total height of the sled. All of these things are very important when trying to acheive good traction.

NO BRAND BASHING HERE BUT, haven't some of you guys heard that the MachZ's are hard to get to hook up? In racing, this is common knowledge as the Mach can be a pain to setup. But with some trial and error, they can get these things to stick. Not because that added 100 more studs, but because they adjusted their setup better.

Most Doo guys will readily admit that the Mach needs to be properly adjusted to get it to hook. This goes right back to the fact that MORE studs is not necessarily the correct answer.

Later
 

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i agree completly  with you i said it before and ill say it again too many studs is not good even at 192 you have to loose speed .not on ice or a road but on hard packed yes , if your dragging like you said 660,750,1000 then yes 192 is good again its more quality then quantity but as fare as you saying the mach is hard to set up ...not realy it is about the easiest i have ever tried. it tranfers so easily maybe what they ment was it was hard to set up for trails because they tranfer so easily that if you dont ride agressive you wont like the front up in the trails. but i do.on the cats its a little harder but i can be done. i still have 2 cats and both my brothers are die hard cat fans one rides a 97 t cat and the ohter has a 2001zr 800 and a98 1108 hooper sled  and i have set up all three. with the 97 just clutchin and suspention everone around here had/has a rumore that its modified but its not. so it just goes to show that it is all in the suspenting and clutching   ps. on the 900 we run 144 trail studs and a 1 inch stagered complast and the same on the zr and a speed track with 198 picks on the 1108.this sled has 240hp if i can get it to hook then you can get a stock 600 to hook. all it takes is time
 
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